Sundowner.pl Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 (edited) There was something wrong with the guns... they were firing too long so I clocked them. F-86F carried roughly 1602 rounds, ready to fire, total. 267 rounds per gun (give or take a few). F-86F was armed with AN/M3 Browning machine guns, that had rate of fire oscillating around 1200 rounds per minute. So it should take around 13.3 seconds of fire to empty its ammo bays. I clocked it and it took 24 seconds in two long bursts, so the resulting rate of fire in the DCS: F-86F is 668 rounds per minute - per gun. Way, way too low. Edited September 30, 2014 by Sundowner.pl [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] "If a place needs helicopters, it's probably not worth visiting." - Nick Lappos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svend_Dellepude Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 What if the guns fire in pairs and not all at the same time. How long would that take? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Win10 64, Asus Maximus VIII Formula, i5 6600K, Geforce 980 GTX Ti, 32 GB Ram, Samsung EVO SSD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundowner.pl Posted October 1, 2014 Author Share Posted October 1, 2014 (edited) I'm not sure I understand your question. There was no synchronization for those guns, once the guns got signal to fire, they were "spewing lead" till there was no ammo. Only limiting factors would be G pulled on the aircraft, and increased friction on parts that would warm up. For example those guns are still being produced by FN Herstal under the designation M3M with reduced fire rate to 1100RPM, and during testing, once fired continuously running through a 600rounds, the average rate of fire drops to ~1010. Now if you would disable pairs through the weapon selector, it should still take that 13.3 seconds for each pairing - because they have similar amount of ammunition. If that's what you mean, it should take almost 40 seconds (total, excluding time to switch pairs) to go through all the ammo. Although can't think of a reason to limit oneself by choosing only one pair of guns in combat. What I was testing was firing all the guns at once, at 1G. Edited October 1, 2014 by Sundowner.pl [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] "If a place needs helicopters, it's probably not worth visiting." - Nick Lappos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtPappy Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 This is interesting. In gun cam films, it always looks like Sabre pilots are firing streams of rounds, like a laser almost. By comparison, the P-51 fires a max of 850 rpm and certainly doesn't have as long a firing time despite having 275 rpg for 4 guns and 400 for the other two. So something is surely fishy. I suppose this would need fixing. It would certainly bring down MiGs in far fewer bursts. Can anyone on the BST team confirm this slow rate of fire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulres Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 This is interesting. In gun cam films, it always looks like Sabre pilots are firing streams of rounds, like a laser almost. By comparison, the P-51 fires a max of 850 rpm and certainly doesn't have as long a firing time despite having 275 rpg for 4 guns and 400 for the other two. So something is surely fishy. I suppose this would need fixing. It would certainly bring down MiGs in far fewer bursts. Can anyone on the BST team confirm this slow rate of fire? I noticed this aswell while modifying sounds for the F86F I got the math down to get the correct Browning M3 RPM down, but when compared to the Included M3 Browning sounds,it was Far,FAR slower,I think what needs to be nailed down is afew things, 1.Is there a correct amount of ammo total/per gun 2.If the game actually renders the bullets at the correct RPM as well Ive included the two sound files,the custom one i made,and the Vahnilla one for proof.F86.rar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archer7 Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Gunfire in video games is often framerate dependent. Check it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtPappy Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 True, it's worth a try. But even if it were the frames dropping a bit, would the frame rate not have to drop to half its value in order to halve the effective rounds fired per second? Or am i missing something? I notice almost no noticeable frame drop yet the guns still fire at essentially half the rate they should. Alternatively, You could fire into something that would record hits in the mission debrief and look at the time and the rounds fired. That doesn't need frames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundowner.pl Posted October 3, 2014 Author Share Posted October 3, 2014 Gunfire in video games is often framerate dependent. Check it.Was checking it both at the air base, and in the air, there's something around 10fps of difference for me between the two, and firing times were in error margin of operating a "stopwatch". [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] "If a place needs helicopters, it's probably not worth visiting." - Nick Lappos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundowner.pl Posted October 3, 2014 Author Share Posted October 3, 2014 Just being curious I opened the F-86.lua file, and surprisingly one of the first things there is a function for the M3 browning machineguns. { shells = {"M2_50_aero_AP","M20_50_aero_APIT"}, mixes = {{1,2,2,1,2,2}}, -- count = 267, } if tbl.mixes then tbl.supply.mixes = tbl.mixes tbl.mixes = nil end tbl.gun = { max_burst_length = 150, rates = {800}, recoil_coeff = 1, barrels_count = 1, }It appears that the amount of ammo is correct, next one is "max_burst_length", don;t know why it's set to 150, but it explains why we can't empty the ammo bay in one trigger pull - changed it to 267, and I was able to shoot through whole belt without a hickup. Now the "rates" is interesting, because it's set to 800... like in the P-51D, but in here it doesn't do anything, because there are more lines of code bellow for each gun: Guns = {--left m3_browing({muzzle_pos = {2.91, 0.42, -0.5 } , rates = {875},mixes = {{2,1,1,1,1,1}},effect_arg_number = 434,azimuth_initial = 0,elevation_initial = 0,supply_position = {2, -0.3, - 0.4}}), --up m3_browing({muzzle_pos = {3.09, 0.260, -0.54} , rates = {883},mixes = {{1,1,2,1,1,1}},effect_arg_number = 435,azimuth_initial = 0,elevation_initial = 0,supply_position = {2, -0.3, - 0.4}}), --center m3_browing({muzzle_pos = {3.04, 0.09, -0.59 } , rates = {688},mixes = {{1,1,1,1,1,2}},effect_arg_number = 436,azimuth_initial = 0,elevation_initial = 0,supply_position = {2, -0.3, - 0.4}}), --down --right m3_browing({muzzle_pos = {2.91, 0.42, 0.5 } , rates = {679},mixes = {{1,1,2,1,1,1}},effect_arg_number = 433,azimuth_initial = 0,elevation_initial = 0,supply_position = {2, -0.3, 0.4}}), --up m3_browing({muzzle_pos = {3.09, 0.260, 0.54} , rates = {688},mixes = {{1,1,1,1,2,1}},effect_arg_number = 432,azimuth_initial = 0,elevation_initial = 0,supply_position = {2, -0.3, 0.4}}), --center m3_browing({muzzle_pos = {3.04, 0.09, 0.59 } , rates = {679},mixes = {{1,2,1,1,1,1}},effect_arg_number = 350,azimuth_initial = 0,elevation_initial = 0,supply_position = {2, -0.3, 0.4}}) --down },As you can see, the rates here are set between 679 and 883 :huh: which is pretty close to the fire rate I've measured. Now the fun part - I've changed them all to 1200, and the rate of fire is now correct ! Why were they set to half the correct value ? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] "If a place needs helicopters, it's probably not worth visiting." - Nick Lappos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iFoxRomeo Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Sundowner, nice finding. These values concur somehow with the AN/M2 and M296(rof and 150 round burst limit) Version of the .50cal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_Browning#AN.2FM2 Scroll down to see the AN/M3. Fox Spoiler PC Specs: Ryzen 9 5900X, 3080ti, 64GB RAM, Oculus Quest 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derelor Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Reported as ticket #28111. Thanks for the research! 1338 - beyond leet ED Forum rules EN|DE|RU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtPappy Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Just being curious I opened the F-86.lua file, and surprisingly one of the first things there is a function for the M3 browning machineguns. It appears that the amount of ammo is correct, next one is "max_burst_length", don;t know why it's set to 150, but it explains why we can't empty the ammo bay in one trigger pull - changed it to 267, and I was able to shoot through whole belt without a hickup. Now the "rates" is interesting, because it's set to 800... like in the P-51D, but in here it doesn't do anything, because there are more lines of code bellow for each gun: As you can see, the rates here are set between 679 and 883 :huh: which is pretty close to the fire rate I've measured. Now the fun part - I've changed them all to 1200, and the rate of fire is now correct ! Why were they set to half the correct value ? I tried this and when I saved it, all the F-86's disappear from my missions. They won't even show up on the list of planes in ME. Instead, an A-10C takes its place. Of course I have a backup just in case and using the default .lua fixes the issue. What lines did you change to make this work? Did you use notepad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyntaxError Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 I tried this and when I saved it, all the F-86's disappear from my missions. They won't even show up on the list of planes in ME. Instead, an A-10C takes its place. Of course I have a backup just in case and using the default .lua fixes the issue. What lines did you change to make this work? Did you use notepad?Works fine with Notepad++, just tested it. BST will have to fix up the muzzle flashes as they won't shynchronize with the higher fire rate, but otherwise it works great. Guns = {--left m3_browing({muzzle_pos = {2.91, 0.42, -0.5 } , rates = {1200},mixes = {{2,1,1,1,1,1}},effect_arg_number = 434,azimuth_initial = 0,elevation_initial = 0,supply_position = {2, -0.3, -0.4}}), --up m3_browing({muzzle_pos = {3.09, 0.260, -0.54} , rates = {1200},mixes = {{1,1,2,1,1,1}},effect_arg_number = 435,azimuth_initial = 0,elevation_initial = 0,supply_position = {2, -0.3, -0.4}}), --center m3_browing({muzzle_pos = {3.04, 0.09, -0.59 } , rates = {1200},mixes = {{1,1,1,1,1,2}},effect_arg_number = 436,azimuth_initial = 0,elevation_initial = 0,supply_position = {2, -0.3, -0.4}}), --down --right m3_browing({muzzle_pos = {2.91, 0.42, 0.5 } , rates = {1200},mixes = {{1,1,2,1,1,1}},effect_arg_number = 433,azimuth_initial = 0,elevation_initial = 0,supply_position = {2, -0.3, 0.4}}), --up m3_browing({muzzle_pos = {3.09, 0.260, 0.54} , rates = {1200},mixes = {{1,1,1,1,2,1}},effect_arg_number = 432,azimuth_initial = 0,elevation_initial = 0,supply_position = {2, -0.3, 0.4}}), --center m3_browing({muzzle_pos = {3.04, 0.09, 0.59 } , rates = {1200},mixes = {{1,2,1,1,1,1}},effect_arg_number = 350,azimuth_initial = 0,elevation_initial = 0,supply_position = {2, -0.3, 0.4}}) --down }, F/A-18C - A-10C - FC3 - L-39C/ZA - Ka-50 - UH-1H - Mi-8MTV2 - F-86F - Spitfire - P-51D - P-47D - BF-109K - CA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtPappy Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Yes, I downloaded Notepad++ and it worked! Very excited seeing a stream of tracers rip through the MiG in a split second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genbrien Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Reported as ticket #28111. Thanks for the research! do we have any update on that? Do you think that getting 9 women pregnant will get you a baby in 1 month?[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Mobo: Asus P8P67 deluxe Monitor: Lg 22'' 1920*1080 CPU: i7 2600k@ 4.8Ghz +Zalman CNPS9900 max Keyboard: Logitech G15 GPU:GTX 980 Strix Mouse: Sidewinder X8 PSU: Corsair TX750w Gaming Devices: Saytek X52, TrackIr5 RAM: Mushkin 2x4gb ddr3 9-9-9-24 @1600mhz Case: 690 SSD: Intel X25m 80gb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAZBAM_ELMO Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Doesn't seem to be fixed as of late but i have not encountered any problems with the .lua online and i also use the clean canopy from Grizzly's mod and gun smoke delete .lua Know and use all the capabilities in your airplane. If you don't, sooner or later, some guy who does use them all will kick your ass. — Dave 'Preacher' Pace, USN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derelor Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 do we have any update on that? Unfortunately not... Let's hope it will be fixed in the future. 1338 - beyond leet ED Forum rules EN|DE|RU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team f-18hornet Posted February 26, 2015 ED Team Share Posted February 26, 2015 I cannot test it right but does it mean with greater rate of fire a target will get faster damage and get down faster like in real world? AMD Ryzen 9 3900X, GeForce RTX 2080Ti, 32 GB DRAM, HOTAS TM Warthog, FSSB R3 Lighting, MFG Crosswind, Win 10 Pro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtPappy Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I cannot test it right but does it mean with greater rate of fire a target will get faster damage and get down faster like in real world? Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derelor Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Issue is now fixed in internal version ;) 1338 - beyond leet ED Forum rules EN|DE|RU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagrat Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Issue is now fixed in internal version ;) Ah, the errant boy of good news... much appreciated. With the Mig-15bis out, it gets even more important. People are afraid to fly a "peashooter" against a big flying cannon... :D Well, at least I am, but I generally suck at dogfighting...:music_whistling: Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwiatek Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I tried fixed rate of fire for 1200 in lua but unfortunatety with these changes i can;t fly F-86 anymore both offiline and online? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KL0083 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 All you've to do is to save it as ANSI format. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwiatek Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) Copy i try that. BTW these line need to be also changed for 1200 ? { shells = {"M2_50_aero_AP","M20_50_aero_APIT"}, mixes = {{1,2,2,1,2,2}}, -- count = 267, } if tbl.mixes then tbl.supply.mixes = tbl.mixes tbl.mixes = nil end tbl.gun = { max_burst_length = 150, rates = {800}, ????????? recoil_coeff = 1, barrels_count = 1, } Edited March 2, 2015 by Kwiatek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtPappy Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 No, you can leave that line alone. Be sure to edit with notepad++. It didn't work for me if I opened and edited with regular notepad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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