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Low rate of fire for guns.


Sundowner.pl

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There was something wrong with the guns... they were firing too long so I clocked them.

 

F-86F carried roughly 1602 rounds, ready to fire, total. 267 rounds per gun (give or take a few). F-86F was armed with AN/M3 Browning machine guns, that had rate of fire oscillating around 1200 rounds per minute. So it should take around 13.3 seconds of fire to empty its ammo bays.

 

I clocked it and it took 24 seconds in two long bursts, so the resulting rate of fire in the DCS: F-86F is 668 rounds per minute - per gun. Way, way too low.


Edited by Sundowner.pl

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I'm not sure I understand your question. There was no synchronization for those guns, once the guns got signal to fire, they were "spewing lead" till there was no ammo. Only limiting factors would be G pulled on the aircraft, and increased friction on parts that would warm up.

 

For example those guns are still being produced by FN Herstal under the designation M3M with reduced fire rate to 1100RPM, and during testing, once fired continuously running through a 600rounds, the average rate of fire drops to ~1010.

 

Now if you would disable pairs through the weapon selector, it should still take that 13.3 seconds for each pairing - because they have similar amount of ammunition. If that's what you mean, it should take almost 40 seconds (total, excluding time to switch pairs) to go through all the ammo. Although can't think of a reason to limit oneself by choosing only one pair of guns in combat.

 

What I was testing was firing all the guns at once, at 1G.


Edited by Sundowner.pl

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This is interesting. In gun cam films, it always looks like Sabre pilots are firing streams of rounds, like a laser almost. By comparison, the P-51 fires a max of 850 rpm and certainly doesn't have as long a firing time despite having 275 rpg for 4 guns and 400 for the other two. So something is surely fishy.

 

I suppose this would need fixing. It would certainly bring down MiGs in far fewer bursts. Can anyone on the BST team confirm this slow rate of fire?

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This is interesting. In gun cam films, it always looks like Sabre pilots are firing streams of rounds, like a laser almost. By comparison, the P-51 fires a max of 850 rpm and certainly doesn't have as long a firing time despite having 275 rpg for 4 guns and 400 for the other two. So something is surely fishy.

 

I suppose this would need fixing. It would certainly bring down MiGs in far fewer bursts. Can anyone on the BST team confirm this slow rate of fire?

I noticed this aswell while modifying sounds for the F86F I got the math down to get the correct Browning M3 RPM down, but when compared to the Included M3 Browning sounds,it was Far,FAR slower,I think what needs to be nailed down is afew things,

1.Is there a correct amount of ammo total/per gun

2.If the game actually renders the bullets at the correct RPM as well

 

Ive included the two sound files,the custom one i made,and the Vahnilla one for proof.

F86.rar

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True, it's worth a try. But even if it were the frames dropping a bit, would the frame rate not have to drop to half its value in order to halve the effective rounds fired per second? Or am i missing something?

 

I notice almost no noticeable frame drop yet the guns still fire at essentially half the rate they should.

 

Alternatively, You could fire into something that would record hits in the mission debrief and look at the time and the rounds fired. That doesn't need frames.

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Gunfire in video games is often framerate dependent. Check it.
Was checking it both at the air base, and in the air, there's something around 10fps of difference for me between the two, and firing times were in error margin of operating a "stopwatch".

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Just being curious I opened the F-86.lua file, and surprisingly one of the first things there is a function for the M3 browning machineguns.

 

{

shells = {"M2_50_aero_AP","M20_50_aero_APIT"},

mixes = {{1,2,2,1,2,2}}, --

count = 267,

}

if tbl.mixes then

tbl.supply.mixes = tbl.mixes

tbl.mixes = nil

end

tbl.gun =

{

max_burst_length = 150,

rates = {800},

recoil_coeff = 1,

barrels_count = 1,

}

It appears that the amount of ammo is correct, next one is "max_burst_length", don;t know why it's set to 150, but it explains why we can't empty the ammo bay in one trigger pull - changed it to 267, and I was able to shoot through whole belt without a hickup. Now the "rates" is interesting, because it's set to 800... like in the P-51D, but in here it doesn't do anything, because there are more lines of code bellow for each gun:

 

Guns = {--left

m3_browing({muzzle_pos = {2.91, 0.42, -0.5 } , rates = {875},mixes =

 

{{2,1,1,1,1,1}},effect_arg_number = 434,azimuth_initial = 0,elevation_initial = 0,supply_position = {2, -0.3, -

 

0.4}}), --up

m3_browing({muzzle_pos = {3.09, 0.260, -0.54} , rates = {883},mixes =

 

{{1,1,2,1,1,1}},effect_arg_number = 435,azimuth_initial = 0,elevation_initial = 0,supply_position = {2, -0.3, -

 

0.4}}), --center

m3_browing({muzzle_pos = {3.04, 0.09, -0.59 } , rates = {688},mixes =

 

{{1,1,1,1,1,2}},effect_arg_number = 436,azimuth_initial = 0,elevation_initial = 0,supply_position = {2, -0.3, -

 

0.4}}), --down

--right

m3_browing({muzzle_pos = {2.91, 0.42, 0.5 } , rates = {679},mixes =

 

{{1,1,2,1,1,1}},effect_arg_number = 433,azimuth_initial = 0,elevation_initial = 0,supply_position = {2, -0.3,

 

0.4}}), --up

m3_browing({muzzle_pos = {3.09, 0.260, 0.54} , rates = {688},mixes =

 

{{1,1,1,1,2,1}},effect_arg_number = 432,azimuth_initial = 0,elevation_initial = 0,supply_position = {2, -0.3,

 

0.4}}), --center

m3_browing({muzzle_pos = {3.04, 0.09, 0.59 } , rates = {679},mixes =

 

{{1,2,1,1,1,1}},effect_arg_number = 350,azimuth_initial = 0,elevation_initial = 0,supply_position = {2, -0.3,

 

0.4}}) --down

},

As you can see, the rates here are set between 679 and 883 :huh: which is pretty close to the fire rate I've measured. Now the fun part - I've changed them all to 1200, and the rate of fire is now correct !

 

Why were they set to half the correct value ?

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Just being curious I opened the F-86.lua file, and surprisingly one of the first things there is a function for the M3 browning machineguns.

 

It appears that the amount of ammo is correct, next one is "max_burst_length", don;t know why it's set to 150, but it explains why we can't empty the ammo bay in one trigger pull - changed it to 267, and I was able to shoot through whole belt without a hickup. Now the "rates" is interesting, because it's set to 800... like in the P-51D, but in here it doesn't do anything, because there are more lines of code bellow for each gun:

 

As you can see, the rates here are set between 679 and 883 :huh: which is pretty close to the fire rate I've measured. Now the fun part - I've changed them all to 1200, and the rate of fire is now correct !

 

Why were they set to half the correct value ?

 

I tried this and when I saved it, all the F-86's disappear from my missions. They won't even show up on the list of planes in ME. Instead, an A-10C takes its place.

 

Of course I have a backup just in case and using the default .lua fixes the issue. What lines did you change to make this work? Did you use notepad?

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I tried this and when I saved it, all the F-86's disappear from my missions. They won't even show up on the list of planes in ME. Instead, an A-10C takes its place.

 

Of course I have a backup just in case and using the default .lua fixes the issue. What lines did you change to make this work? Did you use notepad?

Works fine with Notepad++, just tested it. BST will have to fix up the muzzle flashes as they won't shynchronize with the higher fire rate, but otherwise it works great.

 

	Guns = {--left
		m3_browing({muzzle_pos = {2.91,   0.42,  -0.5 }  	, rates = {1200},mixes = {{2,1,1,1,1,1}},effect_arg_number = 434,azimuth_initial = 0,elevation_initial = 0,supply_position = {2, -0.3, -0.4}}), --up   
		m3_browing({muzzle_pos = {3.09,   0.260,  -0.54}	, rates = {1200},mixes = {{1,1,2,1,1,1}},effect_arg_number = 435,azimuth_initial = 0,elevation_initial = 0,supply_position = {2, -0.3, -0.4}}), --center
		m3_browing({muzzle_pos = {3.04,   0.09,  -0.59 } 	, rates = {1200},mixes = {{1,1,1,1,1,2}},effect_arg_number = 436,azimuth_initial = 0,elevation_initial = 0,supply_position = {2, -0.3, -0.4}}), --down
		--right                                                                           
		m3_browing({muzzle_pos = {2.91,  0.42, 0.5 }		, rates = {1200},mixes = {{1,1,2,1,1,1}},effect_arg_number = 433,azimuth_initial = 0,elevation_initial = 0,supply_position = {2, -0.3,  0.4}}), --up
		m3_browing({muzzle_pos = {3.09,  0.260, 0.54}		, rates = {1200},mixes = {{1,1,1,1,2,1}},effect_arg_number = 432,azimuth_initial = 0,elevation_initial = 0,supply_position = {2, -0.3,  0.4}}), --center
		m3_browing({muzzle_pos = {3.04,  0.09, 0.59 }		, rates = {1200},mixes = {{1,2,1,1,1,1}},effect_arg_number = 350,azimuth_initial = 0,elevation_initial = 0,supply_position = {2, -0.3,  0.4}})  --down  
		},

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F/A-18C - A-10C - FC3 - L-39C/ZA - Ka-50 - UH-1H - Mi-8MTV2 - F-86F - Spitfire - P-51D - P-47D - BF-109K - CA

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  • 4 months later...
Reported as ticket #28111.

Thanks for the research!

 

do we have any update on that?

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Doesn't seem to be fixed as of late but i have not encountered any problems with the .lua online and i also use the clean canopy from Grizzly's mod and gun smoke delete .lua

Know and use all the capabilities in your airplane. If you don't, sooner or later, some guy who does use them all will kick your ass.

 

— Dave 'Preacher' Pace, USN.

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Issue is now fixed in internal version ;)

Ah, the errant boy of good news... much appreciated. With the Mig-15bis out, it gets even more important. People are afraid to fly a "peashooter" against a big flying cannon... :D

 

Well, at least I am, but I generally suck at dogfighting...:music_whistling:

Shagrat

 

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Copy i try that.

 

BTW these line need to be also changed for 1200 ?

 

{

shells = {"M2_50_aero_AP","M20_50_aero_APIT"},

mixes = {{1,2,2,1,2,2}}, --

count = 267,

}

if tbl.mixes then

tbl.supply.mixes = tbl.mixes

tbl.mixes = nil

end

tbl.gun =

{

max_burst_length = 150,

rates = {800}, ?????????

recoil_coeff = 1,

barrels_count = 1,

}


Edited by Kwiatek
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