Beyond Visual Range Struggles

[TAW_Blaze]

As a matter of fact, tactics are based on your SA, even in a 1v1 scenario. In that case, one might refer to SA as knowing his opponent's plane, weapons, etc.

[Maximus_Lazarus]

heheh , to OP , yeah some people are super sneaky :mad:

 

Just remember this :

 

First look how many people are in the server.

If it's packed, you're gonna have to be super carefull . At the slightest uncomfortable feeling of "ok what's happening here ? " or "where did he go ?" , you turn around cause you're about to get smoked.

 

If you are 1 vs 1 , and you both get within firing range, you simply have to assume he has fired as soon as he's within range. I would suggest you learn what that distance is on your radar screen.

Start snaking from that distance even if you are not sure he even fired . Then, when you are comfortable in range yourself, you can fire a missile yourself, guide if for a few seconds, and then get the hell out of there :pilotfly:

 

If you're tracking a target, and he's doing weird stuff like staying just outside/inside your firing range, not engaging you, and you feel like you are kind of trailing him, drop him as a target, quickly scan high and low cause there's probably a buddy of his trying to kill you.

If you can't find the other target very quickly : Turn around and GTFO :)

 

 

I think you can outrun missiles fired at you from 10 miles and up , maybe even closer so don't start panicing right away when a missile is fired at you, as long as you know at what distance it was fired from.

 

Basically , if you suck like me, you need to be super paranoid all the time. The second you feel like you're not in control > GTFO !

 

 

oh p.s :

 

In editor, fly against a single aircraft. Turn on labels, then fight him to get a good idea of what the missile's capabililties are, and how easy it is to defeat a missile fired from longish range.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Maximus_Lazarus

[[Knight]]

If there is no secret then do tell at what altitudes those ranges apply to.

 

Lets just say the test were done at 45k. even in the sim 120-c cant get a kill from 30 miles. Supposedly the operational rang is 57nm and operational means KILL otherwise the missile is not operating.

Edited April 29, 2014 by [Knight]

[GGTharos]

AIM-7F Raero at 40000' is 53nm. We know this, we have the data for this missile. Its practical range is constrained by the seeker which needs to see the SARH reflection all the way from the launch to terminal intercept. This translates into a sea level Raero of about 20nm.

 

Raero for AIM-7MH is similar or a little better (same rocket type, could be more powerful propellant).

 

AIM-120A requirement is greater range and average speed to target than AIM-7MH.

 

In other words, under perfect circumstances, in game, the AIM-120B should be shooting down targets at least 53nm away at 40000' from M1 launch.

 

AIM-120C should be reaching a little further away. And with a Mach 2 and high altitude launch, you should not be surprised to see an Raero of 80nm.

 

Another small point of information is that the SLAMRAAM was required to provide a 10nm umbrella ... that is from a ground start at zero airspeed, and against aircraft performing certain maneuvers.

 

Lets just say the test were done at 45k. even in the sim 120-c cant get a kill from 30 miles. Supposedly the operational rang is 57nm and operational means KILL otherwise the missile is not operating.

Edited April 29, 2014 by GGTharos

[RIPTIDE]

:megalol:

 

IF you are nearly as smart as you say you are, I'd say go and figure it out on your own, lol. Obviously you don't need help, obviously you need to proclaim a higher brain function, which somehow makes you special, because a lot of ppl I know with such brains kind of really don't need to do that.

 

But if you would be really that smart, you'd probably had that one figured out already.

 

With that attitude I'd advise no one to give you the slightest hint and you sure as hell won't get one from the 104th, who likes to give help to just about everyone. :doh:

Well Ironmike, if he has Autism (so many claim to have it) it precludes him from having standard social skills and he may come across as arrogant. I always would try to consider that too. The bad news is, that those afflicted with such may also find that their thinking is highly compartmentalised and rather rigid when it comes to things in general. This may turn out to affect his ability to translate what he knows into performance. Let's see does he come back with some thoughts on his tracks, if he has any.

[NineLine]

Ok guys... back on the topic of BVR. This conversation is drifting away badly.

[Oberst Zeisig]

I understand the aircrafts very deeply. I know the capabilities of the APG-63/70, the N019, and N001. I know the TWRs of the planes, the weights of the missiles and fuel tanks, the range and speed figures, etc. I don't need a technical manual because I am basically a walking one. That's why I asked to not give one. I can maintain SA very well in CAC and BVR. I can anticipate what the bandit is thinking in BVR. I have High-functioning autism; My brain works at lightspeed. I can process more information in a second than most people who actually train their brains can. I can keep my SA in BVR.

 

I don't need a damn situational awareness lecture, I need tactics

 

Then use Your superbrain and develop Your own tactics. Tactics is about being unpredictable. If a tactic is posted here it's not a good tactic anymore.

[TAW_Blaze]

If a tactic is posted here it's not a good tactic anymore.

 

Absolutely not. Following that logic basic 2v1, 1v1, or any general tactics are worthless, which is completely wrong.

 

The worth of a tactic lies between you and the opponent, if he does not know how to counter a certain tactic or fails to counter it he'll be in trouble.

[NineLine]

Yup, I agree, ever move has a counter move... to think you are some how protecting an advantage by not helping others learn these tactics in this forum is just a little silly.

[Mandrake5]

@OP: don't worry if you can't hit anything with the Aim-120, as of 1.2.8 they're still effectively close range missiles - draggy, slow and completely useless >10nm. Even then, if the target knows even basic evasion you need to be within 6nm for a kill with the 120C, and 3nm for the 120B (I pretty much use Aim120B's like sidewinders :( )

 

Hopefully the AIM-120 will become an actual BVR weapon again 'soon', but then I've been holding my breath since 1.2.2.... beginning to wonder if it's even possible to fix them in the current engine...who knows.

 

Can't speak for the Russian missiles as I haven't tested them.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Mandrake5

[Oberst Zeisig]

Yup, I agree, ever move has a counter move... to think you are some how protecting an advantage by not helping others learn these tactics in this forum is just a little silly.

 

I don´t think it´s wrong to advice others on the forum about tactics. Maybe it was more my style of learning on my own. I´d just say it´s better to just know all the basics of bvr combat and the develop your own tactics like an own style than just take over told procedures as the theme is too complex in my opinion to just apply some figured out procedures .... especially for a sperbrain ;-).

 

But maybe it´s just my own style as I´ve never flown in a squadron.

[NineLine]

especially for a sperbrain ;-).

 

Spelling mistakes aside, we get it, we can quit with the name calling.

 

As far as learning goes, I love figuring out stuff on my own, but nothing beats help from someone more knowledgable on the subject... But your statement was that a tactic shown here is no longer a tactic... again, its simply not true.

[Oberst Zeisig]

Spelling mistakes aside, we get it, we can quit with the name calling.

 

As far as learning goes, I love figuring out stuff on my own, but nothing beats help from someone more knowledgable on the subject... But your statement was that a tactic shown here is no longer a tactic... again, its simply not true.

 

Sure I take back that special phrase. And again too I think it´s more my style of learning, I´m catching more and more the benefits of experienced advice too on my own btw.

[*Rage*]

@OP: don't worry if you can't hit anything with the Aim-120, as of 1.2.8 they're still effectively close range missiles - draggy, slow and completely useless >10nm. Even then, if the target knows even basic evasion you need to be within 6nm for a kill with the 120C, and 3nm for the 120B (I pretty much use Aim120B's like sidewinders :( )

 

Hopefully the AIM-120 will become an actual BVR weapon again 'soon', but then I've been holding my breath since 1.2.2.... beginning to wonder if it's even possible to fix them in the current engine...who knows.

 

Can't speak for the Russian missiles as I haven't tested them.

 

In what context? Against drones? At what speeds and altitudes are you launching? What is your adversaries speed, altitude and aspect? AIM120 is by far and away is the most lethal A2A missile currently in the game (as it should be). By comparison russian missiles are very poor. Online pilots are not drones. Good pilots will react to your moves and will try not to get within 10nm of an active carrying adversary.

[GGTharos]

Missiles are way under-modeled in kinematics. I think just the AIM-9 and R-73 might be behaving properly.

 

In what context? Against drones? At what speeds and altitudes are you launching? What is your adversaries speed, altitude and aspect? AIM120 is by far and away is the most lethal A2A missile currently in the game (as it should be). By comparison russian missiles are very poor. Online pilots are not drones. Good pilots will react to your moves and will try not to get within 10nm of an active carrying adversary.

[TAW_Blaze]

Missiles are way under-modeled in kinematics. I think just the AIM-9 and R-73 might be behaving properly.

 

They also turn into ICBMs now and then. Sometimes they also miss targets that fly straight into them, for no reason. (I mean, the slammer)

[Frostie]

I don´t think it´s wrong to advice others on the forum about tactics. Maybe it was more my style of learning on my own. I´d just say it´s better to just know all the basics of bvr combat and the develop your own tactics like an own style than just take over told procedures as the theme is too complex in my opinion to just apply some figured out procedures .... especially for a sperbrain ;-).

The problem that can occur from self taught in game is that you may develop quirks that may only be associated with a certain game mechanic rather than actually applying a more realistic approach to the situation. The later will stand you in good stead across the board not just for that current version etc.

 

I know a lot of people that did this in Flaming Cliffs, then got disgruntled and quit when FC2 came out.

[jkeiltaylor]

http://flankertraining.com/ironhand/a2a.htm

 

This!!!

[Oberst Zeisig]

@IronMike, Fully agreed with this post! :thumbup:

[Oberst Zeisig]

The problem that can occur from self taught in game is that you may develop quirks that may only be associated with a certain game mechanic rather than actually applying a more realistic approach to the situation. The later will stand you in good stead across the board not just for that current version etc.

 

I know a lot of people that did this in Flaming Cliffs, then got disgruntled and quit when FC2 came out.

 

Yeah I know this should be especially a problem with all the missile issues in fc3. Mainly I know all the basics but self training formed out some tricks that work in this version. That´s why I don´t fly the russians anymore atm because its just too easy getting kills when You´re defensive enough by accurately using the EOS sensor, which seems from the detection ranges being VERY far from realistic. ITM I practice a standard bvr approach with the F-15C.

[hitman]

Finish this sentence:

 

He who fights and runs away, ________________________

(is a kicking, screaming 12 yr old girl who acts like their big sister just ripped her barbie doll head right off)

[RIPTIDE]

Yeah I know this should be especially a problem with all the missile issues in fc3. Mainly I know all the basics but self training formed out some tricks that work in this version. That´s why I don´t fly the russians anymore atm because its just too easy getting kills when You´re defensive enough by accurately using the EOS sensor, which seems from the detection ranges being VERY far from realistic. ITM I practice a standard bvr approach with the F-15C.

I think in this latest patch EOS detection is conservative, head on, even for a AB contact.

[Oberst Zeisig]

I think in this latest patch EOS detection is conservative, head on, even for a AB contact.

 

 

I havent tested yet but i think when its only half way reduced the russians aren´t so interesting anymore.

[GGTharos]

There we go. If you want a thing vs thing thread, there's a Chit-Chat section. Do it there.

[Svend_Dellepude]

;)