A10s over Kosovo

[ENO]

Even in the book itself the author / pilots speak specifically about how Serb efforts to drag destroyed vehicles away interfered with damage / loss assessments...

 

Just because "they left no gouges" doesn't mean that there wasn't a significant effort to conceal the actual damage being done. There may have even been some significant success in this effort. The more effort spent concealing the wreckage is the less time spent burning down towns and killing innocent people.

 

Look at it another way assuming the "concealed wreckage of damaged / destroyed vehicles" is completely undigestible to you...

 

If few vehicles were destroyed, it was likely because they were not operating with impunity in the region and were instead slaved to scheduled opening and closing of the KEZ. They were hiding, camouflaged at all hours and -if doing anything- were operating at night.

 

They requested the E-8s work at night, but powers that be felt those aircraft were more useful during the day. Again- this was an overall battlefield management failure and can simply not be attributed to any number of different types of aircraft.

 

In addition to the point that Sith already made about the fact that the absence of "centralized control- decentralized execution" the A-10, the FACs and all other aircraft involved in the conflict were unable to achieve maximum success in their missions.

Edited April 15, 2014 by ENO

[Harzach]

It's been a while since I read it, but wasn't weather a frequent issue as well?

[DUSTY]

As Nikola properly noted, by simple mathematics, that makes A-10 effectiveness even worse.

 

Oh look everyone, a totally unqualified statement! :lol:

 

Seems like the 4cent guys are having a direct dig at the A-10. I heard the Hog was pretty terrible in Desert Storm, OIF and OEF too. :smilewink:

[WildBillKelsoe]

A great book. I read it twice and everytime, the accounts make you feel like a camera along with the man in the cockpit. I can practically dream a chapter thanks to DCS :D

 

For those who want extra A-10 reads, check this out

 

http://www.amazon.com/Warthog-Flying-Potomac-Books-Warriors/dp/1574888862/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1397526761&sr=8-1&keywords=a-10++gulf+war

[Toolboy77]

A great book. I read it twice and everytime, the accounts make you feel like a camera along with the man in the cockpit. I can practically dream a chapter thanks to DCS :D

 

For those who want extra A-10 reads, check this out

 

http://www.amazon.com/Warthog-Flying-Potomac-Books-Warriors/dp/1574888862/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1397526761&sr=8-1&keywords=a-10++gulf+war

 

Yep!

I'm reading this on baltic_dragons's recomendation and I'm really enjoying it.

I've already applied some of the procedures & tactics to my time in the sim and its paying off!

Thanks again baltic_dragon!!!

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Seems like the 4cent guys are having a direct dig at the A-10. I heard the Hog was pretty terrible in Desert Storm, OIF and OEF too. :smilewink:

Did you see order of battle in the Gulf War? Not sure about the Desert storm when it comes to the order of battle. Then flat, desert terrain without air defenses is like flying a training mission over your home country.

[NineLine]

It's been a while since I read it, but wasn't weather a frequent issue as well?

 

Yup, its been mentioned a few times and as I said, I am just part way into it.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Seems like the 4cent ....

4C stands for an old Serbian saying that goes "Само Слога Србина Спашава".

[WildBillKelsoe]

another good read but not A-10, about F-16CJ, which I want to acquire so bad if it wasn't for my country restriction, is the Viper Pilot: a memoir of air combat by Dan Hampton

 

http://www.amazon.com/Viper-Pilot-Memoir-Air-Combat/dp/006213034X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1397575595&sr=8-1&keywords=viper+pilot

 

this book I read just the preview first chapter and is the type of real accounts that really mixes up with our hobby and addiction.

 

It's on my purchase list.

[Harzach]

another good read but not A-10, about F-16CJ, which I want to acquire so bad if it wasn't for my country restriction, is the Viper Pilot: a memoir of air combat by Dan Hampton

 

+1. Also:

 

A Nightmare's Prayer: A Marine Harrier Pilot's War in Afghanistan

[AtaliaA1]

+1. Also:

 

A Nightmare's Prayer: A Marine Harrier Pilot's War in Afghanistan

 

 

 

Absolutely Gripping Story. Well written by a guy who is as humble as they come. I get turned off by the arrogant pilots who write their yarns so that they seem larger than life.

[Cali]

Btw, It's great these books are available digitally for free, I would never pay for a book to guy tried to kill me.

 

Who tried to hurt you?

[Harzach]

Who tried to hurt you?

 

The =4c= guys are Serbian.

[GGTharos]

You're out of line. Don't do it again.

 

Because as we all know, the A-10s were sent to go on a Serb genocide. But of course only managed to tip over a single inflatable tank target, because USA stoopid, and Serbia super smart, or whatever. Sigh...

 

You know Nik, there's plenty of Germans who've bought books written by B-17 pilots, and they actually tried to kill them. So how about you drop the "poor me, the big bad Americans attacked us for no reason, but they were so stupid they couldn't even take off" attitude and talk about the book, which is what this thread is about?

[GGTharos]

I think it just really didn't have targets to shoot at. That's what happens when the opponent hides, and I think that worked well.

 

I really have nothing against A-10C nor any other western aircraft for that matter hence I fly A-10C and F-15 actively in DCS. I think aircraft is just a tool. Whatever is the reason, A-10s failed almost completely which is more than obvious when you read the book.

[ENO]

I found I understood the conflict and the political sensitivity a lot more when I watched the documentary "The Death of Yugoslavia." Once I better understood the nature of the conflict on the ground I was better able to understand the dynamic nature of the ROEs.

 

Even though they don't talk too much about the air campaign-having a little more understanding of the bigger picture still added needed insight to the commentary of the pilots who were dealing with this throughout the campaign.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

I think it just really didn't have targets to shoot at. That's what happens when the opponent hides, and I think that worked well.

That is exactly right, A-10's could not find the targets. But that for sure did not mean that Yugoslavian military units were unable to move. Yugoslavian military defeated KLA in the first few days of the war. During that time even our attack airplanes flew missions over Kosovo and Metohija. With KLA defeated, there was no ground forces to fight. Therefore, military units simply camouflaged itself and were waiting for NATO ground troops.

 

Thus, A-10's were really useless, they could not go low, because of the IC SAM's, including a home made R-73's converted to SAM version.

 

That's the whole point of the book and of my and Nikola's argument. The book is perfectly clear in stating the same thing.

 

And the Newsweek magazine article from May 2000 is right on the money with the analysis of the conflict, also stating the same thing.

 

 

Reminder: SAM = Stealth STOP! (see GG's signature)

Edited April 16, 2014 by =4c= Hajduk Veljko

[Scrim]

I found I understood the conflict and the political sensitivity a lot more when I watched the documentary "The Death of Yugoslavia." Once I better understood the nature of the conflict on the ground I was better able to understand the dynamic nature of the ROEs.

 

Even though they don't talk too much about the air campaign-having a little more understanding of the bigger picture still added needed insight to the commentary of the pilots who were dealing with this throughout the campaign.

 

Agreed, great documentary. Extensive, very educational, completely unbiased, figures from all sides interviewed, relatively unknown events put into context in the greater picture, etc.

 

First episode, the rest are easy to find from the same YT account:

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

completely unbiased ....

BBC, British Broadcasting Company, is a British Government owned broadcasting company and it reflects British Government views. I can give you a list of more then obvious bias that BBC has against many issues, specially when it comes to Yugoslavian civil war tragedy and NATO military use over Kosovo and Metohija.

 

I can not provide the examples of BBC bias here, because, every time I've done it, my posts were declared political, and the threads and posts were either deleted, closed or I got warnings.

 

Nevertheless, this documentary is OK, but far from being completely unbiased.

[NineLine]

Ok guys, back on track discussing the book please.

[Nefron]

 

Thus, A-10's were really useless, they could not go low, because of the IC SAM's, including a home made R-73's converted to SAM version.

 

Really? I know there were a lot of Frankensteinian abominations during the YU wars, Košava being my favorite, but this is news to me. Any pictures?

[WildBillKelsoe]

the best part of the book that I liked was when they were looking for a tanker and as they got connected, they were checking they got the right callsign giving them fuel :D

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Really? I know there were a lot of Frankensteinian abominations during the YU wars, Košava being my favorite, but this is news to me. Any pictures?

Here's one. I don't think this is R-73, however.

 

[159th_Viper]

Here:

 

 

With R-73 designation RL-4M

 

 

With R-60 designation RL-2M

[Nefron]

Beautiful, thanks.