F-4 Phantom Who Wants it Poll

[WinterH]

Yes I recall something to that effect was being said for F-4, and yet, about the exact same was said about F-14, around the same time.

 

I see we are still getting the F-14, so F-4 may still be a possibility in future.

 

There may potentially be a licencing issue though, since A-4, another Mc Donnell Douglas aircraft which also left frontline service before Boeing acquiring it, was abandoned due not being able to reach a favorable licencing agreement with them.

 

Anyway, whole thread is hypotethical of course, just a wishlist of sorts, just one that is concentrated on a single aircraft :). I would very much love a mid to late 70s F-4E if it eventually come. Also the wild weasel F-4G could be highly interesting. A carrier F-4? Well honestly I wouldn't be as interested, I'd still get it down the line but for most people worldwide, F-4E is the definitive Phantom. A bundle of both an airforce and naval version would probably be the best of both worlds of course.

[MBot]

The F-4 is one of those all time classics that will probably sell like hot cake (just like the F-14). Since LNS will presumably be the first developer to attain a true player-AI multicrew capability, they will be in an excellent and unique position to serve that segment. I think it would be wise for LNS to grab the Phantom and secure it for their stable before another developer catches up.

 

I agree that the F-4E would be the best variant to model. Versatile and widely used across the world, it is simply the most sigificant Phantom.

 

The F-4D gets extra points for good looks and probably being the best fighter bomber of the legacy Phantoms. Also had a very long and distingtive career with the USAF, IIRAF/IRIAF and ROKAF but nowhere near as widespread as the F-4E.

 

The F-4B/J/N/S have the carrier operations in their favour, but I think in this case I would miss out the operational versitality of the F-4D/E.

 

The F-4G is a very interesting aircraft and would justify a module in its own right. But I think having it with it's specialised role ahead of a more classic Phantom would be a mistake.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

The Echo makes the most sense based on its operational capabilities and the sheer amount of users.

 

USAF, Egypt, Germany, South Korea, Iran, Australia, Israel, Greece, and Turkey would all be represented.

[Cool Breeze]

I would hope that the carrier ability would showcased. Maybe have multiple models designed as they are making with the Tomcat. The Echo and Juliet modules would be my personal preference. Though the Juliet is my preferred Phantom.

[Hummingbird]

F-4E all day!

 

[Hummingbird]

An aggressive Phantom demo for you guys to enjoy:

 

[Hummingbird]

Some interesting information on the advantages of the slatted F-4E over the earlier models:

 

"In the low-speed regime during a dogfight, the F-4 was prone to what was called adverse yaw- normally when the pilot wanted to turn one direction, he only had to move the stick in that direction. At low speeds and high angles of attack that were commonplace in a dogfight, however, if a pilot pushed the stick to the left, the downward-deflected aileron on the right wing would produce more drag than lift, causing the Phantom to yaw back to the right even though the pilot wanted to turn left. As the yaw increases, the effective sweep on the left wing decreases and it starts to produce more left and the F-4 snaps to the right and then into a spin. All this happened nearly instantly and pilots had to compensate for the adverse yaw when rolling left or right by using the rudder aggressively during close air combat- instead of moving the stick into the direction of the turn, the rudder was deflected. So a left turn meant keeping the stick centered and pushing the left rudder pedal down. This causes the Phantom to yaw to the left and this decreases the effective sweep on the right wing- it therefore creates more lift and the plane now snap rolls into the direction of the turn. This took a lot of practice and it was suspected that a significant number of Phantom combat losses were due to adverse yaw conditions."

 

"But the F-4Es had another advantage and that was what was called a "soft wing"- the wing now had leading edge slats that were controlled automatically by the flight control system whenever the angle of attack would reach a certain level. When the AoA hit this preset level, the slats would automatically pop out and it increased the lift across the wing- this had a dual effect on the Phantom- it eliminated the adverse yaw condition, even at high angles of attack. And secondly, the Phantom became practically spin proof as adverse yaw got eliminated- accidents from spins dropped dramatically and pilots could now haul around the beast in the sky without worrying about loss of control. In fact, some pilots felt that the soft wing F-4E flew just like the Northrop T-38 Talons used in advanced flight training."

[Kev2go]

yea if we get the F4 phantom

 

the F4-E phantom, the definitive variant with its later wing slat modification is the one i would want to play in DCS.

[Hummingbird]

Other than the F-14 Tomcat I can't think of a module I'd want more than the F-4E Phantom right now.

 

I am desperately longing to have a true adversary for the MiG-21Bis, and nothing fits that bill better than the F-4E. Just the thought of chasing down Fishbeds in a LNS Phantom sends chills down my spine and makes my mouth water!

[Dudikoff]

yea if we get the F4 phantom

 

the F4-E phantom, the definitive variant with its later wing slat modification is the one i would want to play in DCS.

 

I'm not an expert on Phantoms (or anything else for that matter), but I got the impression that the USAF F-4E had never gotten a pulse-doppler radar (they had the AN/APQ-120 set, but it's hard to find a detailed reference on that whole radar family and detailed differences between the many variants)?

 

IF that's really true and depending on your definition of "definitive", the F-4J (no slats as it was the primary fleet interceptor) or S (improved J with added slats) might be considered the more definitive US variants ;)

Edited February 23, 2016 by Dudikoff

[MBot]

IF that's really true and depending on your definition of "definitive", the F-4J (no slats as it was the primary fleet interceptor) or S (improved J with added slats) might be considered the more definitive US variants ;)

 

Only if you are into air-air :)

 

 

Pave Spike TV pod and LGB.

 

 

 

Maverick.

 

 

 

Shrike.

 

 

I love Phantoms in these late 70s/80s green Euro camos.

[RoflSeal]

I'm not an expert on Phantoms (or anything else for that matter), but I got the impression that the USAF F-4E had never gotten a pulse-doppler radar (they had the AN/APQ-120 set, but it's hard to find a detailed reference on that whole radar family and detailed differences between the many variants)?

 

IF that's really true and depending on your definition of "definitive", the F-4J (no slats as it was the primary fleet interceptor) or S (improved J with added slats) might be considered the more definitive US variants ;)

 

F-4E is the definitive variant because it was used by so many countries.

[WinterH]

Multirole, gun equipped, most numerous production, served in most wars, equipped with slats, served / serves in most services, E really has to be the definitive one :).

[Kev2go]

I'm not an expert on Phantoms (or anything else for that matter), but I got the impression that the USAF F-4E had never gotten a pulse-doppler radar (they had the AN/APQ-120 set, but it's hard to find a detailed reference on that whole radar family and detailed differences between the many variants)?

 

IF that's really true and depending on your definition of "definitive", the F-4J (no slats as it was the primary fleet interceptor) or S (improved J with added slats) might be considered the more definitive US variants ;)

 

but none of the naval F4's never had internal guns, which is why would still very much rather fly the USAF F4E over the F4J

 

 

sure external gunpods mounts were available in the underbelly is better than none, but those weren't as accurate and had a tendency to jam in high g manuvers.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Kev2go

[nogano00]

F-4 is truly a great aircraft, but F-14 is a greater one, not to offend anyone. So, I think we should wait for Leatherneck to release the F-14 and then start making future plans. it's like showing your dog a treat but giving it to him the next day. What I mean is we are rushing.

[CAT_101st]

F-4 is truly a great aircraft, but F-14 is a greater one, not to offend anyone. So, I think we should wait for Leatherneck to release the F-14 and then start making future plans. it's like showing your dog a treat but giving it to him the next day. What I mean is we are rushing.

 

I can't agree more. Everyone gets a taste of one thing and get tired of waiting and then find something else to push on the developer's.

[Hummingbird]

:thumbup::thumbup:

 

[Dudikoff]

Shrike.

 

Couldn't Shrike be theoretically carried by the Navy Phantoms as well?

[MBot]

Couldn't Shrike be theoretically carried by the Navy Phantoms as well?

 

Possibly, but I haven't yet seen a picture of it.

[Dudikoff]

Possibly, but I haven't yet seen a picture of it.

 

Not surprising since they used the A-6's and A-7's for that, but technically, the missile was available on early Phantoms so it would make sense that it could be carried by those later ones. I guess maybe Bullpups as well, though it's hard to find the tactical manuals for the Navy Phantoms or detailed references. But, they're still technically multi-role, even if that was not their primary mission.

 

I'd agree that the later (Maverick compatible) USAF F-4E would be a more flexible choice for DCSW with some guided munition options and a gun (plus the lack of look-down capabilities would make it much easier for the BVR-less MiG-21's to get close), but I thought the topic was in more general terms.

 

Interestingly enough, it seems the AN/APQ-120 on the F-4E was supposed to have some doppler system included, but it didn't work out:

 

"The AN/APQ-120 was to have been provided with a Hughes-developed coherent on-receive Doppler system (CORDS), which it was hoped would make it easier to detect low-flying aircraft up against ground clutter. However, this system proved to be so erratic that the initial deployment was slipped from the 35th F-4E to the 120th. Continued problems caused CORDS to be be cancelled on January 2, 1968."

 

I also read somewhere that the Navy had considered its own variant of the gun armed Phantom, but supposedly the longer nose and the gun might not clear the deck during worst case landing situations?

Edited February 25, 2016 by Dudikoff

[MBot]

Some more interesting shots.

 

 

Better view of Pave Spike and some GBU-12.

 

 

 

The clumsy Pave Track FLIR installation and a training GBU-10.

 

 

 

 

GBU-15.

 

 

 

Another nice Shrike bird from the 52nd TFW in Germany. The 52nd TFW was the only SEAD wing in Europe with mixed F-4G/F-4E (later F-4G/F-16C) hunter-killer teams.

 

 

 

We already had this picture previously in the thread, but I think it is a remarkable shot. F-4G in the lead with one Standard ARM and Shrike each, followed by an F-4E with 2 Shirke on the right and a F-4E with Mk-82 bombs on the left.

[MBot]

I'd agree that the later (Maverick compatible) USAF F-4E would be a more flexible choice for DCSW with some guided munition options and a gun (plus the lack of look-down capabilities would make it much easier for the BVR-less MiG-21's to get close), but I thought the topic was in more general terms.

 

The funny thing is, I am usually not a huge fan of targeting pods and guded A-G munitions. I think with the A-10C for example they took away a lot of the fun. I will probably fly the F/A-18C Desert Storm style: No FLIR, no LGBs, no GPS weapons.

 

But for the Phantom on the other hand, I would really like to play with those systems. I think the early days of guided A-G munitions still required some work and skill. As far as I understand, the Pave Spike TV pod has no autotrack feature (just stabilization), so the WSO has to work to designate the target. And the the pilot still has to drop the LGB on the right space manually using just a depressible pipper and a dive bomb delivery. Sounds fun.

[Dudikoff]

The funny thing is, I am usually not a huge fan of targeting pods and guded A-G munitions. I think with the A-10C for example they took away a lot of the fun. I will probably fly the F/A-18C Desert Storm style: No FLIR, no LGBs, no GPS weapons.

 

I'd definitely agree here. It's somewhat tiresome to fly the A-10C with all these digital systems added, but I guess they had to make it more useful (e.g. medium level LGB/JDAM drops above AAA/MANPADS range) so it doesn't get axed. It's like it's not the A-10 anymore, but just another MFD shuffling smart bomb delivery vehicle (albeit much slower). I'm all for those 70's/80's chaotic low level target approach and deliveries, dodging AAA and short range SAMs and running into unexpected enemy planes.

 

The early A-10's were rather hardcore though with its primitive navigation systems and no computer calculated dumb bomb delivery modes (IIRC?), so perhaps a DCS upgrade of the A-10A from FC3 would be the optimal DCSW variant with its LASTE improvements.

 

But for the Phantom on the other hand, I would really like to play with those systems. I think the early days of guided A-G munitions still required some work and skill. As far as I understand, the Pave Spike TV pod has no autotrack feature (just stabilization), so the WSO has to work to designate the target. And the the pilot still has to drop the LGB on the right space manually using just a depressible pipper and a dive bomb delivery. Sounds fun.

 

Definitely requires developing some skills (though not as much as unguided weapons delivery on those), but it could also get complicated to do that alone in SP missions. Speaking of unguided bomb delivery, I've read that the F-4D and E were equipped with AN/ASQ-91 weapon release computers which were later (along with some analogue navigation system) replaced on 180 E's with AN/ARN-101(V) digital navigational/attack system. Can anybody with some tactical Phantom manuals share some info on capabilities of these systems?

 

Since you mentioned WSO, I wonder when the USAF started using that term anyway? IIRC (as I just reread some Vietnam era book), in the Vietnam the USAF used to use pilots in the back and some time later switched to specialized navigators.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Dudikoff

[Dudikoff]

Some more interesting shots. GBU-15.

 

Interesting. That's one more point for the F-4E, I guess. Those came later in the 80's so I thought they were mainly used by the F-15E's (I blame the F-15 Strike Eagle III days :) ).

 

We already had this picture previously in the thread, but I think it is a remarkable shot. F-4G in the lead with one Standard ARM and Shrike each, followed by an F-4E with 2 Shirke on the right and a F-4E with Mk-82 bombs on the left.

 

Those AN/ALQ-131's look rather cumbersome on the Phantoms being carried on the left front Sparrow position compared to e.g. the older AN/ALQ-119's.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Dudikoff

[Farlander]

Personally i'll take a carrier hook over a gun. In my opinion with the upcoming carriers it will make for alot of interesting missions compared to what we have now..

 

Gun is nice, but we need more naval aircraft :)