Help a new pilot temper expectations...

[Buckeye]

First off, I really hope I am posting this in the right forum. I looked all around and this seemed to be the most generalized area.

 

In my teens I had dreams of becoming a fighter pilot until I realized that I was red/green color blind and this disqualified me. I still to this day wish I wasn't stuck being a Financial/Strategy Analyst and could be a pilot instead, but hey, sh!t happens. I've never lost my love for fighter jets or desire to pilot. I recently built a powerful gaming rig (to play Battlefield 4, where I am currently a top Scout heli pilot) and now I want to leverage this to get into the Flight Sim world. After many hours of research, DCS is my choice of which sim I want to dedicate myself to and become a pilot on.

 

Here are my current plans:

 

- Buy a TrackIR5 and continue to research which joystick I want (have to keep it within a certain budget, especially as a newbie I don't want to go too over the top). Currently I have been looking at used MSFF2's after reading a lot of positive feedback on them. The X52's bugs concern me, Warthog is out of budget, etc. I am open to any suggestions here. I have been looking at the X55 but it doesn't release until the end of the month...hmm.

- Save for a set of rudder pedals. These won't come until later, I will have to bind keys or flightstick buttons to suffice until I can get the Saitek Combat Pedals. Maybe I will gift these to myself once I become a respectable pilot?

- Depending on what I go with for the flightstick choice, I may or may not have a proper Throttle right off the bat. If I don't, this will be an additional purchase down the road as well.

 

That covers my current "plan"...but my main question is this:

 

How long should I anticipate it taking me to learn to fly well enough for me to get on a server and dogfight? I have an in depth understanding of the theory and principles of dogfighting, I am more concerned with learning the feel and controls of piloting aircraft. Before I embark on this journey, I want to make sure I have my head in the right place and I am going into it with realistic expectations.

 

Thanks for reading, and thanks in advance for any responses. I look forward to getting to know you all in the future.

[BigfootMSR]

That really depends on what module and aircraft you are wanting to learn on. FC3 has the most aircrafts available and they are easier to fly without full system modeling, clickable cockpits ect, vs the study level sims such as the A-10C and Ka-50. A-10C and Ka-50, Mi-8 and UH-1, p-51 are study level sims in which they have a fully clickable cokpit and full systems modeling.

[kk0425]

I'd say a 2-6 months before you start getting the feel for it depending on how much you play. I don't really get to play as much as I would like so I'm pretty terrible online.

[hypersonik]

FC3: 1 day to pew pew boom. Seriously, its just watching some youtube. Yu wont be no top gun though :P ( F15,SU27,SU33)

 

A-10C: 1 week for weapons system give or take.. up to 6 months .. he he I learned start up last.

 

 

 

IMO: don't get a chopper if yu don't have pedals. It isn't right. been there done that.

mi-8 and huey are "simple" yet hard to fly properly (PEDALS PEDALS).

 

K-50: same as A-10C.

 

I recommend yu get FC3, the F15 PFM is epic and instant joy, go from there.

 

There's also the free TF-51. :D

Edited April 30, 2014 by hypersonik

[LegoHeli]

I agree with what has been stated above and I will give you this advice since you explicitly name dogfighting as your main objective:

 

Have a more arcadey sim for dogfighting purposes as well. Personally I like a bit of War Thunder on simulation level for dogfighting, it's entertaining but more easily approached than DCS.

 

I don't mean that you shouldn't fly DCS, not at all, but if dogfighting is your current desire, I would definitely try something else as well.

[159th_Viper]

Get a HOTAS system right off the bat and get the best one you can afford. You're just prolonging the inevitable and increasing your learning curve by a good margin if you don't.

[Maximus_Lazarus]

Get a HOTAS system right off the bat and get the best one you can afford. You're just prolonging the inevitable and increasing your learning curve by a good margin if you don't.

 

yeah man, i've been flying without track-ir and with keyboard for quite a while on and off, but it just doesn't feel right.

 

So besides the obvious PRACTICAL reasons why you need a stick and track-ir , the immersion factor is even a bigger bonus you get with the stick and track ir.

 

Having that said though, i personally do not think you need a terribly expensive stick. Altough you'll need at least an X-52 . (cheapest one)

[TAW_Blaze]

How long should I anticipate it taking me to learn to fly well enough for me to get on a server and dogfight? I have an in depth understanding of the theory and principles of dogfighting, I am more concerned with learning the feel and controls of piloting aircraft. Before I embark on this journey, I want to make sure I have my head in the right place and I am going into it with realistic expectations.

I take it this is literally your first stick. Based on my personal experience I'd say it definitely takes 2 months if not more to be comfortable flying the plane even with heavy hours put into it.

 

Having theoretical knowledge about BFM is great but what it'll come down to is practice, practice and practice. I used to think I had knowledege about BFM before I came into DCS, well, I didn't.

 

My advice is that as soon as you're more or less comfortable flying the plane and controlling it's systems regarding weapons and everything else, jump in multiplayer. You'll get shot down a lot, but that's just how you learn. Getting into a dogfight in a jet is difficult most of the time since people just tend to do everything to keep you away from them. When you finally find yourself in one, it might quickly end for you if you're not on the top of things, and more often than not there will be someone disturbing your 1v1 box match.

 

As for how long will it take to become competent, good, or whatever you want to name it - years. Up to a mediocre point where you have a bit of knowledge and understand 'some' stuff, it's somewhat easy to progress especially if you have someone to help you, but eventually you run into a brick wall that most of us can only get through with extensive training with someone that knows how it's done and also knows how to teach it.

 

They say you only get to be good at the stuff you /DO/. How much you need to spend per week is down to a lot of things, the type of person you are, how your mind works when it comes to learning. Also the quality of time spent is very important. But then again you want to have fun aswell, try to balance that out to your liking. As a rule of thumb I'd say if you spend 10 or more hours a week flying you have a real good chance of learning a lot and fast.

Edited April 30, 2014 by <Blaze>

[Bushmanni]

How long should I anticipate it taking me to learn to fly well enough for me to get on a server and dogfight? I have an in depth understanding of the theory and principles of dogfighting, I am more concerned with learning the feel and controls of piloting aircraft. Before I embark on this journey, I want to make sure I have my head in the right place and I am going into it with realistic expectations.

 

I don't know if you know what you are saying but assuming your knowledge is gained from videos (not so in depth) or books (better) you are going to have a nasty surprise. In my opinion you can't have in depth understanding of the theory and principles of dogfighting unless you have at least average skills to execute those theories and principles in practice.

 

First of all dogfighting is completely different mental exercise from anything else that normal person won't know what's really important and what's not unless having experienced it (dogfighting in Battlefield or ARMA doesn't count). The other thing is that dogfighting is a dynamic process that can't be predicted analytically. While it's governed by science as in what can be done it's up to the opposition to choose what he will do within the boundaries set by rules of nature. Unless you have experienced the process you can't understand it. Don't expect too much from yourself at the beginning and ask questions from more experienced players.

 

I don't know how long it takes until you can't learn anything new about dogfighting, it probably never happens. It takes few years to learn just the basics when doing it professionally so you shouldn't expect more of yourself. Most other players on the servers have years of head start on you and the best have been playing since the first somewhat realistic sims came out so you can imagine how it is for newbies.

 

You don't have a chance in multiplayer before you can face off and kill multiple AIs without breaking a sweat. You are still probably just a target after this but you have enough skill that when you get the opportunity to kill someone you might actually be able to do it. If you can manage to find someone to practice with it will help immensely with basic 1vs1 skills as you can get back to the fight right away after getting shot down and not waste time flying around looking for a fight. Tactical judgement is crucial skill on public servers but that you can learn only through the hard way by playing on them.

[159th_Falcon]

 

How long should I anticipate it taking me to learn to fly well enough for me to get on a server and dogfight?

 

Couple hours, or better said. As long as you need to set up the most basic controls and figure out how to fire the gun.

 

Flying ain't that hard, pulling a trigger aint any harder.

 

Some have said you need to get experience first, well flying online is the best way to gain that experience.

 

Also, don't be shy on joining Team Speak servers, you will usually find people willing to help you along.

(providing your asking specific question, not something like "how do i shoot planes")

 

As for how long it will take for you to become a proficient and effective fighter pilot.

 

No one knows really, time will tell.

[GGTharos]

Can you dogfight and AI and win? In less than two minutes from the merge? Less than one minute from the merge (textbook!)? You're ready then, though this is a broad generalization. Most people take their time dogfighting an AI, though the AI is a pretty easy mark usually if you know what you're doing. If you're fighting it for 8-10 minutes before you kill it, then you're probably on the same level at about 80% of the online fighter pilots.

 

First thing you will find out: Your in depth understanding of the theory and principles of dogfight mean nothing. It's great that you know/understand, but can you apply it, can you do the post-fight analysis and do the analysis on the fly while fighting?

 

More importantly ... can you fly your plane while doing all this? :D

 

Meeting another person in a fight is much different than fighting an AI. People will do things that surprise you. Some will be easy to fight, they don't know how - some will make you want to scream 'hax', but really, they're just pushing you around into doing whatever they want you to do, which is fly out in front of their pipper.

 

Those are your realistic expectations. You may be better/worse than the average, but that is the average.

 

How long should I anticipate it taking me to learn to fly well enough for me to get on a server and dogfight? I have an in depth understanding of the theory and principles of dogfighting, I am more concerned with learning the feel and controls of piloting aircraft. Before I embark on this journey, I want to make sure I have my head in the right place and I am going into it with realistic expectations.

[Buckeye]

Thank you all for the speedy and detailed responses, I am blown away at all of them. This really seems like a great community, I love that everyone is so willing to help out a noob. There is a lot to respond to, rather than make a book of quotes and responses I will try to summarize everything.

 

In terms of my claimed knowledge, it is not substantial. I am just versed in the theory of dogfighting and various tactics a pilot can employ. As many of you said, knowing something and being able to use that knowledge in a pressure situation are two very different things. That is the challenge I am most looking forward to. I fully anticipate being owned early on, but I also fully anticipate finding that same pilot later down the road and showing him who the boss is. While dogfighting is not an analytical exercise, I do believe I can use my analytical background (natural tendency to analyze) to analyze the fight -- what did I do right? what did I do wrong? why did the other pilot make that move? how could i have better set a trap for him? Ultimately, any good pilot knows you are looking to set a trap for your opponent while equally knowing that any good pilot you are facing is trying to set you into a trap at the same time. I can read every book there is, until I experience it can learn from said experience (and my mistakes), I will struggle. I need to learn to recognize traps, know why the other pilot is doing what he is doing, and how I can react to that. Practice makes perfect. Since December, I have logged 600+ hours on BF4, so, I will have some time to dedicate to learning this craft...but now that it is summer, not quite as much as I had during the awful winter.

 

Today I picked up a CH Flightstick for the interim. I also placed an order for the X55 HOTAS (expected to ship to me May 30th, as everyone probably knows they are currently out of stock). Before the X55 arrives, I will get a TrackIR5 set up too. Rudder pedals will have to come later. I plan to cut my teeth on on the Frogfoot with the CH stick for the next month or so, learning general controls and getting a feel for things. During this time I will probably just fly against the AI. I won't get on multiplayer until I have the TrackIR set up. My plan is to purchase the FC3 (for the F15), and then the F18 Hornet module once it is released -- my hope is that it is a full AFM with clickable dash. By the time it drops, I should be up to speed and ready for that level of challenge and detail.

 

I plan to continue reading up and posting here, watching YouTube videos/tutorials, and I am sure I will be around with plenty of questions.

[winz]

@Ace of Hart

Also install TacView, it is a must have tool for analyzing your fights.

http://lomac.strasoftware.com/tacview-en.php

[GGTharos]

In terms of my claimed knowledge, it is not substantial. I am just versed in the theory of dogfighting and various tactics a pilot can employ. As many of you said, knowing something and being able to use that knowledge in a pressure situation are two very different things.

 

It isn't just about pressure. The books, videos, web pages - they don't tell you everything. In fact, some of the most important and basic aspects of how you do BFM are missing from those, as are the basic training tools that are used to teach real pilots BFM (here's a hint: Formation isn't taught just to make things look pretty).

 

While dogfighting is not an analytical exercise,

 

Yes it is. It is nothing but an analytical exercise.

 

I can read every book there is, until I experience it can learn from said experience (and my mistakes), I will struggle.

 

Yep, par for the course.

 

During this time I will probably just fly against the AI. I won't get on multiplayer until I have the TrackIR set up.

 

You don't need TIR for MP. Yes, there are disadvantages - you need to use a switch to pan your virtual head around, so it makes it harder to keep a look-out for SAMs or fighters, but you can be quite functional without it, especially in the ground-attack role. That said, don't get stuck in the HuD ... if you can look around, do it.

[Buckeye]

Since you're going to cut your teeth on the Frogfoot, I'll recommend this guide! http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=167721450

 

Also you'll find that most of the controls and keyboard buttons have the same functions between the Frogfoot and the Eagle (and most FC3 planes) so you'll feel right at home once you feel comfortable in the Frogfoot

 

Beautiful, thank you! My stick will arrive tomorrow, so tomorrow when I get home from the office will mark my first flight. I've watched 5 or so hours of a tutorial on YouTube on the Frogfoot, and what you linked will help to serve as a great reference. Glad to hear the controls are comparable, too.

 

@Ace of Hart

Also install TacView, it is a must have tool for analyzing your fights.

http://lomac.strasoftware.com/tacview-en.php

 

Will do, thank you!

 

It isn't just about pressure. The books, videos, web pages - they don't tell you everything. In fact, some of the most important and basic aspects of how you do BFM are missing from those, as are the basic training tools that are used to teach real pilots BFM (here's a hint: Formation isn't taught just to make things look pretty).

 

Yes it is. It is nothing but an analytical exercise.

 

Yep, par for the course.

 

You don't need TIR for MP. Yes, there are disadvantages - you need to use a switch to pan your virtual head around, so it makes it harder to keep a look-out for SAMs or fighters, but you can be quite functional without it, especially in the ground-attack role. That said, don't get stuck in the HuD ... if you can look around, do it.

 

For the things that are not taught commonly, how do I learn them? Just through experience?

 

Poor choice of words by me on the analytical part, I was thinking of it being more of a reactionary exercise; but the stem of those reactions are analytics. Point taken.

 

I ordered the TIR5 earlier today, seems pretty cool and seems like it will help make my situational awareness better and easier (and the experience more immersive as well). I have read numerous places that a common poor habit is to focus too much on the HUD, and that it is a tough one to break, so I fully intend to avoid that. Thanks, man!

[GGTharos]

For the things that are not taught commonly, how do I learn them? Just through experience?

 

That and luck, because experience won't teach you everything either - let's just say that the act of flying an aircraft, flying aerobatics, and flying in combat are all things that have been studied for a very long time.

If you are very, very lucky you will find someone who is an instructor in real life to teach you.

All that aide, as long as you apply yourself you will certainly get better. :)

 

Poor choice of words by me on the analytical part, I was thinking of it being more of a reactionary exercise; but the stem of those reactions are analytics. Point taken.

 

Yes and no. It's predictive, if you're just reacting then the other guy will dictate the fight. I wouldn't say your choice of words is poor, it's coloured by what you know.

 

I ordered the TIR5 earlier today, seems pretty cool and seems like it will help make my situational awareness better and easier (and the experience more immersive as well). I have read numerous places that a common poor habit is to focus too much on the HUD, and that it is a tough one to break, so I fully intend to avoid that. Thanks, man!

 

Excellent, I hope you'll enjoy this hobby :)

[hypersonik]

How come your goin to practice with the Su-25T and not the free TF-51D which has a PFM, and seems to bethe better choice for learning to dogfight. The Su-25T is more of a Mud mover :P

[Buckeye]

How come your goin to practice with the Su-25T and not the free TF-51D which has a PFM, and seems to bethe better choice for learning to dogfight. The Su-25T is more of a Mud mover :P

 

I will probably toy with both and buy FC3 this weekend (to fly the F15C). Joystick just arrived today and I just got home from the office, so it's go time.

[kk0425]

How come your goin to practice with the Su-25T and not the free TF-51D which has a PFM, and seems to bethe better choice for learning to dogfight. The Su-25T is more of a Mud mover :P

 

The TF-51D has no guns. And it flies very different from all the other aircraft available to us.

[hypersonik]

I will probably toy with both and buy FC3 this weekend (to fly the F15C). Joystick just arrived today and I just got home from the office, so it's go time.

 

Enjoy. When feeling cocky attempt aerial refueling. Very humbling exp (learning to ). :P

[Sceptre]

My advice to you: join a group or play with friends when learning the Fighters of Flaming Cliffs, as they can tell you strategies and help you get better at BVR combat. For the A-10C you should play all the training missions and then set up practice missions in the editor until you can use all the weapons effectively. Most multiplayer servers just have "do whatever you like" missions so you can just take off, bomb some targets and RTB. The same goes with the Ka-50. You can go much more in-depth such as buddy lase, JTACs and air refuelling but it isn't necessary to enjoy the game.

I would recommend getting whichever aircraft interests you the most because you are guaranteed to get good at it if you love flying it. But as hypersonik said before, don't get a chopper unless you have pedals!

[Buckeye]

Thanks again for all the advise. I picked up FC3 last night, I am now flying the F15C. Problem is, I can't find in depth training videos to teach me about the radar, weapons, etc., like I had found for the Su25T. For that, I had found a 6 hour training video. Anyone know of any good resources or interactive training mods (do those even exist)? I've searched Google and YouTube, but I just keep finding videos for how to take off or videos with no voice over explaining what controls are hitting to accomplish tasks...at this point, I can only get my cannons loaded and I have no idea how to use my radar (although I did figure out how to turn it on, haha).

 

I'm really happy I ordered the TIR5 already because when I run the Quick Action mission with the F15, I can't stand trying to use the mouse for freelook while still trying to keep my aircraft on it's intended course. I don't think "learning to fly the aircraft" will be much of a challenge, I think it will be learning my instruments and all of the keyboard controls that will be most difficult for me.

 

Anything you fellas could recommend to speed up my learning curve would be much approved.

[Bushmanni]

Manual explains pretty well the basics, you can/should start with that.

[howie87]

Yeah, read every page of the manual. Also, if you want to get good at dogfighting - install this:

 

http://lomac.strasoftware.com/tacview-en.php