Need Help with glide slope and final / landing

[woodsglen]

I am very new to DCS world. I have 3 monitors and set them up with the options menu. basically 5760x1080 over 3 monitors an a panorama view. I only fly the p51 so far because I enjoy "flying".. ( or used to until now! )...

 

I have a decent panoramic view with this set up. ( BTW I', using the HOTAS Warthog with my trims setup on my stick). - and I have rudders too)

 

I made a 4 inch extension to the stick ( which is center mounted in front of the seat) so that helped with what I thought were touchy and overly responsive control surfaces on the model. All of those details aside, here is my problem... ( and the extension helped )

 

 

First - ( but not foremost) - It seems that when I'm landing.. just at final there is a visual lack of references ( where is the ground exactly )

 

In a perfect world, if my rate of decent and approach speed and visual reference of the runway was (all) correct in the windshield and were all spot on, then I should be able to just fly the thing till it touches down and then let it settle on the tail wheel.

 

But no... The aircraft is all over the place, mostly i think because i can't grasp the concept of these two "levers" throttle and prop! It would seem that one of these controls would supply the "traction" to keep the airplane at a desired or constant rate of speed and be able to get the airplane out of trouble with some sense of control - and finesse - not lurching the thing skyward like a harrier.

 

When I'm in the pattern I'm constantly chasing the needle with the plane in terms of altitude (which then relates to airspeed) and trying to get and keep it trimmed out. - then then it always seems to want to come in way too hot or too long, - or too short. or for some reason i never get a glide path established in my windshield and maintain a proper rate of decent. ( due to the needle chasing )

 

This boils down to one thing... lack of proper control of the power - so I'm obviously not getting it.

 

A serious problem is understanding the throttle and prop control.

 

I'm not ( or haven't by trial and error) really figured out how to apply just enough throttle to maintain proper airspeed and altitude. ( and who is who for that matter that I should be constantly correcting )

 

The Guided Tour is just enough to get you killed.

if you don't have a clear understanding of what is really controlling the actual airspeed ( which one of those controls do I need to be tweaking on my final until it touches down? )

 

I really do know how to fly. I can side slip a Cessna on a steep short approach and touch down on the lines - this is no Cessna! ( of course, a Cessna only has one throttle ).

 

I have rarely made a survivable landing due probably to the lack of ground reference and my inability to really control airspeed and glide slope - I'm just chasing the needle up and down.

 

 

Has anyone else encountered this scenario - or better yet - does someone really have stick time in a P51 that could share some insight on my problem? BTW I have not updated to 1.2.8 and from the looks of things I think I'll stick with 1.2.7 for a little while.

 

I'll be honest, I could do touch and go's in the P51 (on DSC world ) and get a lot of enjoyment out of it and be a very happy camper. ( until that wears off :)

 

Right now I'm doing nothing but walking away from it very frustrated and I refuse to go to some "easy game or instant flight mode" That's not why I wanted DCS world and the P51.

 

 

Many Thanks

WoodsGLen

[159th_Viper]

Could you post a short track for us to have a look at - aids greatly in troubleshooting.

 

Edit: Just saw you running 1.2.7. Herewith cockpit view of landing I recorded a good while ago: Should give you an idea of what's going on in the cockpit for a 3-pointer.

 

t9yTD5wJy2g

Edited May 3, 2014 by 159th_Viper

[159th_Viper]

Further to the above vid, set your Propeller Control Lever to 2600RPM and leave it there for the descent, controlling your airspeed upon descent with the Throttle Control Handle. Once you're crossed the numbers, bring her to a stall, using the Rear Warning Radar Horn as a reference - when the underside is just about level with the horizon is where the ground usually is.

[lesnyborsuk]

Hi,

 

But no... The aircraft is all over the place, mostly i think because i can't grasp the concept of these two "levers" throttle and prop!

 

A serious problem is understanding the throttle and prop control.

 

During your traffic pattern you need to constantly manage throttle only. Up to downwind leg you leave your prop to constant RPM for cruise flight. Then, after you put your gear down and full flaps, put prop to max RPM (so in case of go-around you would have enough power) and adjust only throttle -> with landing config ~30MP should be enough to keep proper speed.

 

In my opinion it is very hard in this sim to keep constant altitude with P51 because of its massive power. I suppose that in real world it would be a little easier because you would feel some "feedback" on controls.

 

Hope that helps!

[HotTom]

^What he said!

 

It takes lots and lots of landings until it becomes intuitive. How many do you have in your logbook?

[Der_Fred]

Ah.. Mr. WoodsGLen...

 

You're suffering from Cessna OR Civilian aircraft flying I would believe ?

[USARStarkey]

To be entirely honest, you can land the thing at full power or next to none, it really doesn't matter. What really matters is that you have a steady hand and throttle. Don't got making 100 throttle changes a second as the torque will throw you all over the place. Just get in line with the runway at a reasonable and constant throttle setting. This can even be 3000rpms.....just make sure your power is constant as you touch down and apply flaps as necessary.

[SimFreak]

Post a track so that we can review it and then provide feedback.

[POLARIS1]

In order to maintain a constant glideslope all you need is:

1. Approach the runway at a 3 degrees glideslope (search google how the runway should look at that angle and memorize that picture).

2. Put the buttom of the runway at a fixed spot on your canopy and keep it there.

3. Put the horizon at a fixed spot on your canopy and keep it there.

Now...if you're approaching final you should be at about 120 mph...

So...once your two points of reference are fixed on the front canopy you can forget the speed and just play the throttle and joystick to maintain AOA and glideslope.

(If you want to know if you're doing it right before touchdown you can snick pick at your vertical speed ;))

Oops...don't forget to flare.

And practice practice practice.

 

Good luck :)

Edited May 20, 2014 by POLARIS1

[Strut]

Woodsglen

 

This is what i do, im not saying all the above is wrong, or im totally right, but this is my method:

- After take off I fly normally on 2700 pitch and 47 in.Hg

- towards the end of the downwind slow down to about 200mph using flaps and reducing throttle

- Gear down at about 190mph on finals

- Staying above 150mph and line up on final at about 500 ft looking for the furthest end of the runway as a reference

- reduce power till gliding on a nice flight path, (you will know instinctively whats too steep or shallow)

- aim to be flying at about 100mph when you cross the threshold

- slowly reduce power, maintain your nose up to glide as you go and allow power to come off, raise your nose as you feel the plane stating to come down (and picture the angle of the plane on take off - the nose is high up) , as your nose comes up you should gently ease the plane down .

 

Any way ive attached a track of a quick take off and landing i did, so start it up with the "Replay" button in DCS and sit back and watch it from inside and out. Hope this helps - might be a little rough, but you should get the idea.

TakeoffLandingatBatumi.trk

Edited May 21, 2014 by Strut

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

^^well, once you have enough practice, you can land the p51 in every configuration, and at different speeds...but there is a reason why approach and touchdown speeds are given in every manual...

 

i didnt read the whole post Strut, but two points dont seem to be correct to me, although they work as well....

-final approach speed above 150

(approach speed is i think 120mph in the manual, of course higher speeds work as well, but you will likely tend to ballooney again on touch down if you dont have enough practice)

-looking for the furthest end of the runway as reference

(what i hear from my FIs is the exact opposite.focus on the point where you want to touchdown, the threshold or slightly behind, and compare it with a steady point in your pit...the focused point(threshold) should remain steady and neither "climb away" or "dive away" from your reference point in the pit(i.e. the crosshair)

[Strut]

@ DavidRed -looking for the furthest end of the runway as reference-- yeah maybe i can phrase that better, but i think that with the trouble he's having maybe get him to land on the runway then when he can, he can start focusing on the "Numbers". But good points, thanks for the input.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

well you are not totally of with the "furthest end of the runway as reference"

one of my FI told me, that once you start the flare, your eyes should go up towards the horizon, trying to focus into infinty...(focusing nothing actually)...that way, your eyes should be able to perceive motion better, and therefore you should be able to notice the vertical movement better as well, resulting in a better flare and touchdown...

in real life that helped me big time with my first couple of landings.

[Vlerkies]

My blasted take-offs are more hazardous, landings fine.

Trying to be smooth on the throttle, have 6 degree right rudder dialed in but the sh1t gets real squirrely.

 

I just want to run up the runway and takeoff and still be in the same direction as the runway hehe.

:megalol:

[NeilWillis]

One key thing with all landings is that the throttle controls landing point, and elevators control speed.

 

To land further along the runway, increase power, to land shorter, decrease power.

 

To slow the airspeed, pull back on the stick, to increase airspeed, push forward on the stick.

 

The best advice in all approaches is to get set up 5 miles from runway threshold, with gear down, flaps deployed, airspeed at the designated approach speed, and rate of descent around -300 fpm, or whatever is necessary from your current altitude (which ought to be 2500 feet at the initial point) to keep you on the glideslope. Prop fully fine, and power setting to give the necessary rate of descent, pitch to control your airspeed.

 

If you have a settled, well trimmed aircraft at that point, with nothing left to concentrate on but airspeed, glideslope, and touchdown point, you'll find it is all less frantic, and you can then flare as you cross the stripes, and grease it in right on the button.

 

With tail draggers, a 3 point landing will reduce the tendency to weathercock, and if your speed is on the button, you won't balloon.

 

Beyond that, it is down to the individual aircraft characteristics, which can add complications (like the poor forward visibility over that Packard Merlin engine).

 

In the roll out, early, small rudder responses to keep the aircraft straight are the way to go.

 

One thing worth bearing in mind with all aircraft is to get the controls harmonised, so the inputs are not too sensitive. Set up your curves for each different aircraft, even with the stick extension, it'll make flying far easier all round. I generally start with a curve of around 30, and a deadzone of around 5. Then just keep adjusting until you get the balance you are happy with in terms of sensitivity and response.

Edited May 21, 2014 by NeilWillis

[Grim_Smiles]

My blasted take-offs are more hazardous, landings fine.

Trying to be smooth on the throttle, have 6 degree right rudder dialed in but the sh1t gets real squirrely.

 

I just want to run up the runway and takeoff and still be in the same direction as the runway hehe.

:megalol:

 

Good to know I'm not the only one that occasionally eats it on takeoff. No issues with landing, sometimes I've tipped forward on touchdown and grinded the prop because I was rushing to get on the ground, but it is rare that I do that. But on takeoff I tend to be twitchy on the rudder, so a 50/50 shot sometimes that I'll make it off the ground without having to get repaired (or respawn).

 

Trying to work on being a bit steadier with the rudder, getting better at it. This isn't a P-51 only issue for me, I tend to wander when going down the runway with any aircraft, but the P-51 is the only one that I end up tipping over with.

[Strut]

Good to know I'm not the only one that occasionally eats it on takeoff. No issues with landing, sometimes I've tipped forward on touchdown and grinded the prop because I was rushing to get on the ground, but it is rare that I do that. But on takeoff I tend to be twitchy on the rudder, so a 50/50 shot sometimes that I'll make it off the ground without having to get repaired (or respawn).

 

Trying to work on being a bit steadier with the rudder, getting better at it. This isn't a P-51 only issue for me, I tend to wander when going down the runway with any aircraft, but the P-51 is the only one that I end up tipping over with.

 

 

I have found that using about 2 or 3 degrees of right rudder is more than ample for takeoff, i still get a bit of instability in keeping the plane straight , sometimes its smooth, but i found using a full 6 degrees is a bit much - would also depend on cross winds as well. I think that if you gently throttle up to about 55 -60 in.Hg for take off it gives you a smoother run . Of course i might just be doing it all wrong and just being lucky :)

Edited May 21, 2014 by Strut

[Vlerkies]

TT I only struggle with the 51 really. I seem to be chasing the nose to get it straight again with the rudder, rather than being able to anticipate where it is going to go before it happens to correct.

 

Not many hours on it so just need some more practice I think but landings are pretty easy now.

Key for me was approach speed more than anything else, around 100-110 over the threshold, then flare to 90 and she sits down very nicely.

[howie87]

1) Point nose at runway

2) Increase dive angle

3) Fly at the ground under full power

4) Pull up so hard at the threshold that both your wings come off at the same time

5) Slide effortlessly to a stop just in time to congratulate yourself on a job well done

 

You're a real man now, son.

 

(pic related)

 

Edited May 22, 2014 by howie87

[Grim_Smiles]

I have found that using about 2 or 3 degrees of right rudder is more than ample for takeoff, i still get a bit of instability in keeping the plane straight , sometimes its smooth, but i found using a full 6 degrees is a bit much - would also depend on cross winds as well. I think that if you gently throttle up to about 55 -60 in.Hg for take off it gives you a smoother run . Of course i might just be doing it all wrong and just being lucky :)

 

Thanks for the tips on the rudder trim as I believe I've been doing the full amount previously, and especially the throttle management. That may be what my problem is, I'm shoving the throttle all the way to the stops too quickly no matter the aircraft. I basically turn into this soon as I get on the runway:

 

 

TT I only struggle with the 51 really. I seem to be chasing the nose to get it straight again with the rudder, rather than being able to anticipate where it is going to go before it happens to correct.

 

Not many hours on it so just need some more practice I think but landings are pretty easy now.

Key for me was approach speed more than anything else, around 100-110 over the threshold, then flare to 90 and she sits down very nicely.

 

That's another issue as well for me, I don't compensate for where it'll go. Then once it does start going one way I tend to over compensate. I definitely need more practice as well. I can fly fine (haven't tried formation flying but can still fly and fight fine) and I can land just fine. But sometimes I just get squirrelly on the takeoffs.

 

Trying to clean up my ground handling and takeoff before I try going on multiplayer. I figure I'd probably piss people off on the DoW server if they are constantly having to dodge my wreck just to use the runway: "Oh that douche-canoe TooTall flipped it again, go around everyone".

[Eponsky_bot]

[Strut]

Eponsky bot that is a bloody great little vid, very clever, its almost like your doing a landing trying to drain the last drops of beer out of a can with one eye on the beer and one on the deck......

[Whiplash]

I figure I'd probably piss people off on the DoW server if they are constantly having to dodge my wreck just to use the runway: "Oh that douche-canoe TooTall flipped it again, go around everyone".

 

I might have to steel that phrase for a more appropriate application but I can assure you that no one will be calling you a Douche-Canoe on the server ;) I know for me personally, I start to get excited when I see three or more people in there, I could really care less if they are crashing into each other.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

Thanks for the tips on the rudder trim as I believe I've been doing the full amount previously, and especially the throttle management. That may be what my problem is, I'm shoving the throttle all the way to the stops too quickly no matter the aircraft. I basically turn into this soon as I get on the runway:

 

 

 

 

That's another issue as well for me, I don't compensate for where it'll go. Then once it does start going one way I tend to over compensate. I definitely need more practice as well. I can fly fine (haven't tried formation flying but can still fly and fight fine) and I can land just fine. But sometimes I just get squirrelly on the takeoffs.

 

Trying to clean up my ground handling and takeoff before I try going on multiplayer. I figure I'd probably piss people off on the DoW server if they are constantly having to dodge my wreck just to use the runway: "Oh that douche-canoe TooTall flipped it again, go around everyone".

 

:)funny but totally wrong mate!!!

as long as you dont shoot friendly planes on purpose, there is hardly anything i can think of where you could piss people off on our server...

its the opposite actually...we enjoy to have new people joining us, even if it means to fly with them flight patterns and doing touch and go's for hours.

 

EDIT: as for rudder trim...there is a quote somewhere on this forum from a RL p51 pilot who states, that those 6° right rudder trim are not meant for take off, but for a trimmed out flight at max continuous power settings.(46"hg,2700rpm).

now, this is where i assume, that our p51 in dcs could be improved, as when you trim 6° to the right, the plane is everything but trimmed out...

having said that, i think, that its actually easier to take off with centered trim.at least thats what im doing,havent trimmed the plane for take offs for ages now, and i dont feel any disadvantage...

and i think, the most important thing for an "easy" take off, is to have the stick pulled back until you reach sufficient speed ~70mph or higher but <100mph, and only then center it to get the tailwheel up...at this point a slight aileron deflection to the right can help as well.with the stick pulled back, you dont need rudder or rudder trim at all...the take off will not be on the center line this way, but its possible to take off without the use of rudder whatsoever...

Edited May 23, 2014 by 9./JG27 DavidRed

[lesnyborsuk]

:)funny but totally wrong mate!!!

as long as you dont shoot friendly planes on purpose, there is hardly anything i can think of where you could piss people off on our server...

its the opposite actually...we enjoy to have new people joining us, even if it means to fly with them flight patterns and doing touch and go's for hours.

 

Sorry for offtopic, but I thought that DoW server was only for dogfighting (I have never joined it before). I am little bored with Virtual Aerobatics since I have mastered basics of flying P51, but I am rather a cannon fodder with dogfighting. I am looking for some oportunity to improve that. Do you have your own teamspeak? Will there be some good souls that could give me some advices rather than rain of bullets? :smilewink: