Strengths and weaknesses Dora/Mustang

[Vlerkies]

Dora pilots are pretty much going to be a bunch of FNG's in the virtual world for a bit, coming up against some P-51 Mustang Pilots with many hours of training under the belt.

 

So as a FNG is there a thread anywhere or can we start one here that lists the do's and dont's of flying and surviving in the Dora?

[Narushima]

Keep it under 6000m, and if you somehow get into a turn fight, just point the nose up, using the Dora's 400HP engine advantage. Force the turn fight into a spiral climb, yo-yos (which can turn into rolling scissors) or flat scissors, utilizing the Dora's superior roll rate.

 

Their turning circles are comparable, with the advantage going to whoever has less fuel and can use their flaps better.

 

Speed bellow 6000m is comparable, with the Dora holding a small top speed and acceleration advantage.

 

If caught above 6000m dive to terminal velocity and use the electrically driven all movable horizontal stabilizer trim to recover from the dive. The P-51 lacks that and will be affected by compressibility more, meaning in theory it should overshoot you.

[Vlerkies]

Thx

This is gonna be cracking!!

:)

[ARM505]

I still have fond memories of tearing through a herd of Mustangs on the old South African SGS IL2 servers, cries of 'Who's that!' over comms following on as Ponies fell from the sky.....(hey, it happened, even if only once!)

 

Looking forward to this one, the 190 remains my favourite.

[Vlerkies]

Arm, how the hell are you man?

 

Yeah, there was that one map 190's vs 51's, made for some epic duels!

 

Bateleur and I flew that more than once just 1 on 1 for hours.

 

Great fun!

[USARStarkey]

Over 20,000 Feet the mustang is King, plain and simple. It is more agile at all speeds and at all altitudes, especially up high. As the altitude increases, the 190s climb advantage remains but becomes much smaller. over 20,000 feet the Mustang becomes increasingly faster than the dora, and over 30k it is simply no contest.

 

Low Speed Turn: Mustang

 

High Speed Turn: Mustang

 

High speed: Depends on boost. under 4000m its a tossup based on how the dora and pony are modeled. Between 4000 and 6000m Dora is faster. Over 6000 the Mustang wins, and by alot, especially as you get higher.

 

Dive: Mustang

 

Climb: Dora, at all heights, but not by a huge amount over 20k.

[theChris]

Over 20,000 Feet the mustang is King, plain and simple. It is more agile at all speeds and at all altitudes, especially up high. As the altitude increases, the 190s climb advantage remains but becomes much smaller. over 20,000 feet the Mustang becomes increasingly faster than the dora, and over 30k it is simply no contest.

 

Low Speed Turn: Mustang

 

High Speed Turn: Mustang

 

High speed: Depends on boost. under 4000m its a tossup based on how the dora and pony are modeled. Between 4000 and 6000m Dora is faster. Over 6000 the Mustang wins, and by alot, especially as you get higher.

 

Dive: Mustang

 

Climb: Dora, at all heights, but not by a huge amount over 20k.

 

Low speed turn: Dora, try maneuvering a plane with engine off, while drastic this wil show you the importance of horse power while turning

 

edit: Dive: debateable, can be split into different categories like low initial speed dive:Dora, high initial speed dive:p-51, Dive recovery: Dora.

 

High speed turn: pilot (opinion)

Edited August 5, 2014 by theChris

[USARStarkey]

Low speed turn: Dora, try maneuvering a plane with engine off, while drastic this wil show you the importance of horse power while turning

 

The Dora does not out turn the 51. You barely have to try in order to defeat the excellent AI in a turn. Nor does it out turn the 51 in other sim. This will be evident soon enough tomorrow.

 

Dive recovery is debatable, depends on alot of factors, not just that bloody trip tab.- up to and including the 51's lower drag, and more sophisticated trim system overall. Have you dove the mustang? even in compression it can still be maneavered even at high alti, when most planes would be complete bricks.

 

Initial dive speed is irrelevant, you will be at low speeds for such short amount of time, and at higher altitudes your forced to fly faster just to stay airborne, and at high speeds the better initial acceleration of the Dora is even more irrelevant because youll start every maneuver at high speed.

Edited August 5, 2014 by USARStarkey

[Yob]

The Dora does not out turn the 51. You barely have to try in order to defeat the excellent AI in a turn. Nor does it out turn the 51 in other sim. This will be evident soon enough tomorrow.

 

Dive recovery is debatable, depends on alot of factors, not just that bloody trip tab.- up to and including the 51's lower drag, and more sophisticated trim system overall. Have you dove the mustang? even in compression it can still be maneavered even at high alti, when most planes would be complete bricks.

 

Initial dive speed is irrelevant, you will be at low speeds for such short amount of time, and at higher altitudes your forced to fly faster just to stay airborne, and at high speeds the better initial acceleration of the Dora is even more irrelevant because youll start every maneuver at high speed.

 

oh yes quite right......

 

but if you have ever flown on the dogs of war server you will know most engagements currently occur at low atitude so really why are you making such a issue about it...

 

and some 190 pilots did out turn 51 pilots. so i personaly believe it is more pilot then aircraft.

[USARStarkey]

The ability of a pilot to outturn a better turning plane, confers not that advantage upon the airframe, but on the disparity in skill. 190D pilots were initially very dismayed that the Dora was not as agile as the A in either turn or roll.

[DB 605]

Lt. Karl-Heinz Ossenkopf's comparison with Mustang:

 

In normal combat maneuvers they were both about equal, however D9 had a little advantage. In a dive, Mustang was slightly faster.

 

His summary against best allied planes:

 

"Overall, we pilots of JG 26 were very pleased with these new machines. Yes, we were doubtful at first, but we became more confident and felt we at least were equal or in some cases, even better allowing us to win the battle in a Fw 190 D9."

 

Source: "The Focke Wulf Fw 190 Dora", Jerry Crandall

[Narushima]

Lt. Karl-Heinz Ossenkopf's comparison with Mustang:

 

In normal combat maneuvers they were both about equal, however D9 had a little advantage. In a dive, Mustang was slightly faster.

 

His summary against best allied planes:

 

"Overall, we pilots of JG 26 were very pleased with these new machines. Yes, we were doubtful at first, but we became more confident and felt we at least were equal or in some cases, even better allowing us to win the battle in a Fw 190 D9."

 

Source: "The Focke Wulf Fw 190 Dora", Jerry Crandall

 

That's a nice summary.

 

Eric Brown (British test pilot) had good things to say about it:

The fabulous D arises

 

During the spring of 1944, the D-Dora-series was introduced; each had a 1,776hp Junkers Jumo 213A-1 12-cylinder, liquid-cooled engine. To compensate for the fuselage's long nose, the vertical tail surfaces were larger, and the aircraft was an immediate success. The first production model was designated "Fw 190D-9," as it was intended to be a replacement for the A-8 on assembly lines. It was fitted with two 20mm cannon in the wings and two .50-caliber (13mm) machine guns mounted above the engine-a first for the .50-caliber guns and a big step forward in armament output. Provision was made for an MW-50 water/methanol injection system that would boost the power of the Jumo 213A to 2,240hp for short periods. For D-series pilots, another important device was its automatic shifting at two scheduled altitudes to ensure that the two-stage supercharger would maintain the correct engine power as altitude increased.

 

The Dora 9 was one of the finest piston-engine fighters I have ever flown; it ranks among my top five with the Spitfire XIV, the Grumman Bearcat, the Hawker Sea Fury and the North American P-51D Mustang IV. It had all the handling qualities of the A-series, and its performance was outstanding. Top speed was 426mph (685km/h) at 21,500 feet (6,500m) and 357mph (574km/h) at sea level. Initial rate of climb was 3,500 feet per minute, and its service ceiling was 40,000 feet. With an MW-50 water/methanol injection, it reached a speed of 453mph (730km/h). Seven hundred Doras were produced, but a shortage of pilots and aviation fuel during this period (the fall of 1944) meant that the Dora's full military potential was never utilized.

 

Though I wonder what Dora he flew. Seems like he flew a D-9 with C3 Fuel. He mentions the 213A and rates it at 2,240hp.

 

Anyway, what's interesting is this statement:

"It had all the handling qualities of the A-series"

 

There's this myth circulating around the internet, that for some reason the Dora was less manoeuvrable than the Antons, even though it had almost the same air frame and wings than the A-8, while also being slightly lighter, having more engine power, and better center of gravity balance.

 

A-8 were notoriously unbalanced when flying at full fuel, this issue was somewhat mitigated by installing the ETC rack a bit forward and never taken off.

[Krupi]

I think the myth comes from an Allied test of a repaired Dora that was probably trimmed badly etc alas we cannot prove this.

 

However no German pilots mention this degradation in handling.

[NineLine]

I think you guys will find that Dora pilots wont take long to catch up to their Mustang counterparts, she is a dream to fly ;)

[USARStarkey]

The Dora has its own advantages, but one of them is not turn.

 

The A model does not even remotely have the same air frame by any stretch of the imagination. The D is more or less a totally different plane than the A. Different engine, Different wings, different air-frame. It is a 190 only in name.

 

As for its qualities:

 

"17 December: The Second Gruppe pilots returned to the front and their new base at Nördhorn-Clausheide in seventy-four Fw 190D-9s, their numbers bolstered by twenty brand-new pilots. The pilot’s opinions of the “long-nosed Dora”, or Dora-9, as it was variously nicknamed, were mixed. The new model was intended to correct the Fw 190’s most glaring weakness, its poor high altitude performance. What came out of Kurt Tank’s shop was a compromise. Tank did not like the liquid-cooled Jumo 213A engine, but it was the best choice available. The long in-line engine had to be balanced by a lengthened rear fuselage to maintain the proper center of gravity, making the Fw 190D four feet longer than the Fw 190A. The new airplane lacked the high turn rate and incredible rate of roll of its close-coupled radial-engined predecessor. It was a bit faster, however, with a maximum speed of 680 km/h (422 mph) at 6600 meters (21,650 feet).Its 2240 horespower with methanol-water injection (MW 50) gave it an excellent acceleration in combat situations. It also climbed and dived more rapidly than the Fw 190A, and so proved well suited to the dive-and-zoom ambush tactics favored by the Schlageter pilots. Many of the early models were not equipped with tanks for methanol, which was in very short supply in any event. At low altitude, the top speed and acceleration of these examples were inferior to those of Allied fighters. Hans Hartigs recalled that only one of the first batch of Dora-9s received by the First Gruppe had methanol-water injection, and the rest had a top speed of only 590 km/h (360 mph)."

[Krupi]

When I get home I will post pilots accounts with references that say the polar opposite.

[Narushima]

I think you guys will find that Dora pilots wont take long to catch up to their Mustang counterparts, she is a dream to fly ;)

 

Why must you tease us so...

[upupandaway]

Why must you tease us so...

 

+1

 

It´s high time she gets released so the discussion can be taken to a more appropriate level.

[NineLine]

Sorry, I was very disappointed to see the delay as well, I am heavily vested into the Dora and am very excited for you guys to get your hands on it... :)

 

Even adding 1-2 more days, its worth the wait :)

[Krupi]

Starkey, I have refrained from saying anything about your last couple of posts but you seem to be on a highly biased anti axis aircraft charge at present. I really hope this is not the case!

[NineLine]

Starkey, I have refrained from saying anything about your last couple of posts but you seem to be on a highly biased anti axis aircraft charge at present. I really hope this is not the case!

 

I am sticking to my assessment of the Dora... that is its lucky the Allies had a numerical/supply advantage at this time in the war.... This coming from someone that loves the Spitfire more than any of these birds ;)

[159th_Viper]

Those cannons...........Beware those Cannons..........

 

The Mustang drivers are in for some Hidings of note!

[USARStarkey]

I think the myth comes from an Allied test of a repaired Dora that was probably trimmed badly etc alas we cannot prove this.

 

However no German pilots mention this degradation in handling.

 

We could debate this all day, so lets not waste our time.

 

What is not debatable is how they handle in game. The 190D is not as good a turner at low speeds in DCS. It is laughably easy to out-turn the ai, and the ai flys that thing right to the limit.

[NineLine]

There is only one place to settle this argument... I need to log into the DoW server now :)

[Vlerkies]

Pony pilots already have their heads on a swivel looking behind them. :fear:

Don't worry lads, a stay of execution, at least for a day or 2.

 

:lol: