1st impressions

[msalama]

The first landing attempt resulted in a crash. No manuals perused. But since I'm a seasoned guru, the modelling is to blame of course.

 

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For the humorously challenged: A BAD JOKE

 

Thanks for the Butcher Bird, f***n excellent guys :) S!

[NeilWillis]

My first impressions were that this is an ace module.

 

However, having flown it more, and compared the flight model to that of the P51D, I'd suggest that the take off roll needs to be toned down a little. I have flown tail draggers for a while, and although I have no problem getting the P51D smoothly into the air, the Fw 190 D-9 seems to me to be overly sensitive.

 

Another point is customisation of the controls. We definitely need the throttle to be sorted, so it can be operated from cold/dark to flying using only a throttle lever. There is a mod out for this, but come on guys, was it so difficult that you couldn't have incorporated it from the outset? In addition, flaps control needs to be manageable from the TM Warthog flaps switch too. Is that so difficult to accomplish when a mod for that was also released within a few days of release?

 

There are a few other minor points regarding sight operation etc that have been addressed elsewhere on the forum, and I am sure all the above will be looked at soon.

 

To my mind, the only one that is a deal breaker at present is the fact that take off with the assists turned off is very difficult. I have no doubt the purists will all be baying for blood at the mere thought of touching that, but for wider appeal - it needs attention. I also find it hard to believe that the real Fw 190 D-9 had such a sensitive rudder. I have reluctantly added a curve, but nevertheless, in flight, making a coordinated turn is very difficult due to the tiny inputs required.

 

Please don't take this as anything but constructive criticism, I am fully aware that this is a beta release, and my comments are intended purely to pass on my gut feelings so far. This is without doubt, another priceless, excellent addition to the stable. Thanks guys.

[Flagrum]

(..) the Fw 190 D-9 seems to me to be overly sensitive.

(...)

To my mind, the only one that is a deal breaker at present is the fact that take off with the assists turned off is very difficult.(...)

At first I hade immense difficulties to get her into the air ... in one piece. But after a while, it made "click" and now I have no major problems anymore. And that although I am not really experienced with propeller aircrafts, let alone tail draggers.

 

But my experience is, there is no real "transistion" in learning the difference between doing it wrong and taking off "right". I did not "get better over time". I failed like 20 - 30 times in a row, ended up always on the left side of the runway. Every few attempts I came back to the forums and read what others experienced and suggested. But to no avail... until I had all of the 3-4 relevant aspects right. Then it suddenly just worked.

 

Maybe it is just me and my lack of experience with this kind of aircrafts that I can't tell that - or if at all - I had a learning "curve". To me it just appeared as if it was just "yes or no", "0 or 1". So I doubt that some sort of "tuning" of the aircrafts behaviour would really help. "Just do it right" and it will be easy as pie. :o)

[[DBS]TH0R]

Well color me purist then since I have no problems T/O and landing (even two pointer) with Dora. :)

 

Another point is customisation of the controls. We definitely need the throttle to be sorted, so it can be operated from cold/dark to flying using only a throttle lever. There is a mod out for this, but come on guys, was it so difficult that you couldn't have incorporated it from the outset? In addition, flaps control needs to be manageable from the TM Warthog flaps switch too. Is that so difficult to accomplish when a mod for that was also released within a few days of release?

 

I doubt you will get flaps control on TM Hog, it has to do with how DCS handles controls. Marriage of controls between TM Hog and the A-10 module is another thing. Use TARGET.

 

Not sure I understand, what do you think is wrong with the throttle?

 

 

 

Absolutely and ace module. Great work ED.

Edited August 11, 2014 by T}{OR

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

I have to disagree regarding the takeoff, and the flaps controls.

 

I have mapped my Thurstmaster Cougar HOTAS using the flaps button and another one. Up - retracts, down sets TO flaps, the other button ( clickable RDR CURSOS / ENABLE ) is used for LDG flaps.

 

Takeoffs are simple and smooth. Have tried with up to 10ms x-wind, and also tail wind!!!!

 

Just don't pull on the manche all the way back, and ease it around 120km/h. Use aileron into the wind, correct with rudder, pay attention to torque as you leave the ground.

 

It's a simply remarkable model! NO Takeoff or rudder assist!!!!

[ZaltysZ]

Take offs and landings with Dora requires subtle corrections and overcorrection quickly leads to disaster. Nothing to difficult, however this is true only for high FPS.

 

I have successfully taken off from second try in SP, but crashed first 8 or so times in MP just because I had 25 FPS at runway. 40 FPS takeoffs are very relaxing, 25 FPS take offs feels like old school undercontrol/overcontrol mess created by flying with keyboard. I wonder if others having problems with take off also suffer from low FPS.

[MACADEMIC]

Take offs and landings with Dora requires subtle corrections and overcorrection quickly leads to disaster. Nothing to difficult, however this is true only for high FPS.

 

I have successfully taken off from second try in SP, but crashed first 8 or so times in MP just because I had 25 FPS at runway. 40 FPS takeoffs are very relaxing, 25 FPS take offs feels like old school undercontrol/overcontrol mess created by flying with keyboard. I wonder if others having problems with take off also suffer from low FPS.

 

VERY good point!

 

:thumbup:

 

MAC

[Derbysieger]

Well color me purist then since I have no problems T/O and landing (even two pointer) with Dora. :)

 

 

 

I doubt you will get flaps control on TM Hog, it has to do with how DCS handles controls. Marriage of controls between TM Hog and the A-10 module is another thing. Use TARGET.

 

Not sure I understand, what do you think is wrong with the throttle?

 

It's definitely possible. I think he is talking about the idle detent on the throttle and that it doesn't work for the Dora by default.

Flaps and throttle work like that in the default profile for the A-10C and a little default.lua mod achieved the same for the Dora on the first day after release.

 

Of course you can use TARGET but that's not what he was talking about.

[[DBS]TH0R]

It's definitely possible. I think he is talking about the idle detent on the throttle and that it doesn't work for the Dora by default.

Flaps and throttle work like that in the default profile for the A-10C and a little default.lua mod achieved the same for the Dora on the first day after release.

 

Of course you can use TARGET but that's not what he was talking about.

 

If that is what he was referring to, then I agree wholeheartedly. It would be nice to have those controls 'bind-able' by default without messing about with TARGET or .lua files.

[NeilWillis]

That's it in a nutshell guys. The throttle should be able to work from cold, i.e. moving from the off position to idle should be functional in Fw 190 D-9 AND F-86F.

 

I'm not saying take offs can't be perfected, but jeez it takes a lot of effort to get there, and that will put a lot of people off in my opinion. Maybe a more detailed description of the take off run is required?

 

The flaps and throttle issues are so easily fixed, I am just surprised that ED haven't addressed it this early in the development.

[DB 605]

Take-offs and landings feels pretty damn near exactly like i've read from pilot accounts. And they are easy and straight forward once you know exactly what need to do. I'd say more practise :)

 

It's still beta, and it needs some little corrections here and there. But overall the whole plane, like P-51D, feels about the most accurately done WW2 plane in sim history in my opinion. Can't wait october now...

[159th_Viper]

I'm not saying take offs can't be perfected, but jeez it takes a lot of effort to get there...

 

For some it does. For others it took a couple of minutes.

 

It's all in the rudder-dance and if you cannot 'feel' what's necessary before it becomes necessary then you are always going to be chasing your tail. This, coupled with our divergent choices of peripherals, has the effect of some struggling while others do not.

 

.....and that will put a lot of people off in my opinion...

 

Which is exactly what the myriad of assists are there for: For some a necessity, for others a learning tool. Toggle them on, see what the PC does in order to take off and replicate - Monkey See, Monkey Doo. Cannot be simpler. DCS does EVERYTHING but hold the spoon for us - all we gotta do is get the spoon to our mouths.

 

And no, there is absolutely no shame in using the assists. It's every individual's SIM to fly it as they want to. If they wish to utilize the assists as an invaluable learning aid then good for them. Everything you need to know if you're struggling is there for the taking - all you gotta do is tick the box.

[NeilWillis]

For some it does. For others it took a couple of minutes.

 

It's all in the rudder-dance and if you cannot 'feel' what's necessary before it becomes necessary then you are always going to be chasing your tail. This, coupled with our divergent choices of peripherals, has the effect of some struggling while others do not.

 

 

 

Which is exactly what the myriad of assists are there for: For some a necessity, for others a learning tool. Toggle them on, see what the PC does in order to take off and replicate - Monkey See, Monkey Doo. Cannot be simpler. DCS does EVERYTHING but hold the spoon for us - all we gotta do is get the spoon to our mouths.

 

And no, there is absolutely no shame in using the assists. It's every individual's SIM to fly it as they want to. If they wish to utilize the assists as an invaluable learning aid then good for them. Everything you need to know if you're struggling is there for the taking - all you gotta do is tick the box.

 

Fully understood Viper, and of course, you're absolutely right. I cannot criticise the module for being realistic. However, the thread title is "First Impressions" my comments were aimed at a general feel of things, and come from someone who has been a DCS fan for a very long time.

 

I feel there is a real need to add a lot more detail to the take off procedures entry in the manual. No mention is made of the simulation, and how to set the assists, or even that they exist at all. Nothing is said about how to get the controls set up either. There is just a single paragraph for what is the most difficult aspect of flight in this module. Manuals tend to be neglected, and of course, the Fw 190 D-9 is better in that regard than some of the others. Perhaps I could assist in that regard.

 

As I said, I hold DCS in very high esteem. My comments are just how I perceive things at present. The controls need refinement (as I mentioned earlier), and the take off sequence is difficult. Some would throw a tantrum at that point and say to everyone that the module is awful. It isn't, far from it. But it is how some people have seen it.

 

For me, there is no point using assists because realism is what it is about. So far, I have severely dented the German war effort, and single handedly put war production in jeopardy, but I'll stick at it, and I will get a grip with the Dora. Others certainly won't, and that's the point I was making.

Edited August 11, 2014 by NeilWillis

[Flagrum]

I feel there is a real need to add a lot more detail to the take off procedures entry in the manual. No mention is made of the simulation, and how to set the assists, or even that they exist at all. Nothing is said about how to get the controls set up either. There is just a single paragraph for what is the most difficult aspect of flight in this module. Manuals tend to be neglected, and of course, the Fw 190 D-9 is better in that regard than some of the others. Perhaps I could assist in that regard.

I agree, the manual could be fleshed out more - and that not only regarding take off or landing.

 

For example, I am still unhappy about the chapter about the radio. I mentioned this already in the thread where Chiz posted the preliminary manual. For me it lacks a few words of some kind of introduction, how the radio was used ("Y-Führungsverfahren"? hrm?), the procedures when and how ADF homing (AFN-2) is used, some explanation of the limitations (Frequency I is not used in the simulation? Really? Why eactly not?), and some more.

 

And the EZ42 seems to be a bit underdocumented as well - that is at least my impresion after the latest research and the findings we made here on the forum the last days.

 

Maybe we should start a new thread about how (or if?) we think the manual should look like and perhaps gather all information we already collected, maybe even provide some reworked chapters for inclusion into the official manual ...

[NineLine]

Manual is in beta as well, I think there will be additions.

 

I agree, the manual could be fleshed out more - and that not only regarding take off or landing.

 

For example, I am still unhappy about the chapter about the radio. I mentioned this already in the thread where Chiz posted the preliminary manual. For me it lacks a few words of some kind of introduction, how the radio was used ("Y-Führungsverfahren"? hrm?), the procedures when and how ADF homing (AFN-2) is used, some explanation of the limitations (Frequency I is not used in the simulation? Really? Why eactly not?), and some more.

 

And the EZ42 seems to be a bit underdocumented as well - that is at least my impresion after the latest research and the findings we made here on the forum the last days.

 

Maybe we should start a new thread about how (or if?) we think the manual should look like and perhaps gather all information we already collected, maybe even provide some reworked chapters for inclusion into the official manual ...

[cichlidfan]

I am just glad to have a manual.

[zaelu]

To my mind, the only one that is a deal breaker at present is the fact that take off with the assists turned off is very difficult.

 

 

Why do you turn it off? It's slider isn't it? You want it to be hidden so you have the false impression that you take off in full sim? :P

 

If is wrong then it can be patched but if it's right... why would you want it tuned down... instead of using that assist? :smartass:

 

P.S. I didn't flew it yet as I have no HOTAS attached to PC yet.

[Flagrum]

Manual is in beta as well, I think there will be additions.

Roger. :o)

I was just thinking if we could help there. There is already quite a lot of information here sprinkled around in this sub-forum that could be worth to be included into the manual. But it probably could use some better structuring to be really helpfull for that purpose.

[NeilWillis]

Why do you turn it off? It's slider isn't it? You want it to be hidden so you have the false impression that you take off in full sim? :P

 

If is wrong then it can be patched but if it's right... why would you want it tuned down... instead of using that assist? :smartass:

 

P.S. I didn't flew it yet as I have no HOTAS attached to PC yet.

 

Turned off - in other words, slider set to zero - meaning no take off assistance.

 

If the real aircraft was a handful, as the module is, then I guess DCS have nailed it in that respect. I want to fly as close to the prototype as I can. It's just bloody frustrating to begin with, and that was why I commented the way I did. If it is a true reflection on the prototype, then I'll keep at it until I can do it well. A few pointers would have made the process far easier, and less trial and error - and let's face it, the real pilots only got one chance to get it right, and no assists slider was there for them.

Edited August 11, 2014 by NeilWillis

[Hook47]

My first impressions were that this is an ace module.

 

However, having flown it more, and compared the flight model to that of the P51D, I'd suggest that the take off roll needs to be toned down a little. I have flown tail draggers for a while, and although I have no problem getting the P51D smoothly into the air, the Fw 190 D-9 seems to me to be overly sensitive.

 

Another point is customisation of the controls. We definitely need the throttle to be sorted, so it can be operated from cold/dark to flying using only a throttle lever. There is a mod out for this, but come on guys, was it so difficult that you couldn't have incorporated it from the outset? In addition, flaps control needs to be manageable from the TM Warthog flaps switch too. Is that so difficult to accomplish when a mod for that was also released within a few days of release?

 

There are a few other minor points regarding sight operation etc that have been addressed elsewhere on the forum, and I am sure all the above will be looked at soon.

 

To my mind, the only one that is a deal breaker at present is the fact that take off with the assists turned off is very difficult. I have no doubt the purists will all be baying for blood at the mere thought of touching that, but for wider appeal - it needs attention. I also find it hard to believe that the real Fw 190 D-9 had such a sensitive rudder. I have reluctantly added a curve, but nevertheless, in flight, making a coordinated turn is very difficult due to the tiny inputs required.

 

Please don't take this as anything but constructive criticism, I am fully aware that this is a beta release, and my comments are intended purely to pass on my gut feelings so far. This is without doubt, another priceless, excellent addition to the stable. Thanks guys.

You are right, I don't find omissions like that to be acceptable. . . Another thing that bothers me is that ED seems to have gotten on the "Beta release" band wagon with BST. Forgive me if I fail to recall, but isn't this the first aircraft they released with "Beta" tagged onto the name? It's not that I mind a Beta, it's just that I mind how long they tend to last.

 

Still, the aircraft is beautiful and a joy to fly, but I would like ED to get those few shortcomings patched up right away.

[NeilWillis]

I think the consensus on this forum at least was that we wanted to get hold of the module, even if it wasn't the final fully polished version.

 

All my comments are based on the fact that the beta release is out here for us to say what we like and don't like about it, as part of the release process. Don't for a minute think I am being critical because I don't like the module because I love it. I'm glad it was released early, and I am content to wait for the full release for as long as ED need to perfect it. It's given me enough time to get the thing into the air before the full release hits the marketplace :) :)

[cichlidfan]

Forgive me if I fail to recall, but isn't this the first aircraft they released with "Beta" tagged onto the name?

 

Unless you count the A-10 or the P-51D.

[Kelevra]

My first impressions were that this is an ace module.

 

However, having flown it more, and compared the flight model to that of the P51D, I'd suggest that the take off roll needs to be toned down a little. I have flown tail draggers for a while, and although I have no problem getting the P51D smoothly into the air, the Fw 190 D-9 seems to me to be overly sensitive.

 

Another point is customisation of the controls. We definitely need the throttle to be sorted, so it can be operated from cold/dark to flying using only a throttle lever. There is a mod out for this, but come on guys, was it so difficult that you couldn't have incorporated it from the outset? In addition, flaps control needs to be manageable from the TM Warthog flaps switch too. Is that so difficult to accomplish when a mod for that was also released within a few days of release?

 

There are a few other minor points regarding sight operation etc that have been addressed elsewhere on the forum, and I am sure all the above will be looked at soon.

 

To my mind, the only one that is a deal breaker at present is the fact that take off with the assists turned off is very difficult. I have no doubt the purists will all be baying for blood at the mere thought of touching that, but for wider appeal - it needs attention. I also find it hard to believe that the real Fw 190 D-9 had such a sensitive rudder. I have reluctantly added a curve, but nevertheless, in flight, making a coordinated turn is very difficult due to the tiny inputs required.

 

Please don't take this as anything but constructive criticism, I am fully aware that this is a beta release, and my comments are intended purely to pass on my gut feelings so far. This is without doubt, another priceless, excellent addition to the stable. Thanks guys.

Dora overly sensitive : no !

You need some time practicing takeoffs : I would bet on it.

 

I crashed a few times before succeeding.

It never came to my mind to blame the FM, even to criticize in a constructive manner sake's.