How to Land the Dora

[Yo-Yo]

I guess that the guy flew Dora did not know that it's extremely hard to do it...

(wind from right 15 m/s with 3.5 m/s turbulence RMS, landing at 12 m/s and 2.5 m/s RMS)

 

 

As you can see the pilot did nothing from circus - just right speed, right altitude and right coordinated inputs. By the way - one can see that ground handling with free tailwheel is easy...

[Rabbit_]

I guess that the guy flew Dora did not know that it's extremely hard to do it...

(wind from right 15 m/s with 3.5 m/s turbulence RMS, landing at 12 m/s and 2.5 m/s RMS)

 

As you can see the pilot did nothing from circus - just right speed, right altitude and right coordinated inputs. By the way - one can see that ground handling with free tailwheel is easy...

 

True. A lot of people just train and then flying ok. Of course there never will be everything 100% real in a computer simulator and if someone says, he hasn't experienced anything like this in IRL, well....maybe because people usually don't fly with FWs these days. :thumbup:

 

And no offense. I don't mean it in a bad manner.

[Yo-Yo]

http://youtu.be/QTcFb-0USP8 :D

[X93355]

...

 

When first attempting to land the Dora (I learned it before the Mustang) I tried to set her down on the main landing gear, keeping the tail wheel up in the air.

If you come down like this, you are certain to be coming down way too hard.

....

 

I've had a good look at all the replies before commenting. The thing is that you should be able to land the aircraft on the main wheels with the tail up. You shouldn't have to three point it. There seems to be quite a number of real life pilots here (me included) so I struggle with the fact that you can't two point this sucker no matter how smoothly you are on the controls and throttle over the threshold.

Without a doubt, take off is easy if you use constant rudder adjustments and your peripheral vision.

 

The problem with simulators is that you don't have the feedback in the rudders that it needs (and other inputs). Are there any force feedback rudder pedals out there?

 

DCS for me is about getting as close as you can to real life flying without the cost so when some people here say it's not quite right then I would agree. For those of you who don't have extensions to your joysticks, definitely look into it as it does change the feel and accuracy of your control.

[Yo-Yo]

I've had a good look at all the replies before commenting. The thing is that you should be able to land the aircraft on the main wheels with the tail up. You shouldn't have to three point it. There seems to be quite a number of real life pilots here (me included) so I struggle with the fact that you can't two point this sucker no matter how smoothly you are on the controls and throttle over the threshold.

any force feedback rudder pedals out there?

 

 

D9 in its combat configuration was not intended for two wheels landing - the pilots used only three point landing.

Of course, it does not mean that it's totally impossible to perform a wheeler either in RL or in DCS.

 

As usual, it's the lack of acceleration info that makes To and landing harder than in RL.

 

But...

[Boris]

I just attempted a two wheel landing in the Dora. It's nowhere near as elegant as the landing in Yo-Yo's video, but it is still on two wheels.

Looks a bit like the air show video landings. The important part is to keep your rate of descent as low as possible. I'm sure it would be even better to come in a little fast or lighten the fuel load.

In any case, it's totally possible.

 

Track below...

Dora Landing.trk

[[DBS]TH0R]

IMHO the two pointer is even easier than with the Mustang due to P-51's center of gravity so far back.

[EddieJames]

The ground handling in DCS PFM is way to sensitive especially the suspension part, way way over done! That's why landings are more difficult then they need & should be.

In my whole IRL flying, I've never experienced what DCS replicates in that regard.

 

This is the same thing I am experiencing. I can get on the ground, that is not the issue.

 

I just took off for the first time in the Mustang last night. I actually started with the Dora. Anyway, I took off and landed on my first try with the Mustang and have ZERO issues taking off and landing with it....touch and go's....anything....no issues - from my very first attempt.

 

Something is wrong with the Dora landing algorithm. I don't know what it is, but something is a tad off.

 

Either way, I enjoy flying it.

[Chlebakus]

I think none of us have ever flown Dora, so we don't have any idea how it behaves. This simulation is not poor or bugged or whatever. Isn't it better idea to learn how to land Dora than saying it is overly difficult and blah blah? It is completely same as 3 point landing with Mustang with the difference that Dora really doesn't like RPM changes.

[Rabbit_]

I think none of us have ever flown Dora, so we don't have any idea how it behaves. This simulation is not poor or bugged or whatever. Isn't it better idea to learn how to land Dora than saying it is overly difficult and blah blah? It is completely same as 3 point landing with Mustang with the difference that Dora really doesn't like RPM changes.

 

True!

[Slap_Chop]

This is the same thing I am experiencing. I can get on the ground, that is not the issue.

 

I just took off for the first time in the Mustang last night. I actually started with the Dora. Anyway, I took off and landed on my first try with the Mustang and have ZERO issues taking off and landing with it....touch and go's....anything....no issues - from my very first attempt.

 

Something is wrong with the Dora landing algorithm. I don't know what it is, but something is a tad off.

 

Either way, I enjoy flying it.

 

 

 

 

This is the same thing I found. 1st off let the Dora hit the runway at a low angle of attack while dropping the throttle as you go but don't stall. Do not flare too hard or it wants to fly again.

 

 

 

When you're coming in think BRAKES BRAKES BRAKES. As soon as you touch down you need to be on the left and right brakes instantly. Throttle OFF and only after a few feet of that pull the stick back to lock the tail wheel.

 

 

It's pretty tricky for me without toe brakes but I use the two buttons on the front of my X55 throttle and that works ish.

 

 

If you want to see what it's like to have the sim do this for you. Set Auto Rudder on in Options and you will see this running off the runway go away on landings. Then replay your landing and watch from a chase view how the sim is working the rudder on landing.

 

 

I can land now after understanding what is happening when I hit the ground

and of course practice practice. I'm not a pilot but it does seem a little overdone ,the skidding, but the sim is just awsum. As said above unless you flew the real bird how would you know.

[xaoslaad]

I think none of us have ever flown Dora, so we don't have any idea how it behaves. This simulation is not poor or bugged or whatever. Isn't it better idea to learn how to land Dora than saying it is overly difficult and blah blah? It is completely same as 3 point landing with Mustang with the difference that Dora really doesn't like RPM changes.

 

If it really isn't bugged or badly modelled, then sure let's be quiet and learn. On the other hand I think what many of us find is that the Dora is literally the hardest plane in DCS to land, by a long shot. I used to think the Su-25T was hard. After some of the newer planes intro'd I now consider the Su-25T easy as pie. F-86F and MiG-21Bis are my new tough but doables. FW-190 still makes me miserable. And I personally think if it was as hard as it is in DCS there wouldn't have been many Dora's or Dora pilots left in short order.

 

They didn't have simulators and dual pit planes to learn on back then. Guy went up for his first takeoff, guy came down probably white knuckled and heart pounding for his landing. It had to be easy enough that even a relative beginner (and definitely a beginner to that plane) could make it down successfully, even on his first few attempts if they wanted to have any pilots left. Now I know that doesn't mean easy, but...

 

I forget what the number given on the vertical velocity indicator to make a successful landing in the manual and tutorials as it's been awhile since I tried, but I basically found it had to be less than half that and you need to stall it out onto the runway at that gentle decent to get success. That's all I could do in the end to get it to work without a giant bounce - it was very nerve racking, but worked for me. But it seems insane and wrong that that's the way they'd land.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

I've had a good look at all the replies before commenting. The thing is that you should be able to land the aircraft on the main wheels with the tail up. You shouldn't have to three point it. There seems to be quite a number of real life pilots here (me included) so I struggle with the fact that you can't two point this sucker no matter how smoothly you are on the controls and throttle over the threshold.

Without a doubt, take off is easy if you use constant rudder adjustments and your peripheral vision.

 

The problem with simulators is that you don't have the feedback in the rudders that it needs (and other inputs). Are there any force feedback rudder pedals out there?

 

DCS for me is about getting as close as you can to real life flying without the cost so when some people here say it's not quite right then I would agree. For those of you who don't have extensions to your joysticks, definitely look into it as it does change the feel and accuracy of your control.

 

 

with a bit of practice, two pointers are not much of a problem in the dora.

[Chlebakus]

...

And who there can be certain about badly modelled flight model? :lol:

Real pilots can feel the aircraft. We can't. We just rely on visual and instruments.

Is there really something difficult in pulling the stick long enough to make Dora gently "fall" on runway?

If there are people who thinks Su-25 is hard to land, then I give up any hopes given into any advices. LOL

[Boris]

I remember reading an anecdote that German pilots with insufficient training often crashed the Dora on landing.

I can't find the source though...

 

It may be hard to learn to land, but it isn't THAT hard to land. As long as you're at the right speed and attitude (it lands best on 3 wheels), it's a breeze.

[Rabbit_]

I remember reading an anecdote that German pilots with insufficient training often crashed the Dora on landing.

I can't find the source though...

 

It may be hard to learn to land, but it isn't THAT hard to land. As long as you're at the right speed and attitude (it lands best on 3 wheels), it's a breeze.

 

Exactly. And Germans had many casualties on Bf-109 landings as well. I really can't wait, what will people say about that narrow V-shaped landing gear of 109. :thumbup:

[Chlebakus]

I remember reading an anecdote that German pilots with insufficient training often crashed the Dora on landing.

I can't find the source though...

 

It may be hard to learn to land, but it isn't THAT hard to land. As long as you're at the right speed and attitude (it lands best on 3 wheels), it's a breeze.

And are there videos with succesfull landing? Yes.

Is it possible to land Dora? Yes.

Then it is lack of skill when it goes wrong all the time.

[Boris]

If there's still any doubt about the landing behaviour of the Fw-190, here's a short extract from "Wings of the Luftwaffe" by Cpt. Eric Brown, who tested 55 captured German aircraft during the war:

 

"The actual touch-down was a little tricky as the prefect three-point attitude was difficult to attain and anything less than perfect resulted in a reaction from the very non-resilient undercarriage and a decidedly bouncy arrival. If a three-pointer could be achieved, the landing run was short and the brakes could be applied harshly without fear of nosing over."

 

He was referring to the Fw-190A in the text, but I'm sure the behaviour of the Dora was similar and is reflected well in the DCS simulation I think.

[Suchacz]

Lol, you all suggest that if you cant land it for the first time, then it is buggy? Maybe somebody could find some bugs in your flying skills :D

 

I have some experince with flying the Pony, and after I bought Dora this weekend, I landed smoothly on the first time. It was a little bouncy, but safe one :smilewink:

Edited October 21, 2014 by Suchacz

[Rabbit_]

Lol, you all suggest that if you cant land it for the first time, then it is buggy? Maybe somebody could find some bugs in your flying skills :D

 

I have some experince with flying the Pony, and after I bought Dora this weekend, I landed smoothly on the first time. It was a little bouncy, but safe one :smilewink:

 

No dyk. Jsou to močky. :lol:

 

Something similar on my side. And I'm not some high skill WW2 planes pilot. I'm landing all planes the same way. :-D

[rrohde]

Learning how to land the Dora also taught me how to land the Mustang. Now, I cannot wait to try the 109. :)

[xaoslaad]

And who there can be certain about badly modelled flight model? :lol:

Real pilots can feel the aircraft. We can't. We just rely on visual and instruments.

Is there really something difficult in pulling the stick long enough to make Dora gently "fall" on runway?

If there are people who thinks Su-25 is hard to land, then I give up any hopes given into any advices. LOL

You may be the epitomy of awesome, but some people do have a hard time landing other aircraft besides the FW-190. If there are real pilots (granted not of the Dora) saying it is insanely difficult that throws some caution flags to me. Sure its not the end of the argument, which is why I prefaced my whole comment with 'If'. Because Im certainly not the one to say. I'd even be fine if someone in ED in the know said it's pretty accurate.

[Buzpilot]

Is it possible the hard runway, instead of softer grassy airfields have some say in this problem?

[Yo-Yo]

You may be the epitomy of awesome, but some people do have a hard time landing other aircraft besides the FW-190. If there are real pilots (granted not of the Dora) saying it is insanely difficult that throws some caution flags to me. Sure its not the end of the argument, which is why I prefaced my whole comment with 'If'. Because Im certainly not the one to say. I'd even be fine if someone in ED in the know said it's pretty accurate.

 

MACADEMIC (a real pilot with experience in jet and props including taildraggers) showed that it's not hard to TO and land the Dora even using Sony Playstation joystics.

The problem that encounter some real pilots is that they use their body acceleration sensors as a main flight instrument. Many of pilots use visual perception and gauges more than acceleration feeling or along with it. The second group is more successful in sims even they try it for the first time in the life.

 

Performing DCS for the very different audience of real helo and fixed wing aircraft we discovered this phenomena and the more real is the simulation the more is this separation.

[Rabbit_]

MACADEMIC (a real pilot with experience in jet and props including taildraggers) showed that it's not hard to TO and land the Dora even using Sony Playstation joystics.

The problem that encounter some real pilots is that they use their body acceleration sensors as a main flight instrument. Many of pilots use visual perception and gauges more than acceleration feeling or along with it. The second group is more successful in sims even they try it for the first time in the life.

 

Performing DCS for the very different audience of real helo and fixed wing aircraft we discovered this phenomena and the more real is the simulation the more is this separation.

 

That´s right. I can land this for the second time I fly it, but other simmers can maintain God-like hover with UH-1. Everyone´s skill is different with different approach.

I don´t have problem with people, who are struggling to land it. I have problem with people, who blame some sort of mysterious bug in DCS, which prevents them from landing. DCS isn´t perfect, but developers do sh1tloads of testing before releasing modules and I would be very surprised, if they would release it, knowing, there is some major issue with landing physics or something.