How did you learn to dogfight?

[WRAITH]

I'm incredible bad at dogfighting in DCS.

 

But it's true what you said:

 

Originally Posted by WRAITH

There is a training gap that is heavily missing here and DCS should consider developing a better "A.i Cadet Training Program" Module .............

 

I wish there were some way (at least I do not know any) to create a mission where some AI pilots will do a barrel roll or other flight manouvers at a specific time. This may even great for aerobatics exercises as well.

 

Hi, Yes, I strongly believe an "A.i Cadet Instructor Pilot Program" should be taken seriously. I was thinking if its even worth me opening up a Thread and posting the proposal here for DCS Devs the one I posted over at FFOSP.

 

But I dont know if people are interested or even bothered.

 

People just get into weapons and blow stuff up but dont know a darn thing about aviation or instrument rating. FSX has one its not to bad. yeah DCS titles have also but very generic basic overview of a instructor tutorial coach program.

 

Whats needed is an in-depth Instructor taking you through all the elements and fundamentals of an air craft and flight training.

 

I stress Not an arcade type feature but a serious "A.i Instructor Pilot" in Single Player this would make better pilots passing A.i qualification and rating programs and make it easier for SQDRN taking you through assessments until your ranked as a Air Combat Commissioned Pilot.

 

I hook up with gents every now and then over LANS and invite people I get bogged down with questions opening up manuals and pdf's just not practical and a bummer when you want time to fly.

 

But get a copy of Allied Force Falcon 4.0 here ........... http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Falcon-4-0-Allied-Force-PC-CD-NEW-SEALED-/121130848812

 

AF-F4 has good Dog Fight training modules using an ACMI tool mentioned in thread you will learn as you practice.

 

Watch Janes USAF has a good training also................

 

 

Still missing the mark a bit but not bad. If you can get that running not bad!

 

Well here is link proposal anyway................... http://freefalcon.org/topic/8449490/1/

 

With Flight sims theres heaps to learn again check the link in my signature below for study material.

 

Have fun!

 

Cheers,

 

:beer:

[BitMaster]

Many good suggestions have been made and more than one way works to get a good dogfighter.

 

I may suggest the type of AC to use. If you opt for an Afterburner equipped 1:1 weight/thrust ratio fighter you will likely rely on Afterburner-energy only to fight your way through. Well nothing against that if 2 F15's have an argue, or any other Jet combo with reheat and LOTS of thrust.

It makes life easier BUT you will also kinda spoil your flight style.

 

It is a TOTALLY different game if you have to HOUSEHOLD your energy, be it kinetic or potential ( IAS and Altitude that is ) cause you sit in a Dora or Pony with a thrust:weight ratio of maybe 0.4

if you are lucky. You have to pre-think what you do and preserve your energy at all times or you will be a sitting duck in the air. A jet can reheat away and up at the same time, the P-51 can only dive out steep and pray.

 

 

My suggestion:

If you aim for a good style, start with a Propeller driven AC like the P-51 or Fw-190. It is harder, YES AGREED, but if you master this it will be very easy to do the same with more energy at hand.

Whereas if you build up a style that solely relies on pure brutal reheat and high AoA you "may" survive a Jet Furball if lucky but you won't even survie 1 Minute in a P-51 with this tactic if you then ever plan to change to prop driven AC. They will shoot you out off the sky while you wonder "why is this damn beast so slow, sluggish and whatnot else"....

 

Golden Rule:

There is NO GOLDEN MOVE if you have somebody at your SIX.

The error has been made before and the Six o`clock position is the outcome.

All you can do is fight for time, time for your adversary to make a mistake that you can use to escape the 6 o'clock trap.

 

Fly fly fly and talk to guys who shot you down and ask them what you did wrong when.

 

I flew Total Air War a lot online and a friend of mine shot me down like shooting at sitting ducks.

I then asked him, Hengist, what the F* I always do wrong. He then explained me what and how easy it was to use it against me. He won 100 out of 100 dogfights and I think he still would beat my behind with ease. Some just have it naturally, some have to work hard to get it and some will never get it. Those fly Helicopters..... I love the Ka HAHAHA

 

 

Bit

[NeilWillis]

Hi, Yes, I strongly believe an "A.i Cadet Instructor Pilot Program" should be taken seriously. I was thinking if its even worth me opening up a Thread and posting the proposal here for DCS Devs the one I posted over at FFOSP.

 

But I dont know if people are interested or even bothered.

 

People just get into weapons and blow stuff up but dont know a darn thing about aviation or instrument rating. FSX has one its not to bad. yeah DCS titles have also but very generic basic overview of a instructor tutorial coach program.

 

Whats needed is an in-depth Instructor taking you through all the elements and fundamentals of an air craft and flight training.

 

I stress Not an arcade type feature but a serious "A.i Instructor Pilot" in Single Player this would make better pilots passing A.i qualification and rating programs and make it easier for SQDRN taking you through assessments until your ranked as a Air Combat Commissioned Pilot.

 

I hook up with gents every now and then over LANS and invite people I get bogged down with questions opening up manuals and pdf's just not practical and a bummer when you want time to fly.

 

But get a copy of Allied Force Falcon 4.0 here ........... http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Falcon-4-0-Allied-Force-PC-CD-NEW-SEALED-/121130848812

 

AF-F4 has good Dog Fight training modules using an ACMI tool mentioned in thread you will learn as you practice.

 

Watch Janes USAF has a good training also................

 

 

Still missing the mark a bit but not bad. If you can get that running not bad!

 

Well here is link proposal anyway................... http://freefalcon.org/topic/8449490/1/

 

With Flight sims theres heaps to learn again check the link in my signature below for study material.

 

Have fun!

 

Cheers,

 

:beer:

 

Very valid comments Wraith. I would strongly recommend you join a virtual squadron, a number of them offer flight training sorties, and if you ask for help, you'll get a sortie tailored exactly to your needs.

 

Have you seen the Maple Flag series of training and check ride missions? Not specifically aimed at ACM, but an excellent way to brush up on all your flying and fighting skills.

[WRAITH]

Very valid comments Wraith. I would strongly recommend you join a virtual squadron, a number of them offer flight training sorties, and if you ask for help, you'll get a sortie tailored exactly to your needs.

 

Have you seen the Maple Flag series of training and check ride missions? Not specifically aimed at ACM, but an excellent way to brush up on all your flying and fighting skills.

 

 

Check Sig :smilewink: :thumbup: !

[NeilWillis]

Doh! :music_whistling:

[WildBillKelsoe]

The best way to learn A2A is to join an online squadron. With time, you become better. But with the advent of aircrafts available and released, it is better to focus on just one, and stick with it.

 

For instance, I tried the P-51 for 2 years since first beta. Got discouraged by the godly AI, but found a crack in their logic. The more you perform with an aircraft the better you become.

 

I'm picking the Mig-21 as my A2A platform because I like how my ass will get kicked as a newbie, but with time, fighting, practice, I'll get better.

[WRAITH]

DCS Cadet Instructor Pilot Module

 

The best way to learn A2A is to join an online squadron. With time, you become better. But with the advent of aircrafts available and released, it is better to focus on just one, and stick with it.

 

For instance, I tried the P-51 for 2 years since first beta. Got discouraged by the godly AI, but found a crack in their logic. The more you perform with an aircraft the better you become.

 

Hi bud, Its seems its been done like this for awhile but I stick to what I believe on principle. Honestly from an A.i Program point of view and for new people coming into flight sims, i.e friends family it would be far better to have an "A.i Cadet Instructor Pilot" as described in this thread - http://freefalcon.org/topic/8449490/1/

 

For many reasons in fact some SQDRNS have made mods to do this online for rear cockpit IP-RIO-WSO pilots stuff.

 

It is important and very much needed ............... http://www.mediafire.com/watch/xbstn0ftqrzcezl/F-16_DJ_52s.mp4

 

Hopefully in future development DCS Devs or 3rd party will consider this as a serious module for new cadet from zero knowledge and further advanced combat training needs.

 

Also consider how many posts in Sim Forums and SQDRN Forums asking the same questions over and over again. I also support an in-depth study manual that will provide practical and theory study from Cadet to full commissioned Vpilot training.

 

Topics ranging from Ramp Starts, Taxing, Basic Flight, Air Craft Handling, Safety Procedures, ATC, WAR Theory, BVR, WVR, ACM and BFM/Dogfighting or A-A & A-G Weapons, Avionics, Carrier Ops, Tactics and War Strategies you name it. A deep comprehensive manual covering all that is in Military / ADF around the world. I mean heaps of info just on Wikipedia alone.

 

This would be a treat for all involved, trust me! There was a DCS manual binder sold in past.............. https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-YC8tVl2goiY/T0qNVSPdZvI/AAAAAAAAACo/WIUJReKC9fg/s1055/IMG_20120226_135738.jpg

 

Maybe time to create and sell another Binder manual with an A.i Cadet Instructor Module!

 

Heck, even if they were released as modules to buy say at $40.00 as Cadet Instructor Modules for various Air Craft Training Aids especially for an extensive Air Craft List like this................. http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2122426&postcount=1 ............ heaps of people would buy them and it would also increase sales amongst younger crowds who are baffled by the learning curve of flight sims!

 

You all know it, looking at the bigger picture! :smilewink: :thumbup:

 

The very fact that this Thread is titled ............"How did you learn to dogfight"......... and could be said for many other requirements or category of training need in regards to flight sim aviation should be either a concern to future development or a gap addressed for potential growth. As there is simply a huge learning curve and many areas to master!

 

Question?

 

How many people know what is a VSI instrument and How to use it?

 

Watch................

 

Lots to think about, I certainly dont have 8hrs of every night to lecture newbies on aviation fundamentals!

 

Cheers,

 

:beer:

Edited August 26, 2014 by WRAITH

[Vedexent]

The best way to learn A2A is to join an online squadron. With time, you become better. But with the advent of aircrafts available and released, it is better to focus on just one, and stick with it.

 

For instance, I tried the P-51 for 2 years since first beta. Got discouraged by the godly AI, but found a crack in their logic. The more you perform with an aircraft the better you become.

 

I'm picking the Mig-21 as my A2A platform because I like how my ass will get kicked as a newbie, but with time, fighting, practice, I'll get better.

 

So - I know I'm absolutely getting the MiG-21: I love the Russian design approach, and I love complex system modelling.

 

Do you think this is a viable plane to learn dogfighting for the first time?

 

I don't care if I have to put in extra time or effort - just whether or not learning on this particular plane will make dogfighting in other platforms harder to pick up.

[WRAITH]

DCS HAWK Cadet Trainer Jet

 

So - I know I'm absolutely getting the MiG-21: I love the Russian design approach, and I love complex system modelling.

 

Do you think this is a viable plane to learn dogfighting for the first time?

 

I don't care if I have to put in extra time or effort - just whether or not learning on this particular plane will make dogfighting in other platforms harder to pick up.

 

Hi Vedexent,

 

You know as another option if you really want to take flying as realistic as possible you can buy the soon release HAWK Cadet Trainer for A-A and A-G training!

 

I was reading this earlier today......... http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2155948&postcount=307

 

 

Its a great choice entirely up to you just thought to let you know in case you missed the news of soon release!

 

I will be getting it! Looks nice! :smilewink::thumbup:

 

Cheers,

 

:beer:

Edited August 26, 2014 by WRAITH

[Vedexent]

I know about the Hawk, and I'm absolutely looking forward to flying it.

 

However, for this purpose, isn't she releasing with the AFM at first, and the PFM/EFM isn't coming out until later?

[cichlidfan]

I know about the Hawk, and I'm absolutely looking forward to flying it.

 

However, for this purpose, isn't she releasing with the AFM at first, and the PFM/EFM isn't coming out until later?

 

SFM at first.

[Vedexent]

SFM at first.

 

Yeah ... so learning to dogfight for the first time with her really isn't a good option until the flight model gets upgraded - although I'll pick the Hawk up regardless.

[WildBillKelsoe]

Hi bud, Its seems its been done like this for awhile but I stick to what I believe on principle. Honestly from an A.i Program point of view and for new people coming into flight sims, i.e friends family it would be far better to have an "A.i Cadet Instructor Pilot" as described in this thread - http://freefalcon.org/topic/8449490/1/

 

That is actually a good idea. But remember you are fighting against humans as well. A.i (as you constantly refer to it -) I believe is good for beginners to the niche. But soon you end up doing all the moves over and over.... Humans are unpredictable and challenging, even more challenging than A.i

 

So - I know I'm absolutely getting the MiG-21: I love the Russian design approach, and I love complex system modelling.

 

Do you think this is a viable plane to learn dogfighting for the first time?

 

I don't care if I have to put in extra time or effort - just whether or not learning on this particular plane will make dogfighting in other platforms harder to pick up.

 

Its not a question of harder or easier. Its a question of picking up a dedicated A2A plane, mastering it, fighting, then scoring kills. You can try the 27 or the 15 but since the core context of this site is hi-fi modules, that was my point.

 

But just don't select the hog or the rook and expect to master a2a. You need a fast mover.

 

Hi Vedexent,

 

You know as another option if you really want to take flying as realistic as possible you can buy the soon release HAWK Cadet Trainer for A-A and A-G training!

 

Its also on my purchase list, but I want a true 2 seater with a human driving and me watching. This is augmenting the experience. I don't know if she'll have a 2 slot player per plane (this is currently being developed or researched) even though examples like Huey have promised to have so, we just scratched the surface... barely..

[Zooker]

I don't see anything wrong with learning in the Sabre. The systems are a small portion of learning how to dogfight. Right now you need to learn to get behind and stay behind another aircraft. I'd be willing to fly with you regularly, I won't make any claims to being an ace, but it makes it easier to learn competing against a human opponent.

 

You never can learn enough about dog fighting, the moment you think you know it all, there is someone better that will wipe the floor with you.

 

This is a great thread with a lot of good information.

[ZaltysZ]

Do you think this is a viable plane to learn dogfighting for the first time?

 

Few years ago, we used particular setup in IL2 1946 for training of novice pilots. They had to fly BF109 F4 (100% fuel) and fight against 4 ACE AI in I-16 Type 24 starting at co-alt. This is probably the best way to start learning energy fighting without other humans involved. BF109 is fast, climbs better at higher speeds, and I-16 is slow, but super agile aircraft which can't be outclimbed at low speeds and carries very deadly weaponry. This trains for situational awareness, energy management, conversion, effective 3D maneuvering and deflection shooting.

[WRAITH]

DCS Cadet Instructor Pilot Module

 

Hi gents,

 

What I'm trying to explain in a sense because in a Forum what people read or write means different things to others. Is more of the actual real life Training Pipeline experience in learning as a pilot in the USAF Cadet in Flight Training Program.

 

For Example -

 

 

OR

 

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r543/picturebucket7/FFOSP/How-to-become-a-fighter-pilot-Infographic_zps58102d5d.jpeg

 

More info here:-

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_Cadet_Training_Program_%28USAAF%29

 

http://www.flyfighterjet.com/jetflights/how-to-become-a-fighter-pilot-in-the-usa.html

 

Start learning performance turns, performing the Immelman etc all from just reading basic cockpit instrumentation and S.A.

 

Learning basic flight principles that will help you later as a VCombat Pilot.

 

To transition straight onto a fighter Air Craft without knowing basic instruments is just like playing HAWX if you can appreciate what I'm say.

 

So hopping into a prop plane first mastering that then a trainer jet learning basic combat techniques then thats the correct learning path.

 

Also A.i can be taught maths, physics and geometry so on that will make for a good A.i Instructor Pilot........... its one of the reasons I created this thread .......... http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=126749

 

It was to probe more discussion in the A.i department acknowledging that this is a video game simulator category. In a game like DCS once again with smart programming using algorithms for advanced A.i.

 

So much can be added in the A.i Single Player.

 

I also privately discussed this with a Mod ED Tester first he mentioned yes there is more planned for this area much later not now he also mentioned he has many things he wishes in this area as well, anyway besides the point.

 

Yes, You also can add A.i to move from routines function and throw in some irregularities like ditching the air craft or perform an instant manuever to get you to think and apply tactics. Again its just a training tool of course the next step in training and development would be Multi-player.

 

Now on this point..........

 

I know about the Hawk, and I'm absolutely looking forward to flying it.

 

However, for this purpose, isn't she releasing with the AFM at first, and the PFM/EFM isn't coming out until later?

 

In my honest opinion that suxs why even bother with a SFM.

 

I have read the FM Terms of use thread but not really worth all the work and resources to have types of FM behavior. In my view all Air Craft should have a PFM with tools like http://jsbsim.sourceforge.net/ ......... watch.....

 

I just dont see the need for various types of flight models when you can develop each specific air craft with the right behavior or feel for the individual air craft.

 

Be it a light fighter or bomber or even prop and simulate the characteristics like weight and thrust ratio based on air frame dynamic drag coe........ so on.

 

From a proper software tool that provides the general detail to build a specific FM for a air craft!

 

But thats for another thread!

 

Well thats it from me!

 

Cheers,

 

:beer:

Edited August 26, 2014 by WRAITH

[SUBS17]

So - I know I'm absolutely getting the MiG-21: I love the Russian design approach, and I love complex system modelling.

 

Do you think this is a viable plane to learn dogfighting for the first time?

 

I don't care if I have to put in extra time or effort - just whether or not learning on this particular plane will make dogfighting in other platforms harder to pick up.

 

Mig21 would be a bad choice because the view is quite limited and the aircraft has a small fuel tank so dogfighting training time is quite limited. Try the SU27 because even with its SFM it still has plenty of power and fuel.:thumbup:

 

Maybe the first stage of the dogfight is the best place to start the MERGE.

 

So setup a 1 vs 1 guns only SU27 vs F-15 approaching head on.

 

From a head on pass the first move can be Lead turn and with the Lead turn the options at the pass are horizontal and vertical. If you practice both you can then work out which move is best for certain situations. eg approaching at high speed vertical might be the ideal move as it bleeds speed to reach the corner speed.

 

 

The AI fast jets will try in some cases to turn horizontally and that is easier to defeat as they are quite predictable. If you pull a lead turn just remember that turning to early will result in the bad guy being on your 6 straight away, executing the turn to late and he might have already turned onto your 6.:joystick:

[flare2000x]

http://www.amazon.com/In-Pursuit-Pilots-Online-Combat/dp/9197607703

 

The best book to learn all the things you need to know about combat, from BFM, to ACM, to formation and mission tactics.

 

free .pfd here: http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/lento_ohjeet/inpursuit/inpursuit.pdf

[ZQuickSilverZ]

With the Sabre, I'm taking my first stab - no pun intended -

 

Oh, I think you totally intended it. :music_whistling:

[Soulres]

Old war Movies/Documentries and Fighter Ace 3.5

[Lizzard]

I never learned it..I am surely the shittiest Dogfighter out there:joystick:

[20thBG_Blackwolf]

I flew a few times in the old warbirds 2.77 I sucked bad. So I joined up with a squad they put me as a wing man and I learned the ropes from the other guys. I still suck at it but at least now I have a chance to live and win.

Joining a squad was the best way for me to learn. Some can read it in a book and do it. I'm more a hands on OJT type of guy.

[T_A]

i don't play the DCS warbirds ( i did buy the Mustang and Dora ) but flying the F-86 i realized i suck bad at dog fighting , the reason i never noticed it was due to the overpowered modern fighters that allow you to pull stuff that on older planes would stall and go out of control

(and not to mentions that most of them are SFM)

 

anyway , i fly a simple F-86 vs Mig-15 mission alot to better learn to control the throttle and maintain energy, and of course learn to shoot the cannon.

[Aeons]

 

I'm curious how the hell people learn this stuff?

 

Airforce

[Svend_Dellepude]

My understanding was that the Su-27 now has the Advanced Flight Model - is this not the case?

 

------

 

EDIT:

 

OK - did some digging, and apparently Su-27 has Advanced Flight model, but not the Professional flight model that the F-15 now does.

 

In fact, there appear to be no Russian fighters with PFM - although I believe the MiG-21 will be the first.

 

Damn. I'm not sure that the MiG-21bis, with it's delta wing and it's limited angle-of-attack is a good "first time dogfighter".

 

MiG-29's, SU-27 and 33 are SFM (simple flight model).

AFM is on it's way for the 27 though.