TRACK IR IS Outdated

[Chivas]

First off I have used MS Game Commander voice recognition software and you are right, it does work great, even with my deep southern voice. That is a solution we can use NOW. No need to wait for the tech it is already here.

 

Second I get the general concept of a VR pasthrough (something that lets you momentarily see into the real world) but can you go a bit into the mechanics of how that would work.

 

I've also used VAC software for years, and it worked amazingly well.

 

Regarding passthru.... Oculus Rift is well aware of the issue of seeing the keyboard etc etc. Some head mounted displays companies have used a physical shutter in the headset, others are using passthru cameras to allow outside views. Oculus is probably looking at a number of different solutions, but no word yet on what solutions they might have come up with yet.

 

Personally I probably won't use any of these solutions, as it will likely break "presence". That and the fact I can type and use my complex Hotas without having to look.

[Chivas]

I am a bit confused. I thought that the screen actually extended outside of the users peripheral vision. Is this not so. I am sure I read that.

 

The Oculus prototypes have a FOV around 100, which is much smaller than most people Field of Vision. 98abaile, is worried about people having issues with the displays screen door effect, where you can see pixels, and black dots inbetween the pixels, which is quite pronounced in the DK1, and DK2 prototypes. Most of the people testing the latest Cresent Bay prototype say that the screen door effect has been greatly reduced, and the developers are saying it will be even less of an issue with a much improved consumer version.

[98abaile]

I am a bit confused. I thought that the screen actually extended outside of the users peripheral vision. Is this not so. I am sure I read that.

It doesn't unfortunately, you can still see the edges in you peripheral vision. Current FOV is about 100°. More importantly though, because of the way the lenses work, the pixels around the centre of your view become stretched, giving the effect of looking at something through a screen door.

 

Something similar to this:

 

This is an old mock up of the effect for the DK1 which has a lower resolution than the DK2, but the effect is apparently still there at the current higher resolution. People will no doubt complain about the effect if they release at 1080p, but if they release at a higher resolution people will no doubt complain about the price.

[Arcto10]

I agree here that Track IR needs to be updated hardware wise. Especially the build quality. My TrackClip pro broke recently and I cannot justify the price of a new one to myself :(

[ZQuickSilverZ]

How would that be possible with a flat screen of small enough size to attach to your face?

 

Not that hard when it is so close to your face. Also not hard if the screens are angled.

[ZQuickSilverZ]

I've also used VAC software for years, and it worked amazingly well.

 

Regarding passthru.... Oculus Rift is well aware of the issue of seeing the keyboard etc etc. Some head mounted displays companies have used a physical shutter in the headset, others are using passthru cameras to allow outside views. Oculus is probably looking at a number of different solutions, but no word yet on what solutions they might have come up with yet.

 

Personally I probably won't use any of these solutions, as it will likely break "presence". That and the fact I can type and use my complex Hotas without having to look.

 

So you are saying that the camera solution would be something similar to picture in picture? That actually might work.

[Chivas]

So you are saying that the camera solution would be something similar to picture in picture? That actually might work.

 

Yes, but I wonder how well, if the camera doesn't correlate accurately with where we feel our hands are. I'm sure there will be a solution, but probably not an easy one to resolve.

 

I think they are probably working on solutions that can be done by feel, and won't break the "presence" they are working so hard to achieve. It shouldn't be that much of a problem for serious flight simmers, as we already have complex systems that we can easily learn to use by feel, that have natural tactile/haptic feedback, thats very difficult to achieve with other methods.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Chivas

[galevsky06]

OR should hopefully be perfect with clickable cockpits and Warthog HOTAS.

I'm really excited about it, same feeling I had waiting for my TIR 1 to arrive.

How ? Can you see outside without breaking the immersion ?

 

You need something to switch off the in-game display to let you find the real button to press through the device !?!! Tell me....

 

The single other way I see is to have your arms modelled in-game, sensors on gloves, and display virtual hands.... but you have to build up your cockpit to have the real button location matching the one in-game. Well, let's say impossible :(

 

What about keyboard usage ? Mouse ?

Edited October 2, 2014 by galevsky06

[wormeaten]

The future of VR or immersion in game is great.

 

TrackIR is VR as well only at least workink just part of it but the point here TrackIR is outdated and way much expencive.

 

Just compare the prices and chsck what you got for the price.

 

TrackIR + clip = is 176$

 

for less money and everything what TrackIR could doo you can buy

PS3 Eye + Delan clip = 48$

 

So you could buy everything you need without DIY and save 128$ and you will newer notice difference in use.

 

If we compare TrackIR with Oculus Rift in what you can get and the price TrackIR is again overrated. It is just half of the price of 350$ how much Oculus is but can't give you 20% of the immersion level Oculus already provide and remember it is WiP and improving performance day by day and TrackIR is not made single progress in this 5 years.

Yea someone will say it is compare 4 and 5. Yes true but that is progress of third part made just hardware they use. It is even worse and prove Natural point didn't do nothing by it self.

 

I'm not talking now is it good hardware or not or on its performances my point and fact is TrackIR is overrated and overpriced piece of old hardware who should in this 5 years drop the price and they didn't at all. Today TrackIR not worth more than 50 - 60$ maximum so im my eyes this fact made Naturalpoint as one company who just ripping us off.

 

Personally I don't understand such policy. In my opinion with price of 50 - 60$ I doubt it someone will doing experiments with third part hardware when there is no economical reason for it. On side with individuals who just interested in DiY, I'm talking on majority like my self. I'm living in EU and price is here much more epencive so here is above 200$ and I got my alternative solution for less than 25$ with minimum of DIY or for 50$ without any DIY needed.

 

If I want to spend 175$ than its much better to save twice and get Oculus Rift.

 

This days is started another VR project called Totem.

So check it out and compare with Oculus. They have some interesting advantages and solutions like motion tracking from first person build in cameras instead of IR points.

 

Future is bright and TrackIR miss its opportunity and is already dying just because of human greed.

[Alicatt]

It doesn't unfortunately, you can still see the edges in you peripheral vision. Current FOV is about 100°. More importantly though, because of the way the lenses work, the pixels around the centre of your view become stretched, giving the effect of looking at something through a screen door.

 

Something similar to this:

<snip>

 

This is an old mock up of the effect for the DK1 which has a lower resolution than the DK2, but the effect is apparently still there at the current higher resolution. People will no doubt complain about the effect if they release at 1080p, but if they release at a higher resolution people will no doubt complain about the price.

It was images like that, that put me off getting a projector in 1998 until we got into 1080p, even now if I stand beside my screen I can see the individual pixels, but from the seating position it looks great.

 

I have tried a VR headset a few years ago, it was displaying Microsoft's Flight Sim and it made me feel quite bad, I'm wondering how the Rift would affect me esp. as my eyes are not in alignment.

[galevsky06]

Yeah mouse.

 

Only thing that might catch me out is the comm menu

LOL, because you are either flying FC3 only with all commands mapped on HOTAS, or flying in Arcade mode..... Go with all click-able cockpits, and you have to choose your method:

 

 

• mouse to click on switches
  
• dozen of keyboard shortcuts to learn
  
• real cockpit
  

In all cases, you don't make your ramp start because you are blind and you cannot switch on electrical power.

[DayGlow]

I am a bit confused. I thought that the screen actually extended outside of the users peripheral vision. Is this not so. I am sure I read that.

 

the screen door effect is the seeing the black grid around each pixel as you are so close to the screen.

[galevsky06]

Ok, I think you forget something....

 

I was not talking about F-10 Com menu to call Ground Electric Power Assistance, but all the knobs inside the cockpit:

 

 

How do you do your ramp start ? How do you use your MFDs ? You take the mouse, or press keyboard short-cuts, or press physical knobs of your real cockpit.

 

Your hands have to leave the HOTAS to go somewhere around you, to reach whatever chosen device, but you have to do it when blind. So, it is not convenient at all. Even more when you are in the battle, with need to change some weapon settings quickly to continue your strike.

 

Don't I understand something ?

Edited October 4, 2014 by galevsky06

[mipko]

^ +1 that's the point

[ZQuickSilverZ]

http://www.fatshark.com/product/1748.html

 

Interesting.

[galevsky06]

Well, will see with full-immersive googles. I don't have a look specifically to my mouse, but it is so easy: I have eyes opened, the mouse is on the field of vision, with other parts as references like my screen... with eyes closed, I fail to put my hand directly on the mouse when going back and forth, with other situational information into my eyes, could be even worse...

 

OR is awesome when you have a single stick in your hand that you don't leave, but with many..... waiting for a fix :joystick:

 

 

And now: imagine life for hardcore-gamers that use that (e.g. my Squad lead):

 

Picture from Tacnoworld

 

They will need a dog..... :doh:

That is why I said that OR is not -for sure- the best way to go ahead in advanced simulation until some issues become solved.

Edited October 4, 2014 by galevsky06

[DayGlow]

Ok, I think you forget something....

 

I was not talking about F-10 Com menu to call Ground Electric Power Assistance, but all the knobs inside the cockpit:

 

 

How do you do your ramp start ? How do you use your MFDs ? You take the mouse, or press keyboard short-cuts, or press physical knobs of your real cockpit.

 

Your hands have to leave the HOTAS to go somewhere around you, to reach whatever chosen device, but you have to do it when blind. So, it is not convenient at all. Even more when you are in the battle, with need to change some weapon settings quickly to continue your strike.

 

Don't I understand something ?

 

You don't know where your mouse is on your desk? When you reach from your HOTAS for the mouse you have to look down?

[Chivas]

Simmers with cockpits like that obviously are looking for realism. I know WW2 pilots were trained to be able to access all their switches blindfolded, but not sure about modern jets.

[Mr_Burns]

Simmers with cockpits like that obviously are looking for realism. I know WW2 pilots were trained to be able to access all their switches blindfolded, but not sure about modern jets.

 

I can only Speak for the UK Typhoon program. Part of the training aids which are delivered with the aircraft are desk top cardboard mock ups and the pilots spend hours sitting at them performing sequences and familiarisation.

 

I used to walk past the training room when it was based at Warton and you would see the RAF pilots in there. I would imagine they could absolutely touch any button blind.

 

However, if they were blinded and there was no way to see again they only need to find eject!

[Fri13]

Just got TrackIR 5 and ordered TrackClip pro to be delivered later.

 

I used Freetrack with own custom three IR LED clip build with sample. Using normal narrow field of view (28°) IR webcam.

 

Then I upgraded webcam to Logitech one with 52° field of view.

Then I found TrackFaceNoIR (or what was its real name) and used it with webcam only.

 

Got bored to accuracy and lag. Very fine system for fighter dog fights or ground attack to look around to keep situational awareness. But still too laggy (responds 10-15 frames later) and inaccurate for HMS use or to track target visually.

 

And eye classes are not so great with face recognition as they easily fool system.

 

After simulating Rift, I came to conclusion that I would like them very much for immersion, and the 100° field of view is more than 28" display gives now. But once you enter 4k resolution, you can't go back to FullHD or even 2k.

 

Conclusion was that wearing eye classes with rift is impossible. Long periods wearing such device will leave its mark to neck pain.

Same thing is to eye stress that such device causes.

 

55" 4k televisions don't cost much anymore, around 1000€ anymore. And that is immersive enough to have it from 1m at front of you.

 

The benefits is, you don't need simulator pit as 3D model is it with rift.

Controlling switches etc isn't a problem with mouse and you can find mouse anyways.

 

The trackIr has nothing to worry. It has its benefits like possibility see around when needed (own phone etc) and helps to relax eyes in long period flights simply allowing to look to infinity.

Those who can't handle 50+ buttons and functions binded to HOTAS, can use keyboard.

 

But sure the immersion is great but unless they manage to get 2k for both eyes, it will be bad.

 

The speed and accuracy TrackIR 5 offers is great. It does have problems in sunlight hitting behind user or on the device itself, but that is question how to dim room.

 

It is painless to get set up for use. But does sometimes require zeroing that is behind a single HOTAS button.

 

I made decision between TrackIR and Rift and ended up with TrackIR. When I can now easily spot a ground unit from 20km range at ground and identify it from 10km range most likely, I don't need Rift immersion as much I need 4k.

[Abburo]

Just got TrackIR 5 [...]

 

I subscribe to your entire statements. People however have subjective opinions. OR induced fatigue is a fact, no matter anybody is saying. As any new gadget, first contacts are made under increased testosterone levels :), but in time the drawbacks will become obvious.

What I am trying to say is that OR is ok, but with limited usages.

 

TIR is bug free, mature and lag free also. I am using it with those reflective dots and have no issue with its precision or wires. I even dare to say that TIR head movement is more real than OR until certain points just because your ball eye have a movement which make your head to not turn 90 degree but only 45 to fully see what's on your side.

[Pikey]

To be fair, Rift isn't public ready yet, but at the start this thread was about TIR only being dead which it's clearly not, just left in limbo with no updates.

 

The Rift vs TIR debate though is very interesting, as no doubt many people are watching.

 

Perhaps we should bring in multiple screens, semi projection domes, 360 degree domes, curved screens, home pits, etc into the conversation? It seems nothing really fits our needs.

[Fri13]

I subscribe to your entire statements. People however have subjective opinions. OR induced fatigue is a fact, no matter anybody is saying. As any new gadget, first contacts are made under increased testosterone levels :), but in time the drawbacks will become obvious.

What I am trying to say is that OR is ok, but with limited usages.

 

TIR is bug free, mature and lag free also. I am using it with those reflective dots and have no issue with its precision or wires. I even dare to say that TIR head movement is more real than OR until certain points just because your ball eye have a movement which make your head to not turn 90 degree but only 45 to fully see what's on your side.

Sure we do have own opinions based experience or knowledge.

 

I have over year experience from alternatives and now only a week from "the real deal". I considered building a inertial tracker but I *know* they are not even close to be reliable as optical ones. That by other engineering experience from other work. We would need to get very expensive sensors to get trustworthy sensors and to that money TrackIR 5 is almost free.

 

One first things I am planning to mod is to make the TrackClip Pro running from battery. First although I am going to joint it to headset cable for experience gaining.

 

Sure the inertial trackers have benefits like not space positioning that optical systems has, but it is at best a secondary guiding sensor when optical tracking requires new data. This example when TrackIR is located different height from trackclip and user needs to change yaw and then roll. In that case inertial sensor can follow movement correctly.

[Fri13]

To be fair, Rift isn't public ready yet, but at the start this thread was about TIR only being dead which it's clearly not, just left in limbo with no updates.

 

The Rift vs TIR debate though is very interesting, as no doubt many people are watching.

 

Perhaps we should bring in multiple screens, semi projection domes, 360 degree domes, curved screens, home pits, etc into the conversation? It seems nothing really fits our needs.

For me the dream would be a half-dome projected with a 3840*2160 resolution and then add a TrackIR there. The dome should be relatively close to me, like 70cm.

 

I don't get kicks from flipping switches or dialing knobs in real looking panels etc. Or having a real cockpit or anything like that.

I do like the real procedure but only sometimes. That's why these discussions get close to "Sim or Game" for reality etc.

 

Sure the immersion is important for many, many wants just to fly and blow things up, some wants just to fly and someone wants to know how to do cold start or operate plane in case of emergency etc.

 

I once did three display setup for Ka-50 and I liked how Shkval and ABRIS were on own displays. But when I didn't get any other benefits from displays on windows, it was useless to me.

Instead now I think I would like about semi combo better than any VR headset virtual simpit. A few extra physical switches and buttons next to HOTAS (G940) and current 4k display with TrackIR.

 

I probably do get Rift when it comes out if price is OK. But I am prepared to sell it if there are serious drawbacks (low resolution).

[Chivas]

There are alot of comparisons being made between a supposedly finished product, TrackIR with a unfinished prototype Oculus Rift. The VR proof of concept is good enough now that investors with huge amounts of monies, and the best minds in the industry have flocked to its development. I see no reason why VR won't live up to the hype at some point in its development, and future consumer versions. Even then I'm sure some people will still prefer the "hat switch" or "TrackIR.