Seems Really Hard to Control the F-15

[Svend_Dellepude]

Thanks for that description GG.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2234286&postcount=23

 

Online I see a lot of ppl loading their Eagle with 3 tanks and 8 slammers and then expect the thing to be able to pull 9G turns at 40k all day.

Not saying you guys do that, but with some mindfulness on weight, G's and speed management, it's pretty easy to fly.

Nothing compared to the flanker for sure!

[apoll]

GGTharos, thanks for posting your detail. I won't bang in about high altitude stuff; as you say, clearly an issue but hopefully being worked on. I'm going to try your approach and speeds etc to practise; see how I go. If you were of a mind, and something that would really help, is for you to post a short vid of you taking on a Flanker/mig from the cockpit perspective at mid altitude level...so I can see your turns and what you do snd the AoA angles involved. I took on a Mig 23 the other day with only guns and to my shame, I just could not turn enough to get on his tail without the aircraft stalling snd shaking. I must be very ham fisted! One thing: what curves are you using on your joystick? I'm using 30 with no deadlines. Sound ok?

 

Apoll

[Holbeach]

I do it in the eagle pretty much every other day. Your circuit is not tight and I don't see you following any particular procedure. Your approach speed is excessive, and your pull up speed is inadequate for an eagle.

 

What exactly are you doing in the f15? A video is OK but I want you to describe what you are doing please.

 

And FYI, airframe buffet past 22uAoA is real and is one of the ways that pilots can tell how the aircraft is performing in real life, without looking at instruments.

 

Well it's worth watching then, just to see me making a hash of it.

 

Apollo got the point straight away, so I won't repeat his post.

 

The challenge for a tight pull up, as in the video, is for other people to try it in the Eagle, not me, because I can't do it.

 

The Su-27 doesn't buffet to the same extent as the F-15 and certainly there is no tin can sound to go with it.

 

There should be no buffeting in the circuit, unless you've got it wrong.

 

The pull up has to be hard or you will gain too much height, followed by a hard left bank to enter circuit height.

 

Lets see what you've got. :joystick:

[GGTharos]

Sorry, I just don't do videos, but I will try to get a track done at some point if I don't forget.

 

I'll definitely pull more than 22AoA and have the plane buffeting all over the place if I must :)

 

My suggestion to you though is that if you're being out-turned by a MiG-23, you're being very impatient and you're not managing your speed well.

 

Regarding curves, I use around 30 I think, and I have a very small dead-zone (real F-15 stick is very desensitized around it's trimmed position, for about 1" of pull. Probably can't really replicate this on your stick though). The dead-zone helps avoid inadvertent input from an axis that you're not intending to use.

 

If you were of a mind, and something that would really help, is for you to post a short vid of you taking on a Flanker/mig from the cockpit perspective at mid altitude level...so I can see your turns and what you do snd the AoA angles involved. I took on a Mig 23 the other day with only guns and to my shame, I just could not turn enough to get on his tail without the aircraft stalling snd shaking. I must be very ham fisted! One thing: what curves are you using on your joystick? I'm using 30 with no deadlines. Sound ok?

 

Apoll

Edited November 18, 2014 by GGTharos

[GGTharos]

There should be no buffeting in the circuit, unless you've got it wrong.

 

Says who? The eagle is supposed to be stable up to 30 uAoA, and buffeting starts at 22. Who says I can't pull as much AoA as I need?

 

The pull up has to be hard or you will gain too much height, followed by a hard left bank to enter circuit height.

 

The pull up, and the entire circuit re-entry technique it's really yours to dictate, especially since you 'can't do it'.

 

Lets see what you've got. :joystick:

 

I've described the procedure, how about you go ahead and show yourself what you've got.

[Holbeach]

Says who? The eagle is supposed to be stable up to 30 uAoA, and buffeting starts at 22. Who says I can't pull as much AoA as I need?

 

 

 

I've described the procedure, how about you go ahead and show yourself what you've got.

 

Why would you want to pull AoA to cause buffeting on the approach to a stall in the circuit? I'm glad I'm not your passenger. :helpsmilie:

 

Fend off a challenge with a challenge eh.

 

OK. I've been doing vids this morning. Lakenheath (Mozdok) F 15 circuits.

 

The problem is that while it is easy to pull up at 6g in the Flanker without breaking wind, I can't get more than 3.8 in the Eagle and I think it should do better than that.

 

BTW, I use standard overhead join for Lakenheath in all vids.

[GGTharos]

Why would you want to pull AoA to cause buffeting on the approach to a stall in the circuit? I'm glad I'm not your passenger. :helpsmilie:

 

Why would buffeting cause a stall?

 

Fend off a challenge with a challenge eh.

 

Issue a challenge when you can actually do something.

 

The problem is that while it is easy to pull up at 6g in the Flanker without breaking wind, I can't get more than 3.8 in the Eagle and I think it should do better than that.

 

BTW, I use standard overhead join for Lakenheath in all vids.

 

I have no idea what you're talking about regarding Lakenheath, and it doesn't even matter. What parameters are you flying? You're not 'doing it right' even in the Su-27, never mind the eagle. The Su-27 and eagle can both pull similar amount of sustained g's at subsonic airspeeds, except for below M0.4 where the flanker is quite superior.

 

As for how well the eagle should do, you think it should do better than that based on what? At what speed?

[Holbeach]

Why would buffeting cause a stall?

 

 

 

Issue a challenge when you can actually do something.

 

 

 

I have no idea what you're talking about regarding Lakenheath, and it doesn't even matter. What parameters are you flying? You're not 'doing it right' even in the Su-27, never mind the eagle. The Su-27 and eagle can both pull similar amount of sustained g's at subsonic airspeeds, except for below M0.4 where the flanker is quite superior.

 

As for how well the eagle should do, you think it should do better than that based on what? At what speed?

 

It doesn't cause a stall, it warns of an impending stall.

 

Iv'e already done something.

 

Lakenheath is the subject of my post and the inability of the Eagle to do a simple circuit as depicted in the vid is the problem. Mozdok is the substitute for Lakenheath, but you need some imagination to understand.

 

Sustained G. What's that got to do with a 2 second pull up?

 

It should do better than that based on observation and the fact that it is one of the best jet fighters the world has ever known.

[GGTharos]

You don't know how a 'circuit' is even done, and you can't even see the parameters from your video. So again, what are you talking about?

 

What observation? What speed is the pull up done at? What G? What AoA?

[panther494th]

yes i have felt the same way as you . play with the stick settings may help a bit try not to apply to much back pressure and speed 300 not less to turn .

i still hope they make it more stable.

[riboyster]

You guys are making it too complicated. Keep it simple. Deploy flaps, fire a dogfight missile high angle. Or if you are guns vs guns, drag him down to thicker air and outmaneuver him.

[Haukka81]

Something about how the DCS "engine" handles flight models in general, which is not good for me. Unfortunately, I think that this really is the case. Not helping anything, there is an inbred detrimental culture that DCS can do no wrong. Don't get me wrong, I realize the FM is better than 95% of what's out there, and there aren't many alternatives, but the planes all seem to fly "light". The closest thing I can think of is X-plane. The P-51 is nearly uncontrollable, same with the A-10C, way too airy, despite numerous or preposterous adjustments. At the periphery of the flight model there is very little modulation. I can land an F-15C full at Batumi, and only lose the tail or have to eject a third of the time, but there is very little dampening at flight edges, with very little feel of any momentum or inertia. It seems like you're flying in a kite and really on your own during many phases of the flight regime. Not making a mess, just making a comment.

 

Same feeling here too, planes feel just too "light" :huh:

[GGTharos]

So are these comparisons with respect to real f-15's, real cessna's, real 767's, or just feelings?

[NineLine]

Something about how the DCS "engine" handles flight models in general, which is not good for me. Unfortunately, I think that this really is the case. Not helping anything, there is an inbred detrimental culture that DCS can do no wrong. Don't get me wrong, I realize the FM is better than 95% of what's out there, and there aren't many alternatives, but the planes all seem to fly "light". The closest thing I can think of is X-plane. The P-51 is nearly uncontrollable, same with the A-10C, way too airy, despite numerous or preposterous adjustments. At the periphery of the flight model there is very little modulation. I can land an F-15C full at Batumi, and only lose the tail or have to eject a third of the time, but there is very little dampening at flight edges, with very little feel of any momentum or inertia. It seems like you're flying in a kite and really on your own during many phases of the flight regime. Not making a mess, just making a comment.

 

What kind of flight stick do you use? And how heavy should a high performance fighter feel?

[Haukka81]

So are these comparisons with respect to real f-15's, real cessna's, real 767's, or just feelings?

 

For me it's just feelings , but it may be controls setup etc..

[159th_Viper]

 

What simmers fail realize is.......

 

...... that they are not SME's and that ED have SME's flying the SIM, commenting on and correcting the PFM where necessary.

 

As such, should a simmer call into question the veracity of the PFM then you bloody well need to bring your A-Game to the party as you're arguing against not only talented Devs but against real Budgie-drivers as well.

[OnlyforDCS]

So are these comparisons with respect to real f-15's, real cessna's, real 767's, or just feelings?

 

Seems like a lot of people are basing their experience on one 'feeling' or another without having an inkling of how the real plane behaves or 'feels'.

 

I applaud your efforts GG but you cant prove things to people who insist on using irrationality as an argument.

 

Seems like a great many of them have never even flown in a passanger plane and don't realise how many different forces are acting on an airframe at any one time or even why.

[apoll]

Well...that started quite a useful discussion, with a whole range of responses, from "We bloody know better than you...so suck it up!" attitude from some of the ED testers...(Hey Viper...just because some of us aren't jet jockeys doesn't mean we have not learnt to fly for real...and know what a nicely turning aircraft feels like...), to really helpful, genuine suggestions for newbys from other testers (thanks Tharos for putting your specs and method where your mouth was...really helped...), to perplexed musings from simmers like myself. Sigh. What I did was take seriously comments about being ham fisted, read a really useful articles from SimHQ archives about how less is more when it comes to DCS modelling of joystick behaviour, and watched a lot of tutorials...and then I just jumped in a flew the sim lots. I turned, turned..and then turned some more. At all different altitudes and speeds...and all the while tried NOT to pull the stick too far back. And...I got better at it!! It still shakes and rattles like an old sow, but it is begrudgingly starting to turn tightly....IF (and note this well fellow simmers having my sort of issue...), you stay around corner speed (I reckon for me that is between 350-400kts)...IF I do not just pull it back into my stomach...and IF I keep an eye on the bandit properly. One of the hardest things to do is to keep your eye on the bandit as he flashed past, and NOT over pull the stick...or over climb on the turn. That's really hard to do...but when I can turn reliably at corner...in a flat plane...and still keep my eyes away from the cockpit visual cues and locked on what the bandit is doing, I reckon I will be a competent pilot of sorts. Can't do it yet...but I'm getting better with practise. The next thing to implement is Tacview...and watch every practice mission afterwards to see what I'm doing wrong...repeatedly...self assess. That's what I've discovered and dong to help myself from all these suggestions. It's still crap above 25k, and I have real issues with the Aim-120 effectiveness (they just don't hit reliably....fired off 4 the other night and STILL the Mig shrugged them off...one after another... Another fun us soon I reckon...c'mon you gun ED testers...the Aim-120 IS porked at the present, isn't it?? Ok..ok..another discussion...)...BUT she is responding...and a lighter touch sure helps.

 

Thanks all who posted sincerely to help. Much appreciated....

 

Apoll

[NineLine]

The point Viper was trying to make is that an actual Eagle pilot is testing exactly what you are flying in the sim, and while the PFM is not finished, and recommendations are still coming in from the SME, what you feel in the sim for the most part has been approved by a guy doing actual turns in an actual F-15C. None of the devs are taking that for granted, they are using it to make the very best FM they can. No matter how good it is, certain aspects of real flight cant be simulated, but be sure, the PFM is going to model as much of Eagle driving that is possible in a sim right now.

 

Well...that started quite a useful discussion, with a whole range of responses, from "We bloody know better than you...so suck it up!" attitude from some of the ED testers...(Hey Viper...just because some of us aren't jet jockeys doesn't mean we have not learnt to fly for real...and know what a nicely turning aircraft feels like...), to really helpful, genuine suggestions for newbys from other testers (thanks Tharos for putting your specs and method where your mouth was...really helped...), to perplexed musings from simmers like myself. Sigh. What I did was take seriously comments about being ham fisted, read a really useful articles from SimHQ archives about how less is more when it comes to DCS modelling of joystick behaviour, and watched a lot of tutorials...and then I just jumped in a flew the sim lots. I turned, turned..and then turned some more. At all different altitudes and speeds...and all the while tried NOT to pull the stick too far back. And...I got better at it!! It still shakes and rattles like an old sow, but it is begrudgingly starting to turn tightly....IF (and note this well fellow simmers having my sort of issue...), you stay around corner speed (I reckon for me that is between 350-400kts)...IF I do not just pull it back into my stomach...and IF I keep an eye on the bandit properly. One of the hardest things to do is to keep your eye on the bandit as he flashed past, and NOT over pull the stick...or over climb on the turn. That's really hard to do...but when I can turn reliably at corner...in a flat plane...and still keep my eyes away from the cockpit visual cues and locked on what the bandit is doing, I reckon I will be a competent pilot of sorts. Can't do it yet...but I'm getting better with practise. The next thing to implement is Tacview...and watch every practice mission afterwards to see what I'm doing wrong...repeatedly...self assess. That's what I've discovered and dong to help myself from all these suggestions. It's still crap above 25k, and I have real issues with the Aim-120 effectiveness (they just don't hit reliably....fired off 4 the other night and STILL the Mig shrugged them off...one after another... Another fun us soon I reckon...c'mon you gun ED testers...the Aim-120 IS porked at the present, isn't it?? Ok..ok..another discussion...)...BUT she is responding...and a lighter touch sure helps.

 

Thanks all who posted sincerely to help. Much appreciated....

 

Apoll

[apoll]

Sure SithSpawn...I get it. And the efforts are appreciated. Just needed to chase out this issue for me, since it is no fun to be crap at flying in a sim you really like. I've done that...and elicited a wide variety of responses, and gleaned some info which I've used to get better. I'm still pretty bad at it...but at least I am trying to really be lighter on the joystick, and sure enough, I was pulling too hard. Comes from all that time on Falcon 4 with its AoA limiter; in that sim, it stopped you from over pulling...in DCS, YOU are the AoA limiter. That's what I've learned... So I'm happy to keep plugging along while the devs refine the flight model.

 

Thanks.

 

Apoll

[winz]

Same feeling here too, planes feel just too "light" :huh:

That's weird, because for me DCS is about the only sim where the airplanes feel heavy and not just like big RC planes.

I don't have pilot license, but I had an introductory flight during which I piloted a light aircraft and in terms of 'weight' that thing felt like paper plane in comparison to any DCS module.

[GGTharos]

(thanks Tharos for putting your specs and method where your mouth was...really helped...),

 

No problem, you asked how to fly it, and then you tried it, and that's the right attitude.

 

I turned, turned..and then turned some more. At all different altitudes and speeds...and all the while tried NOT to pull the stick too far back. And...I got better at it!! It still shakes and rattles like an old sow, but it is begrudgingly starting to turn tightly....

 

One thing that helps in the F-15 is that the CAS relates force of pull - 4lbs/g, so the pilot can tell where to position the stick from muscle memory, not to mention the 'other feels' like actually feeling the G.

In game, you get something similar: Stick deflection is related to G, so in other words as long as the aircraft has enough speed to pull a certain amount of G, you will always get that G with the same stick deflection - so here you get an opportunity to train muscle memory.

 

The buffet indicated exceeding 22uAoA or so, so you can use this to judge how you're performing the airframe. This buffet should become more severe as you increase AoA, but this is not easy to simulate. There's also appropriate sound :)

 

IF (and note this well fellow simmers having my sort of issue...), you stay around corner speed (I reckon for me that is between 350-400kts)...IF I do not just pull it back into my stomach...and IF I keep an eye on the bandit properly.

 

Almost right - 350-420, and the exact peak is highly variable based on gross weight and altitude.

[GGTharos]

Thanks, I'm always curious where these things come from - sometimes pilots will report something specific and it can be resolved because they'll talk about the details, but generally speaking we can't get anything useful out of a feeling.

 

Certainly it's hard to nail down 'feeling' when all you get is a flat screen and some sound, and maybe an FFB stick :)

 

I have seen reports of people rating 'equivalent' FMs as feeling different, and I've seen people mistake an FM that is ... of lesser quality as 'more realistic'. This could be a study of its own, but it's difficult to conduct and I'm not sure if it would be a paid effort :)

 

In any case, the DCS FMs are very much on-the-ball. Do they have issues? Sure, there's no FM that doesn't. But a 'feeling of inertia' isn't one of their problems. Those things are calculated properly, and perhaps people either have strange expectations, or there are other environmental factors (graphics display, virtual head positioning in cockpit, feed-back mechanisms) that cause some people to report that it doesn't feel right.

 

For me it's just feelings , but it may be controls setup etc..

[NineLine]

I wouldnt expect many people to be great at flying the PFM F-15C right out of the box anyways, I know I wasnt, its not natural for someone that has no experience with high performance jets to go directly to an F-15C and start trying to perform basic combat manoeuvres. It will be that much more rewarding when you do get to a point when you become good with it though, knowing the work that went into learning it.

 

Sure SithSpawn...I get it. And the efforts are appreciated. Just needed to chase out this issue for me, since it is no fun to be crap at flying in a sim you really like. I've done that...and elicited a wide variety of responses, and gleaned some info which I've used to get better. I'm still pretty bad at it...but at least I am trying to really be lighter on the joystick, and sure enough, I was pulling too hard. Comes from all that time on Falcon 4 with its AoA limiter; in that sim, it stopped you from over pulling...in DCS, YOU are the AoA limiter. That's what I've learned... So I'm happy to keep plugging along while the devs refine the flight model.

 

Thanks.

 

Apoll

[mjolner]

This thread was a great read. Thanks for all who provided.

 

This is why I dont post much, too busy reading and taking it all in.