F86F Missiles = Useless?

[SimonColt]

Soooooo, I find the Missiles on the Sabre to be useless. I did a few test runs vs various aircraft, such as Yak40, Fw190s, P51s and MiG 15, all of which have given me disappointing results. It appears that I am unable to lock on unless I am within 1km of the target. Is this how it is supposed to work? And before you ask, yes I did turn the radar range up to max, I have it turned all the way to the right unless I am close to the ground and ground clutter starts to mess with the radar ranging.

 

Can someone explain to me why it is that the missiles seem only usable at ranges where I may as well switch to guns, close in to 500m and just use them instead?

[NineLine]

I think this is pretty accurate, these were some of the earliest adoptions of air-to-air missiles... I wouldnt expect state of the art performance... well 1950's state of the art :)

 

They may take more practice to become proficient with them....

[kontiuka]

Not completely useless. I've gotten a couple of Mig-15 kills with them. You have best results if you lead a bit with them instead of aiming right for the engine nozzle. But ya, they're far from reliable.

[golani79]

You should be able to use them from about 2km maximum range.

 

Every missile fired from above this range was a waste of ammo for me - but as said they should work within a ~2km range.

[SimonColt]

Well I knew that I shouldnt expect to snipe people from 10km out, but from what Golani said, the sound should change to the louder one indicating locking on from 2km or less, but it only changes when Im really close :S

[golani79]

From time to time I also have problems with getting a lock and it comes pretty late (within a range from under 1km) - not sure though why.

[WinterH]

Well they really are almost useless. Keyword here is, almost.

 

These are first generation sidewinders, and frankly are more intented as interception missiles than dogfighting missiles. There are several factors limiting their effectiveness against agile and non cooperative targets.

 

First off, their effective range is 1-2 kilometers. But range is least of the issues. Seeker needs a really big heat source, and the reason why these are known as "rear aspect" missiles is that, seeker needs to be looking right into jet exhaust pipe to get enough of a heat source to lock onto (hence, it can be difficult for it to acquire low heat sources at all, like a piston engine aircraft). Also turning radar range to max or turning it off have no effect whatsoever, sidewinder doesn't use radar to slave it's sensor to.

 

Other issues you will get into while dogfighting is, you can not be pulling more than 1.5-2 g while firing, since, even if you got a good lock tone, seeker won't be able to keep tracking the target while pulling that much g. Same goes for target, if target is pulling more than (if I recall correctly) 3g, missile won't be able keep tracking it. Also if the target can maneuver hard enough to turn it's engine away from the missile, it is quite likely for missile to lose heat source to track.

 

Also, I think it is not modeled that much hardcore in DCS incarnation (haven't tried it since many updates tohugh, so may be wrong in this one), actualy missile has a long minimum range of around 1km or 800 meters, and if fired closer than that it won't be too likely to track the target at all.

 

While it did give a nasty surprise and heavy losses to Chinese MiG-17 in sidewinder's combat debut from Taiwanese F-86, suprise was the key word here, MiGs most likely got usually downed by the missile when they were disengaging and/or didn't expect/knew how to deal with such a threat.

 

Long in short, it CAN work in dogfights, but those cases would be more exceptions than rule, and there are several reasons why it behaves the way it does in sim. For dogfighting yes, the guns are the better choice alright, especially against agile targets.

Edited November 28, 2014 by WinterH

[SimonColt]

Well they really are almost useless. Keyword here is, almost.

 

These are first generation sidewinders, and frankly are more intented as interception missiles than dogfighting missiles. There are several factors limiting their effectiveness against agile and non cooperative targets.

 

First off, their effective range is 1-2 kilometers. But range is least of the issues. Seeker needs a really big heat source, and the reason why these are known as "rear aspect" missiles is that, seeker needs to be looking right into jet exhaust pipe to get enough of a heat source to lock onto (hence, it can be difficult for it to acquire low heat sources at all, like a piston engine aircraft). Also turning radar range to max or turning it off have no effect whatsoever, sidewinder doesn't use radar to slave it's sensor to.

 

Other issues you will get into while dogfighting is, you can not be pulling more than 1.5-2 g while firing, since, even if you got a good lock tone, seeker won't be able to keep tracking the target while pulling that much g. Same goes for target, if target is pulling more than (if I recall correctly) 3g, missile won't be able keep tracking it. Also if the target can maneuver hard enough to turn it's engine away from the missile, it is quite likely for missile to lose heat source to track.

 

Also, I think it is not modeled that much hardcore in DCS incarnation (haven't tried it since many updates tohugh, so may be wrong in this one), actualy missile has a long minimum range of around 1km or 800 meters, and if fired closer than that it won't be too likely to track the target at all.

 

While it did give a nasty surprise and heavy losses to Chinese MiG-17 in sidewinder's combat debut from Taiwanese F-86, suprise was the key word here, MiGs most likely got usually downed by the missile when they were disengaging and/or didn't expect/knew how to deal with such a threat.

 

Long in short, it CAN work in dogfights, but those cases would be more exceptions than rule, and there are several reasons why it behaves the way it does in sim. For dogfighting yes, the guns are the better choice alright, especially against agile targets.

 

Thanks for explaining this in detail. Seems like the way I wanted them to use in, was the real issue. First I tried shooting down propeller planes, then agile migs hahah

[SgtPappy]

It gives yo an idea of just how badly equipped the US was when they went into Vietnam, initially with this very variant of the AIM-9! Or at least if I remember correctly.

[zaelu]

I find them not as badly as they were suppose to be or I heard they were.

 

If you fly within 2Km range of a Mig-15 (not pistons) and unload prior to launch for at least one second or you catch him flying straight a bit... is a almost certain kill or at least hit.

[xaoslaad]

I think I read somewhere they hit their target something like as little as less than 10% of the time. I made the joke that saying pew pew would be about the same as firing them when we had the plane without working missiles. If you fly 5 times you should only expect 1 missile to hit. On average.

 

It was also meant for non-maneuvering rear aspect attacks. Unaware targets (sadly no such thing in DCS, I think) or big bombers. Ground reflections and the sun could easily confuse it. Here they say 16% from '65-'68. If you fly 10 times, 2 missiles each, with proper conditions, 3 should hit, on average, even at that rate.

 

http://www.donhollway.com/foxtwo/

[Robin_Hood]

In addition to what has been said,

 

Soooooo, I find the Missiles on the Sabre to be useless. I did a few test runs vs various aircraft, such as Yak40, Fw190s, P51s and MiG 15, all of which have given me disappointing results.

 

You may have one of the contributing factors right there. FW-190 and P-51 are propeller-driven, not the best targets for a heat-seeking missile. I suspect the Yak-40 isn't the hottest either. Now the MiG-15 should give you better results. You can try the MiG-21Bis also, if it goes into afterburner you should have a real good heat source to lock your Sidewinder into.

[Roadrunner]

And before you ask, yes I did turn the radar range up to max, I have it turned all the way to the right unless I am close to the ground and ground clutter starts to mess with the radar ranging.

 

just for the records, the radar should not be needed at all, as those are IR missiles, unless i understood something wrong.

 

regards,

RR

[rpayne88]

Off topic:

Didn't this missile give the Soviets their first IR AAM? Didn't one of these jam into the tailpipe of a Mig and not go off?

[NeilWillis]

It does make you wonder why the Phantom went to war without an effective gun in Viet Nam doesn't it!

 

Our problem looking back to an earlier era is that we have expectations far beyond those of the pilots flying at the time. The missiles were a step forwards back then, but looking back, they seem to us to be as much use as broom handles. I guess like all things, in the right circumstances they're effective, but used incorrectly - useless. You just have to think like a 50's pilot - discuss how the world is going to come to an end now rock n roll is casting a dark shadow over society, go to the milk bar before take off, and save up for your first fridge!

 

And of course, if you're English, remember, you'll still have to get your ration book out to buy your milkshake, and even pilots get the bus home after a sortie!

[whitehot]

Off topic:

Didn't this missile give the Soviets their first IR AAM? Didn't one of these jam into the tailpipe of a Mig and not go off?

 

yes, it jammed into a chinese mig-17 who got back to his base i think

 

Anyway, I see the missiles on the sabre a purely intercept loadout. I wouldn't get into a dogfight with those bricks under my wings - in a dogfight I prefer to have my wings clean, not even with pilons (although i don't know if they are taken in account in physics calculations, if empty). Given the fact that in a F-86, my advantage over the Mig-15 lies in my superior maneuverability, I would lose that advantage with those AAMs. In fact, imho they are way too ineffective against agile, maneuvering targets to outweigh the upsaid advantage.

 

If we are talking bomber targets instead, I'd be willing to bring the AAMs all the times - The .50 cals on the sabre aren't exactly big caliber cannons, and even a old 1st gen sidewinder hitting a bomber in the right spot (ofc into or near an engine) would almost guarantee a kill.

 

But again, just my 2 cents, some other folks probably can put the aams to use even in dogfights