Take Off in the Bf 109K-4

[leafer]

what about landing? :D

[shagrat]

Landing the Bf-109 K4 thread as a starting point :smartass:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=134953

[Screamadelica]

Regarding the manual propeller pitch setting for take off, there is an interesting article on the BF109 E in the February issue of Flypast magazine where the pilot mentions using a setting of 11:45.

I gave it a few tries and it seems to make it a little easier to keep the aircraft under control, yet still plenty of power for take off, so it may also apply to the K series as well.

He also quoted a former Luftwaffe pilot Oskar Bosch who had said to keep the aircraft in three point attitude and just let it fly itself off the ground, and not to use forward stick pressure to lift the tail.

This 109 is a joy to fly.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

- Intentionally left blank -

Edited August 17, 2015 by jcomm

[Ghilliedraptor]

I've managed to takeoff with the P-51D with no issues at all but the operation of the K4 eludes me. The plane perpetually seems to want to go up and left, even when I'm at full nose down trim and pushing down on my joystick as much as possible without breaking it, and it seems to shake around quite a bit. This is unfortunate as most takeoffs end in me in pieces on the tarmac. I've watched a couple of videos on takeoff procedure and have tried to emulate their success to no avail. Any pointers?

 

I'm using a 3D logitech pro with pitch and roll settings are 18 curvature and yaw at 28. All take offs are attempted with the instant mission "takeoff".

[Sporg]

I've managed to takeoff with the P-51D with no issues at all but the operation of the K4 eludes me. The plane perpetually seems to want to go up and left, even when I'm at full nose down trim and pushing down on my joystick as much as possible without breaking it, and it seems to shake around quite a bit. This is unfortunate as most takeoffs end in me in pieces on the tarmac. I've watched a couple of videos on takeoff procedure and have tried to emulate their success to no avail. Any pointers?

 

I'm using a 3D logitech pro with pitch and roll settings are 18 curvature and yaw at 28. All take offs are attempted with the instant mission "takeoff".

 

 

First of all, try to drop your joystick curves.

They might help you near the middle, but not when you need the extrems like here.

Linear response is better.

 

Secondly, check if you have rudder assist on in settings?

Might interfere with your control attempts.

 

Third, my procedure for take off:

 

1. Hold stick aft and somewhat to the right.
   
2. Put the throttle relatively fast to 1.4 ATA position (ATA will overshoot to 1.8+ ATA but will come back and settle at 1.4).
   
3. Control any deviation sideways with hard rudder inputs, letting go a little again as the aircraft responds. Especially in the beginning the inputs are very hard right rudder.
   
4. As she speeds up gentle lift the tail, being cautious for the direction change as the tail wheel lifts off the ground.
   
5. Keep the stick a bit forward and to the right as the aircraft lifts off, and be ready to catch its tendency to nose up.
   
6. Once in the air, lift the wheels and when you feel stable, lower the throttle and notice how you can slowly ease on the controls as well.
   
7. Good cruising speed is around 1.2 ATA or lower.
   

I'm not saying that this is the right procedure, but that's how I do it at least. :)

[Ala13_ManOWar]

I've managed to takeoff with the P-51D with no issues at all but the operation of the K4 eludes me. The plane perpetually seems to want to go up and left, even when I'm at full nose down trim and pushing down on my joystick as much as possible without breaking it, and it seems to shake around quite a bit. This is unfortunate as most takeoffs end in me in pieces on the tarmac. I've watched a couple of videos on takeoff procedure and have tried to emulate their success to no avail. Any pointers?

 

I'm using a 3D logitech pro with pitch and roll settings are 18 curvature and yaw at 28. All take offs are attempted with the instant mission "takeoff".

I would add to Sporg tips, don't use flaps, no matter who tells you, don't and you'll get aircraft grounded and controlled farther not trying to take off too soon. 109 takes off quite well with just 1.3 ATA, try not going full power if you can't control it. Full power is 1.4 as Sporg says, don't go 1.8 ATA probably without MW50 so you'll break the engine short after take off and 1.8 has tons of torque to deal with you can't stand. Keep practising, your Logitech control and twist grip isn't the most adequate for a hardcore module of a beast like 109. Good luck :smilewink:.

 

S!

[Ghilliedraptor]

First of all, try to drop your joystick curves.

They might help you near the middle, but not when you need the extrems like here.

Linear response is better.

 

Secondly, check if you have rudder assist on in settings?

Might interfere with your control attempts.

 

Third, my procedure for take off:

 

1. Hold stick aft and somewhat to the right.
   
2. Put the throttle relatively fast to 1.4 ATA position (ATA will overshoot to 1.8+ ATA but will come back and settle at 1.4).
   
3. Control any deviation sideways with hard rudder inputs, letting go a little again as the aircraft responds. Especially in the beginning the inputs are very hard right rudder.
   
4. As she speeds up gentle lift the tail, being cautious for the direction change as the tail wheel lifts off the ground.
   
5. Keep the stick a bit forward and to the right as the aircraft lifts off, and be ready to catch its tendency to nose up.
   
6. Once in the air, lift the wheels and when you feel stable, lower the throttle and notice how you can slowly ease on the controls as well.
   
7. Good cruising speed is around 1.2 ATA or lower.
   

I'm not saying that this is the right procedure, but that's how I do it at least. :)

 

I would add to Sporg tips, don't use flaps, no matter who tells you, don't and you'll get aircraft grounded and controlled farther not trying to take off too soon. 109 takes off quite well with just 1.3 ATA, try not going full power if you can't control it. Full power is 1.4 as Sporg says, don't go 1.8 ATA probably without MW50 so you'll break the engine short after take off and 1.8 has tons of torque to deal with you can't stand. Keep practising, your Logitech control and twist grip isn't the most adequate for a hardcore module of a beast like 109. Good luck :smilewink:.

 

S!

 

It seems like I've been using (abusing) the throttle and the resultant torque was the culprit behind my many unsuccessful takeoffs. It's still a challenge to taxi and control the 109 using just twist rudder but when I do takeoff, it's incredibly smooth and pleasant to fly. Appreciate the help guys!

[Hadwell]

here's my attempt:

 

YUr1eW8DHq4

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

1,45 ATA max for takeoffs and it's piece of cake :)

[jester_]

Man, everyone is making takeoff much harder than it has to be. I just lock the tailwheel, do a few clicks of nose down trim so the aircraft doesn't rip itself up off the ground.

 

I set prop pitch to 12:00, slowly push the throttle to 1.2 ATA, deflect right rudder as needed, and let the airplane fly itself off the ground. I never even have to touch the stick on takeoff.

[Sporg]

Man, everyone is making takeoff much harder than it has to be. I just lock the tailwheel, do a few clicks of nose down trim so the aircraft doesn't rip itself up off the ground.

 

I set prop pitch to 12:00, slowly push the throttle to 1.2 ATA, deflect right rudder as needed, and let the airplane fly itself off the ground. I never even have to touch the stick on takeoff.

 

Thanks for that tip.

It's perfect, it works. :-)

 

Also tried flying with fixed prop pitch now, very different feeling of the plane. ,-)

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

As per some rw texts, I manually set prop at 11:30, and ATA at 1,4 for takeoff, full right rudder, locked tailwheel and initially I also use stick back and to the left.

 

I ease on the stick probably around 150 km/h, it just feels good to go at that speed and I do not keep following the ASI but rather concentrate on the outside visual references to keep the aircraft aligned with the rw...

[Yo-Yo]

Slow TO from 3 points.

 

https://www.facebook.com/Break/videos/10153712783167792/

[MiloMorai]

Slow TO from 3 points.

 

https://www.facebook.com/Break/videos/10153712783167792/

 

Not a full scale Spitfire tho.

[LeCuvier]

Man, everyone is making takeoff much harder than it has to be. I just lock the tailwheel, do a few clicks of nose down trim so the aircraft doesn't rip itself up off the ground.

 

I set prop pitch to 12:00, slowly push the throttle to 1.2 ATA, deflect right rudder as needed, and let the airplane fly itself off the ground. I never even have to touch the stick on takeoff.

 

Thanks! This worked the first time I tried without using auto-rudder or takeoff assistance! Previously I destroyed my kite about a dozen times trying to follow the manual. It took me a little while though to understand that the "Drehzahl" rocker switch just controls the pitch and not the RPM.

 

A little remark though: When the gun sight is active, the flare pistol hides most of the prop pitch indicator; so you cannot see the actual pitch you have set. When you fold the gun sight down the perspective changes miraculously and you can see most of the prop pitch indicator. Personally I would love to get rid of that pistol or have an option to hide it!

 

22/OCT/2015: After my firs successful take-off I kept crashing again. The brutal propeller torque forced me to bank left so I hit the ground; and the aileron could not prevent that. I determined that I probably let the kite take off too early at insufficient speed and therefore the ailerons have little effect. I also found that even during flight the trim needs to be close to 2 in order to keep the nose level, and concluded that I need more forward trim for take-off. Based on this I modified my take-off process.

1. Propeller pitch to 12:00 (with engine governor in Manual)

2. Trim to between 1.5 and 2 (Closer to 2. With lower trim settings I cannot keep her on the ground long enough)

3. Tail wheel locked

4. Stick pulled back and a bit to the right

5. Rev it up to 2500 RPM and then release the brake. (with more practice I might be able to do it at a higher rev rate)

6. Immediately start giving it lots of soft taps on the right wheel brake as she tries to break left

7. Keep the stick pulled back until I run probably at about 150 or more and she decides to go up

8. Now she still wants to bank left but with a lot of right aileron input I can now control that

9. Wheels up, engine governor to Automatic, flaps up (if they were down), gradually increase power and climb

10. Adjust the trim if necessary (usually not much)

This process works for me all the time except when I let her rise too soon.

Note: Once I forgot to set the engine governor back to automatic. That caused poor climbing performance (me stupidly wondering why) and eventually killed the engine.

Edited October 22, 2015 by LeCuvier
more take-off and flight experience

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Would LOVE to have one of these in DCS :-)

 

 

on 2nd thoughts, make it ALL OF THESE Please :-)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMEEEepyIo4

Edited October 21, 2015 by jcomm

[shagrat]

Thanks! This worked the first time I tried without using auto-rudder or takeoff assistance! Previously I destroyed my kite about a dozen times trying to follow the manual. It took me a little while though to understand that the "Drehzahl" rocker switch just controls the pitch and not the RPM.

 

A little remark though: When the gun sight is active, the flare pistol hides most of the prop pitch indicator; so you cannot see the actual pitch you have set. When you fold the gun sight down the perspective changes miraculously and you can see most of the prop pitch indicator. Personally I would love to get rid of that pistol or have an option to hide it!

In 1.5 you can "hide" the flare pistol in the Mission Editor! Select the plane, look into the options there is a new check box.

Needs to be done in the mission design unfortunately. A "Key command" would be better, but for the time being it is at least possible to get rid of the flare pistol.

[LeCuvier]

Thanks Shagrat! I had not noticed the new tab. And actually I'm ok with having this option in the mission editor since the flare gun is part of the selected "weapons", just like rockets.

[shagrat]

Thanks Shagrat! I had not noticed the new tab. And actually I'm ok with having this option in the mission editor since the flare gun is part of the selected "weapons", just like rockets.

Actually the Pilot had it strapped on the leg, or stowed in the cockpit and put it into the tube, when needed... At least that's what I have read.

Thus I would prefer a Hotkey to use the flares when needed and stow them while flying... ;)

[Buzzles]

In 1.5 you can "hide" the flare pistol in the Mission Editor! Select the plane, look into the options there is a new check box.

Needs to be done in the mission design unfortunately. A "Key command" would be better, but for the time being it is at least possible to get rid of the flare pistol.

 

It's not new for 1.5 though. It's definitely in 1.2.16 despite it being in the 1.5 patch notes.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Buzzles

[LeCuvier]

Man, everyone is making takeoff much harder than it ...

we should not feel too bad about our difficulties with taking off and landing the Bf-109. Some citations from the book "Luftwaffe Fighter Aces" by Mike Spick below.

First, statements made by Werner Mölders (one of the top Luftwaffe aces with 100 victories when he was promoted to General of the Fighters), who had the opportunity to fly captured Spitfires and Hurricanes in 1940 after his return from captivity in France:

"Both types are very easy to fly compared with our aircraft, and childishly easy to take off and land."

Second, narrative from Spick's book: "The Bf-109, of whatever model, was an unforgiving aeroplane. Many aircraft and pilots were lost as a result of take-off and landing accidents. It suffered from incipient swings caused by torque from the engine, and if lifted off the ground to soon tended to roll on to its back." The book has similar comments about landing the Bf-109.

As to myself, I can manage to take off now; but landing is still an adventure and the repair crew gets some work most of the times.

January 2016:

I can now land without damage most of the time if I'm concentrated. If I fail it's one of these causes:

1. Too slow at threshold point. Need to have at least 210 km/h.

2. Too high vertical speed at touchdown. Need to keep it below 1 m/s

3. Throttle increase too late in the game (because I'm too slow approaching the threshold point) causing suicide by torque.

Edited January 26, 2016 by LeCuvier
Progress with landing

[Sporg]

we should not feel too bad about our difficulties with taking off and landing the Bf-109. Some citations from the book "Luftwaffe Fighter Aces" by Mike Spick below.

 

Second, narrative from Spick's book: "The Bf-109, of whatever model, was an unforgiving aeroplane. Many aircraft and pilots were lost as a result of take-off and landing accidents. It suffered from incipient swings caused by torque from the engine, and if lifted off the ground to soon tended to roll on to its back." The book has similar comments about landing the Bf-109.

 

Well, tell that to the guys who keep claiming that the 109 is suuuch a stable aircraft.. :D

 

Have learned taking off, and made easy by jester's suggestions.

But, like you, repair crews usually gets something to do after my landings. :)

 

PS Thanks for the nice quotes. :)

[shagrat]

The majority of accidents, happened in the late war, when pilots with a few hours training on gliders were put into Bf.109s...

Though the plane is indeed unforgiving and a real beast, once airborne it is a real stable yet agile aircraft, that can be flown on edge of it performance envelope.

On landing just treat her not too gentle. The key is the approach... Low, steady 200- 210km/h, trim tail heavy, and I mean heavy.

It is perfectly normal that you need to push the stick to keep the plane straight on approach... If you get near 200km/h drop the nose to keep speed! Do NOT flare!!! Do not slow down below 200km/h before you are really close to the threshold, if you need to gain speed with the throttle nudge it forward veeeery gentle and counter with rudder or induced torque will kill you... Better not to get too slow. 210km/h is fine.

Once over the threshold, slow the throttle to 190-195km/h keep the plane in a stable 3 point attitude and let it slowly sink to the runway, the lower you are above the runway at this point, the better.

Now if the plane touch down slowly relax the stick from forward to center and let the tail settle 2-3sec then pull back to get weight on the tail wheel and if you need to stop quickly use wheelbrakes. If properly trimmed and stick back you can hit hard on the brakes, just pump to prevent overheating.

When you slow down be careful to release the brakes, the slower you get there is a point when the tail lifts when you brake hard. Anticipate and relax the brakes.

Also it is pretty normal to use the brakes to keep the plane straight.

 

What you must NEVER DO: steep approach angle to the threshold, get too slow on approach (flare) and especially don't push the throttle forward when below 220km/h instakill from torque! If you need to abort and go around, push the nose, slowly advance throttle and give right rudder...

 

One of my biggest blocking points was my fear of "running out of runway" and try to settle the plane quickly after or at the threshold! Forget it, just let her settle, no rush.

With brakes this plane can stop in a fifth of the usual runway, no problem.

[jimcarrel]

 

What you must NEVER DO: steep approach angle to the threshold, get too slow on approach (flare) and especially don't push the throttle forward when below 220km/h instakill from torque! If you need to abort and go around, push the nose, slowly advance throttle and give right rudder...

 

Very important point during landing procedure.

It can be hard to figure out what is going on.