104th Phoenix Dedicated Server Info

[Madman777]

Howdy. I hope this is the right place to post this.

 

I've noticed a lot of people complaining about pilots locking friendly pilots with radar. And also the team killing.

 

I have two points to make about this issue.

 

1st. Sometimes it is unavoidable and friendlies get locked on radar. More specifically when I'm using close combat mode or any other radar mode that auto locks. I lock friendlies unintentionally from doing this. In the heat of the battle with multiple friendlies and enemies nearby, it's unavoidable. The key is to IFF right after the lock then fire. You don't usually have much time. But that's the way it is.

 

2nd. If an enemy or friendly locks you up, your first instinct is the aquire and evade. Now, how do you know if it's bad guy or good guy? You can't really unless you have voice coms, and even then you may not have time to wait for answer to your raygun.

 

When you've been locked up I believe most people assume it's enemy and will also engage the aircraft that's locked him up. Just remember not to automatically assume it's enemy and engage without doing IFF.

 

The only thing I can think of that may help with this issue is to immediately unlock the aircraft if it's friendly. That doesn't nessessarly mean it's a friendly but it may help.

 

Also, in order to IFF with Mirage , you need to radar lock that aircraft.

 

So just to be sure people are aware. Locking up a friendly aircraft is sometimes unavoidable.

 

Thanks. :-)

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

[Frostie]

 

Also, in order to IFF with Mirage , you need to radar lock that aircraft.

 

 

But only visual targets, you can iff on the radar screen before locking otherwise it is the same situation as the F-15 which needs to hard lock visual targets to get iff.

 

You make some good points, I don't see why people should complain about friendly locks unless this is happening in uncontested territory. I'm sure it is frustrating when pilots come in without reading the brief, take off, fly low get little SA and lock up the first thing they see visually eg. the aircraft that just took off with them.

[Tricky11]

But only visual targets, you can iff on the radar screen before locking otherwise it is the same situation as the F-15 which needs to hard lock visual targets to get iff.

 

You make some good points, I don't see why people should complain about friendly locks unless this is happening in uncontested territory. I'm sure it is frustrating when pilots come in without reading the brief, take off, fly low get little SA and lock up the first thing they see visually eg. the aircraft that just took off with them.

 

Because usually if its a m2000 locking you up they 6 times out of 10 fire a missile at you whether friendly or foe. Lol. And the f15 does not need to hard lock to iff? Where do you get this info?

[Frostie]

And the f15 does not need to hard lock to iff? Where do you get this info?

Reread what I wrote.

Unless you can visually id an enemy you need to hard lock a visually acquired target with a CQC mode unless Nescafe you're in the habit of pointing your nose at an aircraft mid merge to check it on your VSD.

[TheThumper]

I understand getting locked up time to time from friendlies. My only complaint is the continuous lock. I can't complain too much as if I just got on TS, I could then hit up the person that might be locking me. I flying time is fairly short so I forgo TS a lot :( so in the end, guess I can't complain.

[Madman777]

But only visual targets, you can iff on the radar screen before locking otherwise it is the same situation as the F-15 which needs to hard lock visual targets to get iff.

 

You make some good points, I don't see why people should complain about friendly locks unless this is happening in uncontested territory. I'm sure it is frustrating when pilots come in without reading the brief, take off, fly low get little SA and lock up the first thing they see visually eg. the aircraft that just took off with them.

Oops. I meant in close combat modes or other autolock radar modes it has to lock you first.

 

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

[104th_Maverick]

Today on the 104th Server is SARH Sunday! No AMRAAMS all day until approx 00:00z

 

Missions in rotation will be Operation Armageddon SARH, Operation Able Archer SARH, Operation Leopard SARH, Operation Firesheld SARH and Operations Bison and Backfire

 

All SARH missions will be Aim7, vs R27R and R27T, Operation Bison will continue to be Aim7 vs R27ER, Operation Backfire will also be Aim7 vs R27R and R27T.

 

There are no restrictions for the Mirage2000.

 

Edited March 5, 2017 by [Maverick]

[Falcon_S]

Nice. Good fight last night in Backfire mission.

[Coxy_99]

Life on the 104th :lol:

 

 

[NaCH]

Howdy. I hope this is the right place to post this.

 

I've noticed a lot of people complaining about pilots locking friendly pilots with radar. And also the team killing.

 

I have two points to make about this issue.

 

1st. Sometimes it is unavoidable and friendlies get locked on radar. More specifically when I'm using close combat mode or any other radar mode that auto locks. I lock friendlies unintentionally from doing this. In the heat of the battle with multiple friendlies and enemies nearby, it's unavoidable. The key is to IFF right after the lock then fire. You don't usually have much time. But that's the way it is.

 

This only applies to plane that has a radar capable to operate in low level.

These can't:

SU25A & T

Mig21

Viggen

A10

Gazelle.

 

 

2nd. If an enemy or friendly locks you up, your first instinct is the aquire and evade. Now, how do you know if it's bad guy or good guy? You can't really unless you have voice coms, and even then you may not have time to wait for answer to your raygun.

 

 

 

You are assuming people are in the TS, most of the time and entire team is not in TS... and using CHAT to id in the middle of dogfight is impossible.

 

The solution actually should be that planes should set per side, that way at least you have a chance to Visual PID it.

 

Also, in order to IFF with Mirage , you need to radar lock that aircraft.

 

You can IFF a contact at the distance using your steering wheel key, of course in a dogfight that is not that easy :D

[bn880]

I understand getting locked up time to time from friendlies. My only complaint is the continuous lock. I can't complain too much as if I just got on TS, I could then hit up the person that might be locking me. I flying time is fairly short so I forgo TS a lot :( so in the end, guess I can't complain.

 

I agree, its when you get constant locks, and the threat keeps coming at you long enough then it's kinda hard in a ground pounder not to do what has to be done.

 

(this happened to me over a Blue TA in an A10, I felt bad, but I did shoot down the fighter as it was an extremely obvious situation to them, or should have been)

 

 

The point on breaking up aircraft per side is great, it would help tremendously for aircraft without electronic IFF means, just visual. I do still see major limitaitons in aircaft selection though which probably still blocks this.

[al531246]

The solution actually should be that planes should set per side, that way at least you have a chance to Visual PID it.

 

This is the solution but there's always gonna be those that oppose it. If it we're my server I'd say screw em and set it straight but that's Maverick's call, not mine.

 

I believe BlueFlag uses NATO for BLU and Warsaw Pact for RED. This is a much more realistic scenario that what we have on the 104th. Like the guy above me mentioned; when you're ground pounding in your A-10C and '29' appears on the RWR you've got no clue who's side he's on. Sometimes they're friendly and lock you up just to get a visual reference but for me that's a hostile act and many a time I've ended up shooting down friendlies.

 

I don't think TS is the solution - if everyone was to be in one channel the voice spam would be unbearable. A SimpleRadio server would go some way to helping. But unless RWR's have IFF inbuilt there's really no other way.

 

Also - Mirage IFF guide - all Mirage pilots read this

[microvax]

Do not shoot before AWACS or visual ID by cammo or type identifies a contact as hostile if you do not have IFF at hand.

 

If one shoots by factors like long STT or other rather speculative things, one is simply trading potentially killing a friendly for potentially solving a dangerous situation for ones own flight, for which only one self is responsible in the first place.

 

 

And that is, to put it mildly, not nice. :P

[bn880]

Do not shoot before AWACS or visual ID by cammo or type identifies a contact as hostile if you do not have IFF at hand.

 

If one shoots by factors like long STT or other rather speculative things, one is simply trading potentially killing a friendly for potentially solving a dangerous situation for ones own flight, for which only one self is responsible in the first place.

 

 

And that is, to put it mildly, not nice. :P

 

So your response to some aircraft having IFF and others not, and mixing aircraft per side, and people locking friendly A-G aircraft in figthers that have IFF needlessly long, is for the aircraft without IFF capability to spend potentially 1 minute not firing? That's your ONLY solution right? Very Idealistic ;) Not gonna happen. (so the suggestion is also for an A10 to get within 2km of an F15 to spot some camoflage markings, which are not even disclosed in the briefing? Meanwhile the F15 can engage the A10 BVR :p quite funny, certain death)

 

The point is, there are all kinds of aircraft out there, and all types of players, if you want to live you have to currently take a few blind shots. The Game designers and the mission designers along with the overall situation force this. Remember this is NOT real life, as is evident from IFF not working, and vehicles of the same type being used on both sides constantly. Intel is rare too. And nobody actually dies of course.

Edited March 7, 2017 by bn880

[microvax]

So your response to some aircraft having IFF and others not, and mixing aircraft per side, and people locking friendly A-G aircraft in figthers that have IFF needlessly long, is for the aircraft without IFF capability to spend potentially 1 minute not firing? That's your ONLY solution right? Very Idealistic ;) Not gonna happen. (so the suggestion is also for an A10 to get within 2km of an F15 to spot some camoflage markings, which are not even disclosed in the briefing? Meanwhile the F15 can engage the A10 BVR :p quite funny, certain death)

 

"to spend potentially 1 minute not firing?", yes if needed hold fire until you are bingo, if you are not sure. Its not idealistic, its simply a base for having a nice time together online. Everyone of us has so and so much time he can and want to dedicate to DCS and its completely up to him how he spends that.

I think its simply unacceptable though to shoot a potentially hostile, potentially friendly target, effectively risking ruining the fun someone else has and effectively reducing the time he has fun, just to potentially save one owns, despite one has choosen the obviously high stakes operation to get into situation having to decide on this at all.

 

So its simply not idealistic, only to shoot if one is sure of ones target, its a basic requirement for complying with "Fair Play is MANDATORY AT ALL TIMES".

 

Especially in the scenario you are depicting, hostile f15 vs a10. If the F15 isnt quite below average on skill, the a10 will be dead before anything happens. If the F15 is somehow missing the a10, its up to the a10 to use that only advantage he has, not beeing detected, to make something of it.

 

And I totally get that its satisfying to down a high end a2a platform with some kind of plane, less capable in that arena. But that doesnt justify trigger happy behaviour.

 

So hell yes, if the a10 isnt sure of the potential hostiles hostility, better die not knowing, taking responsibility for your own decision to go there, then downing someone else, who is indeed allied.

 

Thats the only logical solution I see to this "problem".

 

The point is, there are all kinds of aircraft out there, and all types of players, if you want to live you have to currently take a few blind shots. The Game designers and the mission designers along with the overall situation force this. Remember this is NOT real life, as is evident from IFF not working, and vehicles of the same type being used on both sides constantly. Intel is rare too. And nobody actually dies of course.

 

No, simply stay safe if you "want to live".

Nobody forces you to shoot undeclared targets. If you do, you are basically violating "Fair Play is MANDATORY AT ALL TIMES". At best ones own bad decision making, greed and disrespect for other players forces one to take blind shots.

 

I do not exactly get how IFF not working as it does non simulated, for that timeframe of planes we have, is an argument against visual ID. If IFF would be as reliable as IRL we would basically not rely on IFF for BVR. Its a good indication, but visual ID beeing base for ROE even in desert storm might indicate how sure of an indication. :)

[gospadin]

"to spend potentially 1 minute not firing?", yes if needed hold fire until you are bingo, if you are not sure. Its not idealistic, its simply a base for having a nice time together online.

 

This actually mirrors real-life ROE throughout history much more closely.

 

There's been remarkably little BVR combat in the last 50 years as compared to WVR.

 

--gos

[bn880]

This actually mirrors real-life ROE throughout history much more closely.

 

There's been remarkably little BVR combat in the last 50 years as compared to WVR.

 

--gos

Yes but this isn't real life and those F15's and Su/migs fire right away. You can say what you want, but you're telling ground pounders they essentially cant fire back , just die. If we're going to go by RL and confirmations, then everyone including the superiority fighters should wait to ID visually or to get approval from a fictional authority. :p

 

Not everyone is going to follow some idealistic IFF guidelines. This is why I say the missions (not just on 104th) should be balanced, right after ED produces aircraft to level out the playing field. Like something to match Su25t anti radiation, ka50 gunship etc. ;) just a voice of reason. This isn't anything very complex, any reasonable person should be concerned with the mix of aircraft per side and non functioning IFF etc.

[bn880]

"to spend potentially 1 minute not firing?", yes if needed hold fire until you are bingo, if you are not sure. Its not idealistic, its simply a base for having a nice time together online. Everyone of us has so and so much time he can and want to dedicate to DCS and its completely up to him how he spends that.

I think its simply unacceptable though to shoot a potentially hostile, potentially friendly target, effectively risking ruining the fun someone else has and effectively reducing the time he has fun, just to potentially save one owns, despite one has choosen the obviously high stakes operation to get into situation having to decide on this at all.

 

So its simply not idealistic, only to shoot if one is sure of ones target, its a basic requirement for complying with "Fair Play is MANDATORY AT ALL TIMES".

 

Especially in the scenario you are depicting, hostile f15 vs a10. If the F15 isnt quite below average on skill, the a10 will be dead before anything happens. If the F15 is somehow missing the a10, its up to the a10 to use that only advantage he has, not beeing detected, to make something of it.

 

And I totally get that its satisfying to down a high end a2a platform with some kind of plane, less capable in that arena. But that doesnt justify trigger happy behaviour.

 

So hell yes, if the a10 isnt sure of the potential hostiles hostility, better die not knowing, taking responsibility for your own decision to go there, then downing someone else, who is indeed allied.

 

Thats the only logical solution I see to this "problem".

 

 

 

No, simply stay safe if you "want to live".

Nobody forces you to shoot undeclared targets. If you do, you are basically violating "Fair Play is MANDATORY AT ALL TIMES". At best ones own bad decision making, greed and disrespect for other players forces one to take blind shots.

 

I do not exactly get how IFF not working as it does non simulated, for that timeframe of planes we have, is an argument against visual ID. If IFF would be as reliable as IRL we would basically not rely on IFF for BVR. Its a good indication, but visual ID beeing base for ROE even in desert storm might indicate how sure of an indication. :)

 

More idealistic nonsense here, sorry. It's not RL. Lots of things are missing, planes mixed per side, people are not confirming before firing with any authority. Most missions don't have awacs or anything anyway. Really it all would make sense if it was somehow properly designed and enforced, but it isnt.

[Frostie]

Yes but this isn't real life and those F15's and Su/migs fire right away. You can say what you want, but you're telling ground pounders they essentially cant fire back , just die. If we're going to go by RL and confirmations, then everyone including the superiority fighters should wait to ID visually or to get approval from a fictional authority. :p

 

Not everyone is going to follow some idealistic IFF guidelines. This is why I say the missions (not just on 104th) should be balanced, right after ED produces aircraft to level out the playing field. Like something to match Su25t anti radiation, ka50 gunship etc. ;) just a voice of reason. This isn't anything very complex, any reasonable person should be concerned with the mix of aircraft per side and non functioning IFF etc.

 

I don't understand what you mean by non functioning iff. Planes like tha A-10 etc. don't have interogators they only have transponders which react to friendly fighters and SAMs that interogate them. An A-10, Ka50 can't iff and rely on intel, good SA and mk1 eyeball.

 

If you're entering a contested zone then you should be going with fighter cover on comms, otherwise you're asking for trouble. If this is what you want then you need to learn to notch and defend to force a merge because if your only tactic is blind firing on anything you see then you need to get back to the safety net and stop trying to play with fire, aswell as potentially ruining others enjoyment.

 

When i'm unable to iff, firing on something i'm not sure of is ridiculous, I will always try and visually id, gather communication or pick up the situation on how he is behaving. This serves me and most everyone else well so why try and be ahead of the curve just for your own gain. It is all part of the learning curve, don't be that guy that doesn't care for anyone else because he only wants to hit the instawin button.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Frostie

[bn880]

I don't understand what you mean by non functioning iff. Planes like tha A-10 etc. don't have interogators they only have transponders which react to friendly fighters and SAMs that interogate them. An A-10, Ka50 can't iff and rely on intel, good SA and mk1 eyeball.

 

If you're entering a contested zone then you should be going with fighter cover on comms, otherwise you're asking for trouble. If this is what you want then you need to learn to notch and defend to force a merge because if your only tactic is blind firing on anything you see then you need to get back to the safety net and stop trying to play with fire, aswell as potentially ruining others enjoyment.

 

When i'm unable to iff, firing on something i'm not sure of is ridiculous, I will always try and visually id, gather communication or pick up the situation on how he is behaving. This serves me and most everyone else well so why try and be ahead of the curve just for your own gain. It is all part of the learning curve, don't be that guy that doesn't care for anyone else because he only wants to hit the instawin button.

 

Another absurd post.

A) no that's not what happens all the time on even 104th. Most target areas don't get CAP. Idealistic.

B) I am not talking about contested areas in terms of air Usually. Ground yes.

C) So what about the totally absurd mixing of aircraft per side? I gues we are going to ignore this, and focus on A-G aircraft being basically defenseless.

D) My main point was actually about retards who lock up same side ground pounders in target areas of their own side for a long time, in jets with IFF interrogators, and then get surprised when they get a missile up their canopy. I am telling you, whenever this happens to me I am going to fire especially if someone is heading straight into me for a long time. No excuse to be doing that in an air superiority fighter to some slow/low fighter bomber. Some people just don't know what they're doing and are about to shoot me down.

[Frostie]

Another absurd post.

A) no that's not what happens all the time on even 104th. Most target areas don't get CAP. Idealistic.

B) I am not talking about contested areas in terms of air Usually. Ground yes.

C) So what about the totally absurd mixing of aircraft per side? I gues we are going to ignore this, and focus on A-G aircraft being basically defenseless.

D) My main point was actually about retards who lock up same side ground pounders in target areas of their own side for a long time, in jets with IFF interrogators, and then get surprised when they get a missile up their canopy. I am telling you, whenever this happens to me I am going to fire especially if someone is heading straight into me for a long time. No excuse to be doing that in an air superiority fighter to some slow/low fighter bomber. Some people just don't know what they're doing and are about to shoot me down.

 

The only absurd thing here is you trying to justify team killing as an acceptable reaction to seeing an aircraft approach you. Not sure if it is you but a guy did get banned the other day for multiple team kills one of which was on a target he saw appraoching from the enemies direction, so this was his cue to fire. Pure genius gaming for points.

 

The server is set up as is the owners wish, people like flying F15 v F15 so this ain't going away and plenty of people don't have a problem with this because they accept the risk and don't prowl around like a trigger happy gamer. There are unmixed missions but you have to wait for them to rotate, if you don't like this I suggest you go make your own server and then let that be a free for all, gl sorting the ensuing accusations, rants and arguments that will break out on a regular basis. Otherwise tailor it to your liking or alternatively go fly on a server that doesn't mix aircraft.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Frostie

[104th_Maverick]

C) So what about the totally absurd mixing of aircraft per side? I gues we are going to ignore this, and focus on A-G aircraft being basically defenseless.

 

 

There is nothing "totally absurd" about mixing aircraft on both sides, our server has been set up like this for years and most people who fly on the server do not have a problem with it, if you don't like the set up go and fly somewhere else, we don't force you to fly in our server.

 

If I can IFF in a HELICOPTER you can do it in an A-10, trying to justify teamkilling people just because aircraft are on both sides is stupid. There is more to Situational Awareness than just reading your RWR and firing on the first aircraft you see because it 'might' be a bandit. I have never once teamkilled anyone in a Gazelle and I have over 50 air to air kills in it!

 

There is also nothing "idealistic" about holding fire until you have IFF this is what you should be doing in all cases, you only fire on another aircraft if you are 100% sure its an enemy, not doing so will get you banned. A-10C or not, teamkillers get removed from our server, you have been warned!

[al531246]

I feel like bn880's point is being missed - when you're ground pounding in an A-10C you're never (or should never) gonna be close enough to visually identify the guy locking you. AFAIK the aircraft skins are the same for both teams anyway. In the A-10C there is no way to be 100% certain you're locking an enemy. The certitude is only as good as your judgement.

 

I've shot down about half a dozen Su-27's in my A-10C while in an active TA. About half have been friendly. The fact of the matter is when a '29' on the RWR is locking you up and buzzing right past in the exact maneuvers one would perform to score a kill you've gotta make a decision; do you give it the benefit of the doubt or shoot him down? If the situation permits I ask in chat for any friendly fighters in the TA to declare. If there's no response then I'm shooting that jet down. Simple as that.

 

Maverick, short of unmixing the the teams the best solution I can think of is to add a couple pictures, under the pretense of intel, of the enemy aircraft to each sides brief. That way one can identify aircraft via skins with more certainty.

i.e. BLU brief has a picture of a RED Su-27 and MiG-29 that shows the skins.

[104th_Maverick]

AFAIK the aircraft skins are the same for both teams anyway.

 

Not true, however you are correct about having a visual table to help with visually IDing aircraft, its something I am working on at present.

 

In the A-10C there is no way to be 100% certain you're locking an enemy.

 

You can at least be 80-90% sure... be on teamspeak with the other pilots flying in the TA, ask questions in the MP chat, read the mission briefing so you have an idea of where the enemy is coming from and where friendlies are coming from... all things that I do / have done when flying A2G in our server.

Obviously without a radar there is always going to be some guess work factored in however its not impossible to IFF and certainly not acceptable for anyone to just start shooting at the first fast jet they see. No fast jet pilot worth his salt is going to overshoot an enemy Striker without firing first, you'll know he is an enemy if he's locking you and has fired at you! If he has locked you and flown past and is not shooting at you or anyone else then there is no reason to suspect him of being an enemy. More than likely a new player to the sim who doesn't know its just bad beans to be scaring A2G pilots like that.

 

If the situation permits I ask in chat for any friendly fighters in the TA to declare.

 

Exactly what you should be doing!

Its not hard at all to quickly ask if there is any friendly fighters in the TA.. also if you see a fighter in the TA and he is not engaging you or anyone else then that is a dead give away that he is not an enemy. Even if he has locked you up constantly for a while, if he has flown right up to you and hasn't fired ... sometimes you have to use some common sense.

 

My problem with what BN is saying is his apparent refusal to even bother trying to IFF and instead just saying these suggestions are 'idealistic'.

 

I have flown A2G in our server for 100s of hours so I am no stranger to the challenges you guys face and I know first hand that IFF without radar is 100% possible, as I mentioned I also fly a lot in the Gazelle that has the same tools as the A-10C for IFF.. nothing apart from a RWR and I still manage not to kill any friendlies despite actually being where all the fighters are in heavy air to air airspace.

 

The bottom line is even if it ends up costing you your virtual life, if you are not sure ... you do not fire!

 

I've got a list a mile long of things I need to do however I will make the aircraft ID table a top priority for this week and do my best to standardise all the aircraft skins across our missions and post up some tables to help you guys out.

[bn880]

;3072516']There is nothing "totally absurd" about mixing aircraft on both sides' date=' our server has been set up like this for [b']years [/b]and most people who fly on the server do not have a problem with it, if you don't like the set up go and fly somewhere else, we don't force you to fly in our server.

 

If I can IFF in a HELICOPTER you can do it in an A-10, trying to justify teamkilling people just because aircraft are on both sides is stupid. There is more to Situational Awareness than just reading your RWR and firing on the first aircraft you see because it 'might' be a bandit. I have never once teamkilled anyone in a Gazelle and I have over 50 air to air kills in it!

 

There is also nothing "idealistic" about holding fire until you have IFF this is what you should be doing in all cases, you only fire on another aircraft if you are 100% sure its an enemy, not doing so will get you banned. A-10C or not, teamkillers get removed from our server, you have been warned!

So you think it's OK for someone to keep locking an A10 and approach it head on, in an air superiority fighter that gives them a clear indication that it's a friendly aircraft?

 

The reason I know I am right is because I see the majority disagree here. (remember majority picked Tump and Brexit.)

 

I am only talking about an extreme case where you can reasonably assume someone is an enemy. At some point what happens is considered an engagement. Continually locking a friendly in an aircraft that gives you IFF info is a clear violation of procedures IRL and should be on your server too.

 

I certainly dont like the mixed A/C on your server, that has been set up for years (just like asbestos was used for years), but it has other qualities which are appealing. Sometimes it does make me (and friends) go to another server if I want to be able to ID a threat though when I see it's shape.

 

You guys are actually clearly ignoring the sensible thing and the voice of more than 1 person, and as a result are not putting any pressure on ED to develop an acceptable set of aircraft either.

 

Perhaps you can explain in the first place why you are mixing aircraft on both sides? And how this outweighs the benefits of no mixing?

 

Carry on then.