Model Scaling and Visibilty

[xaoslaad]

not at all conditions

I gues those perfect clear conditions with no weather werent good enough.

[Kuky]

From an interview with a real A-10pilot on simhq

 

If he has such problems with a full blown military simulator that is most likely projected on a big surface then I have hard time give credit to people that say that the dificulties of object spotting in sim are true to real life.

 

The problem is only exaggerated with the unrealistic situational awarness the AI possess.

 

yes, I think this would be way easier thing to change, let AI be less "uber", you can never please all people no matter what you do and you can never compensate for different screen sizes and resolutions, people's actual eye sight, so to work on AI is far better option in my opinion.

 

I also think that changing the aircaft far LOD's could help also, ever notice that some aircraft actually do make dots at far distance... I think F-14 or MiG-31 does it. I don't think ED has yet looked into that avenue... and I think they should.

 

But anyway, I'm gonna keep out of this conversation now... let everyone chip in with what they thing, ED can see that way how people feel.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Kuky

[xaoslaad]

yes, I think this would be way easier thing to change, let AI be less "uber", you can never please all people no matter what you do and you can never compensate for different screen sizes and resolutions, people's actual eye sight, so to work on AI is far better option in my opinion.

 

I also think that changing the aircaft far LOD's could help also, ever notice that some aircraft actually do make dots at far distance... I think F-14 or MiG-31 does it. I don't think ED has yet looked into that avenue... and I think they should.

 

But anyway, I'm gonna keep out of this conversation now... let everyone chip in with what they thing, ED can see that way how people feel.

 

Not everyone can afford a 4k display, and a comparable graphics card to run it. If the solution to the problem is simply "buy a 4k" then that should be stated on the DCS website clearly under recommended requirements:

 

"High resolution 4k monitor, recommended for WVR combat"

 

Or something along those lines.

A 4k at reasonable sizes for a desk solves nothing. If anything, it's worse. And labels, especially the blue ones, when there are no text accompanied, are probably closer to reality as even they are very hard to see. The red ones are a little more glaring to my eye, so not quite as good/bad.

[shagrat]

Not talking about labels, but normal LOD, that definitely gets better with 4k...

Of course, as said, "buy 4k hardware" can't be the solution.

[Kuky]

I just tried to see how far I can see the An-26B. First I locked it with radar, and was looking when I would see it... I could see the faint dot at about 12nm but if I was too look for it (if I didn't know where to look) I wouldn't be able to see it guaranteed. It started becoming more noticeable at around 6nm, and at 5nm it was fairly visible (I think I could spot it if I was just looking for it without radar lock). So that's around 10km which is not that bad... and it was not against the sky, it was against the ground.

[shagrat]

What resolution? 1080p or 4k?

That would be a reasonable result. Now, check again with 720p when can you see the faint dot, there? If they haven't changed something, it should differ quite a bit.

[Kuky]

yes it's 4K res. How do you get 720p I wonder, when I set that it only uses small part of the monitor, not the whole monitor space.

[shagrat]

Oops, seems your monitor does not scale? Did you set it in the graphic card driver/control center? So both desktop and DCS should have the same resolution.

I'm not trying to be picky or troll here. The whole issue focus on this point. As long as your calculated plane size is smaller than the calculated pixel size DCS does not render anything. Result is the plane is "invisible" as long as it is smaller than a pixel... So the lower your resolution, the later the engine shows even one pixel...

[SharpeXB]

Zooming in is a cheat because when people do it they get FoV way smaller than what their real FoV actually is... it is equivalent to using binoculars.

Says the guy with a 58" 4K monitor! LOL

Is having a big monitor cheating too?

[cichlidfan]

In a combat environment, 'cheating' is another way of saying 'acquiring a tactical advantage'. :P

[shagrat]

Says the guy with a 58" 4K monitor! LOL

Is having a big monitor cheating too?

According to some peoples definition definitely yes... It seems.

So I'm cheating as well, OK mine is only 28", but tack sharp and G-Sync :D

[SharpeXB]

According to some peoples definition definitely yes... It seems.

So I'm cheating as well, OK mine is only 28", but tack sharp and G-Sync :D

I'm getting my 4K monitor this weekend. So I'll be in the cheaters club too. :-D

[xaoslaad]

I just tried to see how far I can see the An-26B. First I locked it with radar, and was looking when I would see it... I could see the faint dot at about 12nm but if I was too look for it (if I didn't know where to look) I wouldn't be able to see it guaranteed. It started becoming more noticeable at around 6nm, and at 5nm it was fairly visible (I think I could spot it if I was just looking for it without radar lock). So that's around 10km which is not that bad... and it was not against the sky, it was against the ground.

 

So you have a 4k 58" TV. I have a 4k 28" monitor. You don't think that maybe there might be a difference in what each of us can see? And I am not saying no one plays with a TV, but do you honestly think that is the more common scenario? I could probably bring my PC downstairs hook it up to the larger lower res TV and see lots of things I can't normally see on my monitor as well. It's like your answer to visibility problems is 'buy a 4k TV and attach it to your PC'. That is not reasonable for most people for both cash and space considerations.

[PFunk1606688187]

Zooming in is a cheat because when people do it they get FoV way smaller than what their real FoV actually is... it is equivalent to using binoculars.

 

Have you done the math or is this just a wild assumption, like the exaggerated ones you previously accused others of having?

 

From my time analyzing the FOV concept in sim racing the math for a true to life FOV is dependent based on eye position from the monitor and the size of the monitor itself.

[Kuky]

Oops, seems your monitor does not scale? Did you set it in the graphic card driver/control center? So both desktop and DCS should have the same resolution.

I'm not trying to be picky or troll here. The whole issue focus on this point. As long as your calculated plane size is smaller than the calculated pixel size DCS does not render anything. Result is the plane is "invisible" as long as it is smaller than a pixel... So the lower your resolution, the later the engine shows even one pixel...

 

yeah, I looked into display properties, and there is options to scale but either I don't know how to use it (I tried) or it doen't work. I still need to try this to see if your theory of larger pixels start showing objects closer in is right.

 

Says the guy with a 58" 4K monitor! LOL

Is having a big monitor cheating too?

 

No, I don't think having larger monitor is cheating, but you could say I am at advantage from those having small er monitors, but only if I fly online :D (which I don't for a while now)

 

In a combat environment, 'cheating' is another way of saying 'acquiring a tactical advantage'. :P

 

:megalol:

Edited April 21, 2015 by Kuky

[Kuky]

Have you done the math or is this just a wild assumption, like the exaggerated ones you previously accused others of having?

 

From my time analyzing the FOV concept in sim racing the math for a true to life FOV is dependent based on eye position from the monitor and the size of the monitor itself.

 

That is the math, to get propper (realistic) size of the image of the object in sim, you need to match in-game FoV with that of your monitor (calculated from your eye(s) distance from monitor and monitor width). Once you get right FoV and objects apear at right sizes, then to get more realistic visability (I think) would be to get all LOD's with proper lighting properties (specular / light reflection), I don't see what is wrong with that aproach.

[SharpeXB]

I don't see what is wrong with that aproach.

You mean other than that it would require a very large monitor, probably bigger than yours and a higher resolution than 4K?

[Kuky]

You mean other than that it would require a very large monitor, probably bigger than yours and a higher resolution than 4K?

 

hm, why need biger monitor? You can still use TrackIR (or similar device) to move view around. As long as objects apear at correct size and they have good lighting properties I think that's sufficient.

[SharpeXB]

hm, why need biger monitor? You can still use TrackIR (or similar device) to move view around. As long as objects apear at correct size and they have good lighting properties I think that's sufficient.

Given that the default FOV shows your whole cockpit then to portray that at 1:1 scale it then follows your monitor would need to be the same size as the cockpit. And larger if you're sitting a few feet away from it.

[Wolf Rider]

Zooming in is a cheat because when people do it they get FoV way smaller than what their real FoV actually is... it is equivalent to using binoculars.

 

 

That's the hard part there Kuky, and with great respect far off track...

 

The best FoV is the game/ sim's default FoV. Adjusting the FoV to wider or narrowerer creates a distortion... wider distorts to objects looking further away and going narrow makes them look closer than they really are.

This is something, again with respect, you off all people should be aware of.

 

You talk about "real FoV". isn't this just adjusting the default to a narrow 28 degrees or so?

 

"Zoom" does the same thing, (it doesn't magnify the image) it narrows the FoV from the default... so when you say it is cheating to zoom... you're in the same boat.

 

Also keep in mind, pilots did carry and use binoculars... though I doubt very much they flew with them strapped to their helmet/ goggles

- http://www.bestbinocularsreviews.com/blog/aircraft-binoculars-for-inside-a-plane-01/

- http://www.shutterstock.com/video/clip-1972840-stock-footage-atlantic-ocean-circa-world-war-ii-u-s-naval-pilot-in-cockpit-with-binoculars.html ?

Edited April 22, 2015 by Wolf Rider

[Kuky]

The best FoV is the game/ sim's default FoV.

 

ok... then how exactly does this same FoV create an object, say 10m long, 50m away, which in real life would span around 5° FoV, make 5° on your monitor? Your monitor (most average 22") spans only around 30° FoV (depends how far you sit), so this 5° aircraft would be 1/6 of the monitor width... quite large aye? but because sim FoV is way more than 30° (say 60°) then this aircratf would be only 1/2 of that (1/12 of the monitor width or 2.5° FoV). Get my point?

 

You can't use same FoV for different monitor size and seating distance, that is exactly what I am talking about, and me of all the people get this. :music_whistling:

 

So 1 size fits all FoV (sim's FoV) is not the best at all. The only reason it was set as it is is because then it gives the player kind of, natural FoV (so that you can see most of the cockpit in sim) but is not matching real FoV.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Kuky

[Wolf Rider]

Take a deep breath, slow down and re-read the post Kuky - and again with great respect to you, you've missed the point/s entirely

[Kuky]

ah well... maybe I missed the point... I'll re-read later again :)

[shagrat]

hm, why need biger monitor? You can still use TrackIR (or similar device) to move view around. As long as objects apear at correct size and they have good lighting properties I think that's sufficient.

You still "look through a straw", as peripheral vision is not possible.

The math is right, but we don't have projector domes like in a " big simulator" and currently the typical simulator setup has its limitations especially in terms of simulating realistic space/visibility relations.

It has been pointed out, that the human eye can quickly and precisely focus on a distant object or a near object, eliminating things like, motion blur (not the artificial one but the one for your heads movement), dots and speckles on the canopy, difficult lighting situation (to a certain limit) and while objects are moving even camouflage...

All this is not possible with a monitor in 2D.... And no current 3D "plastic vision" is not the solution, more a first step on a long road.

 

I tried the thingy, with resolution, quite a while ago, plus there is a very good thread from peterP about the distance modeling, FoV and resolution dependencies of the current engine.

 

I don't say smart scaling is perfect, but it is definitely a good compromise for current hardware setups and if you combine it with alpha blending and a good LOD it could help people on ALL rigs to at least have a chance to spot something at a realistic distance.

Edited April 22, 2015 by shagrat

[winz]

Also, resolution and FoV is not the single limitation.

You still have limited luminance, no real interaction between light and shiny surfaces. Limited contrast.

The problem that the whole world is basicaly a few repating textures..etc..etc.

 

Spotting targets IRL is hard, but it is hard for different reasons that it is in the sim.