Valve/HTC Vive Discussion

[S3NTRY11]

All we know is that Vive said their hardware won't be cheap and Oculus has suggested that want to sell their hardware near cost, and make their money on the software side. Oculus has said there is no point in selling their hardware without a lot of available software, so they have been agressively funding third parties and have created their own software development company.

 

This suggests that the Oculus could be significantly cheaper. If this hold true Vive better come up with a killer app to help sell their hardware.

 

Preorders for both unit should start before the end of this year, so it won't be long before we have accurate pricing.

I think Oculus will be THE option for the majority of simmers... We don't really need the extra tracking of the Vive, unless we're doing peripheral tracking, etc. Also, although they are the same res (?), I think the Rift will have the better optics - all speculation on my part.

 

Regarding twin-tracking for the Rift and overall cost, if you were going to go for that, by the time you added up the cost, and worked out the value, Vive may still come out on top, and as argued by myself, be the technically superior option in that case.

 

I'm still leaning towards the Vive for its versatility out of the box, rather than waiting to see whether the Rift peripherals are up to scratch. Not to mention that I'm not a fan of Oculus' walled-garden approach to software. And I'm not a huge fan of Facebook either, but that's entirely personal bias.

[S3NTRY11]

Regarding "killer app" for the Vive, they already have a "killer feature", and it's very obvious - a standing experience, and therefore anything that uses that feature well could be seen as a "killer app" - Hover Junkers for example.

[Chivas]

Regarding "killer app" for the Vive, they already have a "killer feature", and it's very obvious - a standing experience, and therefore anything that uses that feature well could be seen as a "killer app" - Hover Junkers for example.

 

Oculus has had standing demos for quite sometime, they just had people standing on 4 x4 mat. When you felt the edge of the mat you weren't supposed to go any farther. Oculus has stated you can move much farther, but weren't pushing it for safety reasons. So no Oculus isn't exclusively a sitting system, as other people and reviewers have suggested. That said I see no reason to have to walk around my cockpit. ;)

 

As far as price, I'm guessing if Oculus still plans to sell their hardware at cost and in the two to three hundred range then.

 

Oculus headset, one tracking unit, and an game pad input thrown in by Microsoft to get their foot in the VR door, will probably be in the three hundred dollar range.

 

Vive has stated their hardware won't be cheap, so I'm guessing their Vive Headset, 2 tracking units, and two wands will come in around five hundred dollar range.

 

I don't see the Oculus package of a Rift Headset, two tracking units, and two Touch inputs being higher than five hundred dollars.

 

That said, Price and Inputs don't matter that much to me, so I will buy the headset with the best specs, that supports the sims I want to fly.

 

The only tough choice that I might face, is that Vive states better specs than the Rift at preorder time, but there haven't been any flight sims that have completed or even started Vive implementation. :doh:

[vicx]

I want to develop DCS mods with Lighthouse tracking. Just started work on a proof of concept. All you have to do is imagine room size experiences that would make sense in DCS and you end up with more than a few ideas.

[S3NTRY11]

Oculus has had standing demos for quite sometime, they just had people standing on 4 x4 mat. When you felt the edge of the mat you weren't supposed to go any farther. Oculus has stated you can move much farther, but weren't pushing it for safety reasons. So no Oculus isn't exclusively a sitting system, as other people and reviewers have suggested. That said I see no reason to have to walk around my cockpit. ;)

 

As far as price, I'm guessing if Oculus still plans to sell their hardware at cost and in the two to three hundred range then.

 

Oculus headset, one tracking unit, and an game pad input thrown in by Microsoft to get their foot in the VR door, will probably be in the three hundred dollar range.

 

Vive has stated their hardware won't be cheap, so I'm guessing their Vive Headset, 2 tracking units, and two wands will come in around five hundred dollar range.

 

I don't see the Oculus package of a Rift Headset, two tracking units, and two Touch inputs being higher than five hundred dollars.

 

That said, Price and Inputs don't matter that much to me, so I will buy the headset with the best specs, that supports the sims I want to fly.

 

The only tough choice that I might face, is that Vive states better specs than the Rift at preorder time, but there haven't been any flight sims that have completed or even started Vive implementation. :doh:

 

Eagle Dynamics have begun Vive implementation.

 

Pretty sure Oculus have found a customer here.

 

I doubt that their twin-tracking system will touch the Vive, but that remains to be seen. Either way it really sounds like the Rift is the best option for what you're after.

Edited September 14, 2015 by S3NTRY11

[S3NTRY11]

I want to develop DCS mods with Lighthouse tracking. Just started work on a proof of concept. All you have to do is imagine room size experiences that would make sense in DCS and you end up with more than a few ideas.

Sounds great! Keep us posted!

[wormeaten]

All this advantages Vive Lighthouse have over OR is questionable simply by practical issue. How many of you have clean space in your room to use it without any real room obstacles? So more than 80% of us will using it in siting position anyway and never use this advantage. So better picture quality and lower price will be major factor for decision.

 

I want to develop DCS mods with Lighthouse tracking. Just started work on a proof of concept. All you have to do is imagine room size experiences that would make sense in DCS and you end up with more than a few ideas.

 

This is the only thing where Lighthouse can really prove its potential. If will be precise to map whole cockpit so you can use it with switching all switches inside. Waiting for first results vicx, good job.

[Chivas]

Eagle Dynamics have begun Vive implementation.

 

Pretty sure Oculus have found a customer here.

 

I doubt that their twin-tracking system will touch the Vive, but that remains to be seen. Either way it really sounds like the Rift is the best option for what you're after.

 

DCS received a Vive prototype a month or so ago. They've just started looking at the "possibility" of adding Vive support. So far indications are good. That said I doubt very much if that support could be implemented by the time the Vive is shipped, especially if the Vive does actually make the end of year release date. Hopefully DCS will be able to state which VR unit they were able to implement best, if Vive support is available by the time the Rift ships.

 

Reviewers have stated they've seen no difference in latencies etc between the Rift and Vive tracking systems. One may be better than the other, but if people see no difference, then its mute. Luckey stated they preferred the camera option because it was easier to track body movement, and facial expression.

 

I like what Vive is doing, and don't care which one is the better product. I've never been a fanboy of one product over another, like Nvidea/Amd gpus, and just buy the one that better suits my needs. I may sound like a Oculus fan boy, but I'm just countering the arguments made by those that can't say how good Vive is without making untrue statements about the Rift. Like... Vive is a full movement VR system, while the Rift is just a sitting experience.

[Chivas]

All this advantages Vive Lighthouse have over OR is questionable simply by practical issue. How many of you have clean space in your room to use it without any real room obstacles? So more than 80% of us will using it in siting position anyway and never use this advantage. So better picture quality and lower price will be major factor for decision.

 

 

 

This is the only thing where Lighthouse can really prove its potential. If will be precise to map whole cockpit so you can use it with switching all switches inside. Waiting for first results vicx, good job.

 

There are currently a lot of arguments, pros and cons, over which solution is better, Vive's Lighthouse Lasers or Oculus's Constellation Cameras. I'm not sure how well either will work with a virtual cockpit, or a home built cockpit. I suppose they can link the Wands, or Touch units movement to the mouse. if that's the case then IMHO the current Touch dexterity could be more immersive for throwing switches and turning dials than the Wand dexterity.

[S3NTRY11]

There are currently a lot of arguments, pros and cons, over which solution is better, Vive's Lighthouse Lasers or Oculus's Constellation Cameras. I'm not sure how well either will work with a virtual cockpit, or a home built cockpit. I suppose they can link the Wands, or Touch units movement to the mouse. if that's the case then IMHO the current Touch dexterity could be more immersive for throwing switches and turning dials than the Wand dexterity.

Anecdotally, the Vive has been repeatedly described as THE best tracking system by MANY.

 

Totally agree that Touch looks like the better peripheral solution (not sure how practical either peripheral on offer will be for cockpit use), but it is going to bump up the cost, and wont be available out of the box.

[Chivas]

Anecdotally, the Vive has been repeatedly described as THE best tracking system by MANY.

 

Totally agree that Touch looks like the better peripheral solution (not sure how practical either peripheral on offer will be for cockpit use), but it is going to bump up the cost, and wont be available out of the box.

 

Yes, BUT as I've said many time before, it was a very poor, and misleading comparison. They were comparing two Vive tracking units against one Rift camera, and preferred it because it allowed more freedom of movement, and immersion, completely ignoring, or were unaware of the fact that two Rift cameras could do the same movement with low latencies. Another factor to be aware of is the Vive laser system is much more expensive to produce than the Oculus Constellation system.

 

I agree about the respective inputs, and think a good Hotas systems should be more immersive for flight sims. UNLESS as I've suggested before that the Touch/Wand units could have some sort of docking quick connect/disconnect system so they could be used as a stick/throttle, and a clickable cockpit solution. That could be very immersive, but not so sure the tracking would be precise enough for decent stick response.

[S3NTRY11]

Yes, BUT as I've said many time before, it was a very poor, and misleading comparison. They were comparing two Vive tracking units against one Rift camera, and preferred it because it allowed more freedom of movement, and immersion, completely ignoring, or were unaware of the fact that two Rift cameras could do the same movement with low latencies. Another factor to be aware of is the Vive laser system is much more expensive to produce than the Oculus Constellation system.

 

No, they weren't misleading! How can comparing one prospective retail package against another (we know the Rift will be single-camera, no Touch on release) be misleading?

 

"This is what you'll get with the Vive, this is what you WON'T get with the Rift"

[Chivas]

No, they weren't misleading! How can comparing one prospective retail package against another (we know the Rift will be single-camera, no Touch on release) be misleading?

 

"This is what you'll get with the Vive, this is what you WON'T get with the Rift"

 

I partially agree, but few if any reviewers stated they were reviewing the respective initial release packages, they were comparing prototype systems, suggesting that Oculus was only developing a seated experience. That's definitely misleading. Release package specs, and actual release dates are still an unknown. In most cases you can almost guarantee hardware/software delays.

[S3NTRY11]

I partially agree, but few if any reviewers stated they were reviewing the respective initial release packages, they were comparing prototype systems, suggesting that Oculus was only developing a seated experience. That's definitely misleading. Release package specs, and actual release dates are still an unknown. In most cases you can almost guarantee hardware/software delays.

 

If reviewers were saying that, then Oculus only have themselves to blame. They pushed the "seated experience" line for a LONG time. In fact they only really changed their tune when, you guessed it, the Vive came on the scene, and stole some of their thunder. Not to mention that what's in the current prototype systems is ostensibly what will be coming at retail.

 

The fact that the Rift comes with a controller is a key indicator that they are still mainly focused on a seated experience.

 

Does this mean the Rift can't do a standing experience? No. But it does mean it's misleading to say reviewers have been misleading, or that the Rift will be as good as an experience as the Vive when it's initially released.

 

If I were Oculus, I'd be smashing Touch into production ASAP. But that will drive the cost up, and the content just wont be ready in time.

 

Not to mention the standing experience in the Rift is going to be crappy ;) /trollol

[shagrat]

...as interesting, as either the reVive or Rift will be for a standing/walking experience in Egoshooters or Roleplaying/Adventures, for flight simming we would actually need a seated experience.

 

Now, the biggest drawback for both systems from my point of view is basically the inability to see your hands while you might try to hit a certain key/Combo not mapped on your HOTAS or grab the mouse/controller/wand/nunchuck whatever to interact with the clickable cockpit.

 

Even with a few physical panels or a full blown HomeCockpit just a quick glance to orientate your hand to a physical flipswitch will be a challenge?

 

As I do not intend to stand inside my cockpit the most important add-on would be something like Control VR to move and represent your upper body, arms, hands and individual fingers in the virtual cockpit... If they can add a haptic feedback for touching switches and buttons, this would be Sim-Heaven!!!

 

Just the need to grab for any controller while flying the plane to flip a switch is the biggest constraint.

[Chivas]

If reviewers were saying that, then Oculus only have themselves to blame. They pushed the "seated experience" line for a LONG time. In fact they only really changed their tune when, you guessed it, the Vive came on the scene, and stole some of their thunder. Not to mention that what's in the current prototype systems is ostensibly what will be coming at retail.

 

The fact that the Rift comes with a controller is a key indicator that they are still mainly focused on a seated experience.

 

Does this mean the Rift can't do a standing experience? No. But it does mean it's misleading to say reviewers have been misleading, or that the Rift will be as good as an experience as the Vive when it's initially released.

 

If I were Oculus, I'd be smashing Touch into production ASAP. But that will drive the cost up, and the content just wont be ready in time.

 

Not to mention the standing experience in the Rift is going to be crappy ;) /trollol

 

 

Oculus has been doing standup demos with dual tracking long before anyone even knew Valve was bringing a headset to the market. Oculus stopped "advertising" but didn't stop working on a better solution, especially for the commercial market, but they also understood it would only be a small part of the consumer VR headset market, with safety issues, ease of setup issues, and there were few if any software's in development for that kind of movement. That said I'm sure Vive will have atleast one decent movement sim/game bundled with their headset.

 

Its very difficult to say which solution will be better until they hit the consumer market. In my long experience many reviewers are lacking in overall knowledge of the subject, or have an agenda, which can be very misleading. The VR developers are talking about having VR stations at places like BestBuy, so it should be possible to make a much better decision on which hardware will be better for our particular needs.

[S3NTRY11]

As I do not intend to stand inside my cockpit the most important add-on would be something like Control VR to move and represent your upper body, arms, hands and individual fingers in the virtual cockpit... If they can add a haptic feedback for touching switches and buttons, this would be Sim-Heaven!!!

I have a distinct feeling that ControlVR are on shaky ground, if not dead, which would be unfortunate, but rest assured, something like it will pop up utilising haptics with Lighthouse and/or Constellation, and it is going to be the best thing to hit flight sims since VR itself.

Edited September 16, 2015 by S3NTRY11
typo

[S3NTRY11]

I find their is no need to see the keyboard while flying in the rift. It's all about retraining your self to the new quirks of this technology. Also having a volair sim pit or similar makes a huge difference also. Make your pit 1/1 scale to what you perceive in vr, aka the mfds the proper distance and all is well. Will be a great winter as long as 2.0 or the new vr devices don't get delayed......

 

Someone could make some serious coin by building a set of 1:1 pits, or a modular system that can let people print their own pits.

 

It's always interesting to read people's fresh VR experienes:

experiencing-htc-vive

[Chivas]

I never read the short statement or watched the video in the Oculus blog until now, about their purchase of Pebbles-interfaces. I think Vive's laser system is great, but wonder if this tech may be why Luckey and company might be more interested in optical tracking over laser. Combining inside/out, outside/in, optical tracking. This tech could eventually work very well for people with pits, as the Pebbles tech also tracks depth, so the system would know exactly where your hands are within the cockpit environment. No glove or Touch input required. Should also eventually work for those that need to see their keyboard, hotas systems.

 

https://www.oculus.com/en-us/blog/pebbles-interfaces-joins-oculus/

Edited September 17, 2015 by Chivas

[S3NTRY11]

I never read the short statement or watched the video in the Oculus blog until now, about their purchase of Pebbles-interfaces. I think Vive's laser system is great, but wonder if this tech may be why Luckey and company might be more interested in optical tracking over laser. Combining inside/out, outside/in, optical tracking. This tech could eventually work very well for people with pits, as the Pebbles tech also tracks depth, so the system would know exactly where your hands are within the cockpit environment. No glove or Touch input required. Should also eventually work for those that need to see their keyboard, hotas systems.

 

https://www.oculus.com/en-us/blog/pebbles-interfaces-joins-oculus/

 

So basically... Kinect / Leapmotion? :wink:

 

How would this work for seeing your keyboard/hotas? I don't see how that would work, but I might be missing something.

 

If this is the direction Oculus are heading in, this not a good thing, in my opinion.

I mean in the specific sense, this means that to use your hands, you have to be looking at them, which may not always be practical, say for example, if you're in a virtual cockpit...

In a broader sense, the problems with this type of tracking, as previously stated, are the problems with Kinect, and all image-based tracking systems. Not to mention the complete lack of feedback from gloves, or peripherals like Touch.

 

I might eat my words one day, but the more I see of Oculus tech, the more I'm convinced Vive are heading in the best direction, and that Oculus are painting themselves into a corner with their tracking system. Particularly for the more "virtually tangible" interactive experiences.

 

Ultimately, I would say the winner will be those that can cherry-pick the best tech from VR as a whole. And that wont happen until at least gen2. Well, perhaps I shouldn't say "winner", because it's all pretty great for us consumers, so we're the winners, really.

 

All-in-all, time will tell.

And its always interesting to see who's being acquired by whom. Thanks for sharing, Chivas.

[S3NTRY11]

You can make things from the real world appear inside the virtual one, like user's body or the keyboard.

 

Yes, but how? It looks like it is tracking IR or similar, which would not work so well for something that is ambient temp?

[Python]

Nice idea, but I doubt we could get such a thing working with current tech.

[Chivas]

Nice idea, but I doubt we could get such a thing working with current tech.

 

Exactly why Oculus is creating new tech, and buying companies that are creating new tech. This will continue until VR/AR is the size of sunglasses, and beyond.

[Rogue Trooper]

I think the HOTAS concept needs to be expanded (button wise) to see us through the early years of VR headsets.

[Chivas]

So basically... Kinect / Leapmotion? :wink:

 

How would this work for seeing your keyboard/hotas? I don't see how that would work, but I might be missing something.

 

If this is the direction Oculus are heading in, this not a good thing, in my opinion.

I mean in the specific sense, this means that to use your hands, you have to be looking at them, which may not always be practical, say for example, if you're in a virtual cockpit...

In a broader sense, the problems with this type of tracking, as previously stated, are the problems with Kinect, and all image-based tracking systems. Not to mention the complete lack of feedback from gloves, or peripherals like Touch.

 

I might eat my words one day, but the more I see of Oculus tech, the more I'm convinced Vive are heading in the best direction, and that Oculus are painting themselves into a corner with their tracking system. Particularly for the more "virtually tangible" interactive experiences.

 

Ultimately, I would say the winner will be those that can cherry-pick the best tech from VR as a whole. And that wont happen until at least gen2. Well, perhaps I shouldn't say "winner", because it's all pretty great for us consumers, so we're the winners, really.

 

All-in-all, time will tell.

And its always interesting to see who's being acquired by whom. Thanks for sharing, Chivas.

 

I have no idea how it all will work, or what consumer version the new tech will be enabled, if at all, but it appears that the HMD optics are mapping the hands. If they can map the hands they can map anything like a pit, or keyboard. External optics cameras will map the body, hands, and facial expressions. As a side note, rumour has it that the new Gear VR smartphones will have depth sensors.

 

Yes, we are the winners, as it appears that VR has almost unlimited monies being thrown at the tech required to make it happen. Not to mention that Oculus latest statements suggest they are still planning to sell their tech near cost to make VR as affordable as possible. Although that isn't good news for any of their competition, and could stunt some of the competition. If the competition doesn't price match, they have no choice but to develop better tech to compete, which won't be easy since Oculus has a huge highly talented VR work force, and have bought quite a number of companies that are VR relevant. BUT it only takes one man to come up with the right idea.:)