Real pilots chime in...

[TickJackson]

Hi All,

 

I was wondering if anyone out there flies real airplanes? I have a commercial/multi-engine and instrument rating and found the Mig-21 VERY hard to fly. If you can land this thing on the sim I'd fly with any of you any day.

I've noticed I have to come in shallow and fast. Most of the flight simming I've done is on FSX and mostly commercial aircraft. Flying delta wings is a whole new can of worms.

If you are looking for a good text on aerodynamics look no further than Aerodynamics for naval aviators. Its pretty dense but will give you a solid foundation on how these things work. Link here:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faa.gov%2Fregulations_policies%2Fhandbooks_manuals%2Faviation%2Fmedia%2F00-80t-80.pdf&ei=6agaVcDFAomyggTs6YFQ&usg=AFQjCNFXCSGy_ocTKzDRrS25SmZJN9cN1w&sig2=fjhpP7pVZRoi2rDodWmxuQ&bvm=bv.89381419,d.eXY

 

This is the bible of aerodynamics.

 

Thanks

[Kearf]

Thank you very much for your shared found !

 

The landing is something you have to get used too, but as long as you fly fast(350-400kmh) and shallow and get the right "feeling" to "flare" (i hope thats the right word), you can do it as easy as in any other plane.

I had also a very hard time at the beginning, but after about 20 landings i would say i can land it quite safely under normal circumstances. Its something one has to get used to.

 

Hopefully you enjoy the ride as much as i do, its one of my favorite planes now, since i had the opportunity to learn it as deep as its provided in this simulation.

[Justin Case]

Here's a landing tutorial i made, it's in Swedish though so you might as well listen to some music instead.

Practice practice practice...

 

With 3000 hours on the 737 I find the MiG-21 quite believable in the "normal" flight regimes, can't say too much about the extremes though.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Justin Case

[cichlidfan]

Hi All,

 

I was wondering if anyone out there flies real airplanes? I have a commercial/multi-engine and instrument rating and found the Mig-21 VERY hard to fly. If you can land this thing on the sim I'd fly with any of you any day.

 

Just an FYI.

 

This is one of the members of the dev team for the Mig-21.

 

 

http://www.leatherneck-sim.com/team/

[TickJackson]

Flaring is not something you want to do in a delta wing aircraft. Flaring means entering ground effect and bleeding off airspeed below stall speed then settling down on the runway. In a delta wing you FLY the aircraft to the runway, if you flare the Mig your nose will be too high and the stall will kill you.

[Toxic]

Hi All,

 

I was wondering if anyone out there flies real airplanes? I have a commercial/multi-engine and instrument rating and found the Mig-21 VERY hard to fly. If you can land this thing on the sim I'd fly with any of you any day.

I've noticed I have to come in shallow and fast. Most of the flight simming I've done is on FSX and mostly commercial aircraft. Flying delta wings is a whole new can of worms.

If you are looking for a good text on aerodynamics look no further than Aerodynamics for naval aviators. Its pretty dense but will give you a solid foundation on how these things work. Link here:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faa.gov%2Fregulations_policies%2Fhandbooks_manuals%2Faviation%2Fmedia%2F00-80t-80.pdf&ei=6agaVcDFAomyggTs6YFQ&usg=AFQjCNFXCSGy_ocTKzDRrS25SmZJN9cN1w&sig2=fjhpP7pVZRoi2rDodWmxuQ&bvm=bv.89381419,d.eXY

 

This is the bible of aerodynamics.

 

Thanks

 

It does take some time to get used to. I have a lot of ratings too but we fly training aircraft. Cessna's and Piper products. This is a gen 3 FIGHTER. It's a rocket with little tiny wings. Once you get the hang of it, the mig21 is a pleasure to fly! :pilotfly: :thumbup:

[TickJackson]

Hey Toxic,

 

I used to fly, most of my training was in pipers and diamond aircraft. I had a job fling a navajo but wasn't making enough money. Are you a CFI ?

Another thing Ive noticed on the HSI of the Mig is I seem to get reverse sensing when I tune into a "VOR" (RBSN), I'm pretty sure the needle is facing the right way.

[Justin Case]

Flaring is not something you want to do in a delta wing aircraft. Flaring means entering ground effect and bleeding off airspeed below stall speed then settling down on the runway. In a delta wing you FLY the aircraft to the runway, if you flare the Mig your nose will be too high and the stall will kill you.

No it won't unless you let it kill you, flaring doesn't always mean stalling.

[X-Alt]

Hi All,

 

I was wondering if anyone out there flies real airplanes? I have a commercial/multi-engine and instrument rating and found the Mig-21 VERY hard to fly. If you can land this thing on the sim I'd fly with any of you any day.

I've noticed I have to come in shallow and fast. Most of the flight simming I've done is on FSX and mostly commercial aircraft. Flying delta wings is a whole new can of worms.

If you are looking for a good text on aerodynamics look no further than Aerodynamics for naval aviators. Its pretty dense but will give you a solid foundation on how these things work. Link here:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faa.gov%2Fregulations_policies%2Fhandbooks_manuals%2Faviation%2Fmedia%2F00-80t-80.pdf&ei=6agaVcDFAomyggTs6YFQ&usg=AFQjCNFXCSGy_ocTKzDRrS25SmZJN9cN1w&sig2=fjhpP7pVZRoi2rDodWmxuQ&bvm=bv.89381419,d.eXY

 

This is the bible of aerodynamics.

 

Thanks

The MiG is actually quite forgiving of an aircraft from my experience. You get quite a feeling of a very good instantaneous turn rate, but as you continue, it eases up and signals the time to start loosening up on the stick for most maneuvers. So with that said, compared to the more modern fighters, it's a flying brick rocket with so little surface area on the delta wings. Even so, with the lack of response at lower speeds, you get the instinct of pulling hard, and the 21's control surfaces fight back. The 21 never seems to succumb to high G Forces that are so prevalent on the 4th Gen FC3 aircraft. So all in all, it's quite a controllable aircraft, but it certainly isn't going to turn with the best. Also, use the stupid fast acceleration and deceleration to your advantage in all scenarios, the only thing that even rivals it is the MiG-23.

 

 

Anyways, my basic set of advice is to loosen up with the stick, remember that you'll get minimal return in pushing hard on the control surfaces, and that the throttle is your savior when it comes to getting more control. When coming in to land, I come in at a ridiculously low AGL, perhaps 75m, although there are probably much more efficient ways to conserve speed at higher altitudes, but nonetheless keep it around 370 once you lower your throttle to the landing preset, flaps extended at the short range radar array, and around 5 degrees pitch up as you approach what I perceive to be around 10m, if you flare too high or early, either your gear won't retract later from the aforementioned ground effect, or you'll get the famous bouncing effect that even larger aircraft tend to experience, and if feels off, just add that little burst of throttle and hopefully all goes well.

 

(Keep in mind I have minimal sim experience with the larger commercial aircraft you fly, and while I certainly don't have any with real life aircraft, hence my likely outlandish methods of getting the 21 on the ground, anything to help, I guess)

 

X-Alt

Edited March 31, 2015 by X-Alt

[Art-J]

Another thing Ive noticed on the HSI of the Mig is I seem to get reverse sensing when I tune into a "VOR" (RBSN), I'm pretty sure the needle is facing the right way.

 

Unless You specify which needle You're talking about these two sentences above sound a bit contradictory (or puzzling, at least) :D.

 

With no "to" and "from" flags available, the yellow needle on the HSI does indeed get a bit crazy at times. However, as long as You make sure the course needle on the course indicator is turned towards the RSBN beacon and You fly towards the selected radial at an acute angle, the yellow needle on the HSI will guide You just fine.

[malcheus]

I get your sentiment, I play a lot of airplane sims, and I could nail pretty much every landing in most sims, especially FSX. The most difficult landings I experienced were in IL2: battle of stalingrad.

But then I started with the mig21, and I had to re-learn how to land.

It really takes some getting used to, you have to nose-up pretty badly; almost completely obscuring sight of the runway, and then very softly touch down.

And keep quite a lot of throttle on; if you cut the throttle, you will become a brick.

[xxJohnxx]

And keep quite a lot of throttle on; if you cut the throttle, you will become a brick.

 

That's a bit of a problem with the sim version. You can't really do that in the real version because an interlocking mechanism prevents that.

Basically you don't want to get the RPM too low, because if it does, there is not enough bleed air generated for the BLS (blown flaps). If it cuts out because of too low RPM you will see a sudden loss of lift, causing the aircraft to drop down onto the runway quit hard, so you don't want that to happen.

[JNASova]

Simply, whatever you do you have to read the manual. Someone has long struggled to determine how certain things work. Their experiences and findings shared with us through the guide. Follow the instructions and you will see how everything will fall into place. A little exercise and MANUAL! Never seen better manual than DCS MiG 21 BiS manual.

[SDsc0rch]

i think this is hilarious - the thread is asking for real pilots to chime in

 

and look what we got

 

lol

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

You gotta unlearn a lot of those straight wing habits and even Western habits for the Fishbed. I like to fly it down onto the runway, practically, and only given the slightest flares. Never chop the throttle, this isn't a 172 or Cherokee, after all. You also need to be watching your VSI closely and make sure you don't bust about 4m/s in descent.

 

Drop your gear and flaps to the T/O position downwind below 600km/h. Then flip the nose gear setting from "NAVIG" to "LDG." I'd actually recommend doing this on take off so you don't even have to worry about this step when it comes time to land. Remember to return the gear handle to the neutral position, too! Give yourself a nice long downwind leg. Set up your base at around 450km/h, drop your flaps to the landing position, and start your final at 420km/h. Never drop below 360km/h on final. This is probably the most important part of the approach. Use gentle rudder and stick input to line yourself up with the runway ASAP. The Fishbed doesn't do slow, so once you're over the fence you've really committed to whatever your heading is for touchdown. Start watching your VSI when you get near the fence. Once you're over it, shoot for about 2m/s in vertical speed. Now, you give it the most gentle of flares. You know how you practically let an airplane begin a Lazy-8 on its own? I'm talking that kind of gentle.You basically want to just reduce your descent down to the appropriate sink-rate. Bump bump! You've touched down! Let the nose come down as gently as possible and start applying brakes. If it's a short runway, pop the chute. Either way, the Fishbed does actually stop pretty short.

[xxJohnxx]

Set up your base at around 450km/h, drop your flaps to the landing position, and start your final at 420km/h. Never drop below 360km/h on final.

 

I personally wouldn't do that. 360km/h is the speed on which the blown layer/blown flaps system turns on/off. Flying at this speed can cause the system to turn on and off sporadically causing changes in lift.

 

The recommended speed for final approach is 320km/h, which is easily doable if you are at the right weight.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

I personally wouldn't do that. 360km/h is the speed on which the blown layer/blown flaps system turns on/off. Flying at this speed can cause the system to turn on and off sporadically causing changes in lift.

 

The recommended speed for final approach is 320km/h, which is easily doable if you are at the right weight.

 

I like keeping it that high on final just keep it more robust in handling. It bleeds speed quick enough.

[VincentLaw]

I'm not a real pilot, but I have to correct a couple of things here:

 

Flaring is not something you want to do in a delta wing aircraft. Flaring means entering ground effect and bleeding off airspeed below stall speed then settling down on the runway. In a delta wing you FLY the aircraft to the runway, if you flare the Mig your nose will be too high and the stall will kill you.

This is wrong. Flaring means pulling up before touchdown to reduce your descent rate. You will enter ground effect on landing no matter what. Delta wings tend to have a higher stall angle of attack than low sweep wings, so if you managed to stall your MiG-21 just above runway then you would tail strike before your landing gear touched down.

 

The recommended speed for final approach is 320km/h, which is easily doable if you are at the right weight.

This is too slow. Both the landing tutorial and manual say not to drop below 340 km/h until just before touchdown. The MiG-21 has poor look-down visibility so if you get too slow you will not be able to see the runway during your approach.

 

Basically to answer the OP: Landing the MiG-21 gets easy once you learn to keep your speed from falling below 340 km/h on approach. Don't be afraid to use the drogue parachute to slow down.

[xxJohnxx]

This is too slow. Both the landing tutorial and manual say not to drop below 340 km/h until just before touchdown. The MiG-21 has poor look-down visibility so if you get too slow you will not be able to see the runway during your approach.

 

Yes, 320km/h is quit slow, but acording to my sources, 320-330km/h was the speed the East German MiG-21s used back in the day.

 

Ofcourse, 340km/h is a good speed when you are a bit on the heavy side. Generally nothing will go wrong between 320-340km/h.

[Toxic]

Hey Toxic,

 

I used to fly, most of my training was in pipers and diamond aircraft. I had a job fling a navajo but wasn't making enough money. Are you a CFI ?

Another thing Ive noticed on the HSI of the Mig is I seem to get reverse sensing when I tune into a "VOR" (RBSN), I'm pretty sure the needle is facing the right way.

 

yep! you do have to treat this aircraft completely different than any straight winged aircraft. Join us sometime on the 104th TS server or the ACG TS server and we'll fly together sometime! I'ld be happy to show you some techniques with it. :pilotfly:

 

As to the RBSN reverse sensing you got to make sure the OBS is pointed in the right direction, and the RBSN/ARC switch is in the RSBN direction. When flying with the RSBN I mainly just use the RMI needles on the HSI

[Justin Case]

If you treat the thicker end of the CDI needle like you would a course needle on a western HSI, the CDI "fly left" or "fly right" indications work as you would expect.

Though the flight directors only work correctly when you set the CDI the opposite way...

[iFoxRomeo]

...Then flip the nose gear setting from "NAVIG" to "LDG." I'd actually recommend doing this on take off so you don't even have to worry about this step when it comes time to land. Remember to return the gear handle to the neutral position, too! ...

There is no such nosewheel setting you are talking about. This is the RSBN/PRMG operating mode selector(descend/navigation/landing).

There is a nosewheel brake lever which activates or deactivates the nosewheel brake. And actually you have to switch the nosewheel brake lever to the horizontal position before takeoff.

 

 

The gear handle has to be kept in the down position until taxiing to the parking area.

 

 

 

Fox

[BeachAV8R]

Real pilot here. Roughly 8,000 hours split between 1,500 piston, 4000 jet, and 2,500 turboprop. I've been flying Citations and King Airs for the last 20 years, so keep that in mind when you read my opinion. Both the King Air and Citation have straight wings that favor low speed handling and short takeoff/landing performance at the penalty of a rougher cruise ride and a slower Mmo (Mach .755). I've have a smattering of hours in some swept wing jets like the Beechcraft, but the general consensus is, the more wing sweep you get, the more care and finesse a plane requires. You can be a bit sloppy with a straight wing Citation, but a Lear or Hawker requires more attention to things like your Vref speed and the penalty for getting slow is more severe.

 

A few things about the MiG-21 that make me feel that they have a pretty good replication of the real difficulty is the high wing sweep, the relatively small area of the delta wing resulting in a high wing loading, and the narrowly set landing gear all combine to make the MiG-21 a fairly "dynamic" aircraft on landing. Throw in relatively high Vref speeds due to the aforementioned bleed off system and you have a squirrely airplane that requires a lot of attention, adherence to the numbers, and one that requires the plane to be flown all the way through the rollout. As most of you have noticed, flying this thing to 10' above the runway, dropping the throttle to idle and holding it off just doesn't work. You have to fly the airplane all the way to touchdown before reducing the throttle.

 

Though I have a lot of jet time, I don't have a lot of jet time in high wing loading, narrow gear aircraft. The closest I could come is maybe my time in the Beechjet..and the feeling there was definitely more of balancing on a ball than the much wider stance and straight wing of the Citations.

 

This video is pretty demonstrative of how active the MiG-21 is on landing - with breathtaking speed of how it unfolds. Basically, they are driving the airplane onto the "runway" (in this case a road) and while they set up a landing attitude, it isn't your traditional flare and hold off (which you can do if you have plenty of runway and can keep some throttle in).

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etnLMGurZD8

 

BeachAV8R

[WildBillKelsoe]

Landing the Bis is one of two types I learned with this sim:

1- type 1, the flary (?) type

2- type 2, the crashy (??) type.

 

I can say exclusively that to bleed off speed quickly the chute and speedbrake is your friend. I come in at 350 Km/h and try to establish the lowest possible vertical descent, so that in a regular A320, I would be on speed (2/2), in the Bis, I'm almost 3 red on PAPI. When the runway threshold crosses canopy then establish a 3 point attitude, open speedbrake and settle down, then chute.

 

Does that mean I'm a good pilot :D

[BeachAV8R]

Does that mean I'm a good pilot :D

Only the good ones take off with the canopy still up.

 

Not that I'd ever do that... :music_whistling: