My UH-1H/V Pit....

[jrsteensen]

Hey Warhog, thanks for all the ideas.

 

I've been looking at my tooling really hard. I'm now on the fence about my tooling/CNC plans of comparing bang for my buck. I can do a 31"x31" Work area router that will do up to .125 aluminum and 2.5" acrylic plate and doing PCBs which would allow me to do all my panels and structures on it for a fraction of the cost of converting my G0704 to CNC....I would eventually convert the mill, but this gives me a big work area for the bulk of work. (The only structure I wouldn't be able to fit is the main instrument panel until I extend the router a bit more on the Y axis - would need to extend it to 48, which may be a good idea anyways to order material at 2x4 feet.)

 

Now I am absolutely torn...haha. Would appreciate anybodies input.

[jrsteensen]

If I skip CNCing the mill in lieu of purchasing the CNC router, it will leave me with enough cash for a 30 gal compressor, grinders, paint guns, 36" sheet metal brake, and a bunch of other odds and ends.

 

Another benefit of this thing is I will be able to CNC molds to be able to make all my knobs in one shot - I need to get my hands on as many real knobs as possible to borrow. I got permission from my boss to use our digitizer after-hours to 3D scan all of them. Woo.

Edited May 18, 2015 by jrsteensen

[Boltz]

Check the accuracy of the router compared to mill. Typically a mill has much less backlash and runout in the spindle which is very important for engraving small text and PCBs.

Starting a pit build from scratch I would buy a medium size CNC router like you have found. I think it would be more useful than the much smaller table on a vertical mill. They parts that cannot be cut on a router will only be larger metal parts which could most likely be cut manually on the G0704.

 

When you already have precision tools like mills, you only really need CNC for engraving and nearly all of that is done as 2D on sheet stock.

 

I would go with the router but only if it is a good quality one with a large community. I'm not sure how good it will be if it costs less than a G0704 CNC conversion

[jrsteensen]

Accuracy on the router is .003" to .005". I'm thinking doing the CNC router, then adding a DRO to the mill would do absolutely plenty for me, though I was looking forward to being able to thread round parts on the mill with the 4th axis.

[rocketeer]

Putting a small resistor on pots will clean their input up.

 

Ragtop, thanks for the suggestion. Have you tried it? How much resistance to add, which leg to add to, how stable it became after adding it? if this works then I don't have to buy a few more dozen encoders to replace all my pots.

[Warhog]

Hey Warhog, thanks for all the ideas.

 

I've been looking at my tooling really hard. I'm now on the fence about my tooling/CNC plans of comparing bang for my buck. I can do a 31"x31" Work area router that will do up to .125 aluminum and 2.5" acrylic plate and doing PCBs which would allow me to do all my panels and structures on it for a fraction of the cost of converting my G0704 to CNC....I would eventually convert the mill, but this gives me a big work area for the bulk of work. (The only structure I wouldn't be able to fit is the main instrument panel until I extend the router a bit more on the Y axis - would need to extend it to 48, which may be a good idea anyways to order material at 2x4 feet.)

 

Now I am absolutely torn...haha. Would appreciate anybodies input.

 

My choice of machines has always been based on proven accuracy, strength and the quality of the parts used to build it. I look at the chinese stuff and often I have to run away fast and give myself a couple of smacks in the back of the head. They can make their CNC machines look absolutely fabulous and then they throw a price at you that you would be nuts to not accept. Problem is most of the time its crap. But it is so hard to pass up on a machine that looks that good. How could it be anything but great. :P And when the machine ends up being a dud, what are you going to do, sue them. They don't give a shit as there's NOTHING you can do to them.

 

So my first recommendation is go with American or German made equipment. American CNC is usually strong and accurate and generally good quality throughout as long is its not made in China and rebranded as made in the U.S.A. German CNC is of course German which translates into $$$$$$$. Need I say more.:music_whistling: Nobody can afford their stuff. Too bad as it is great.

 

You don't need a large machine to build your cockpit. I have made everything on a TAIG CNC mill with a working table size of 4" x 7" x 5"(z). You do need accuracy if you want to make everything yourself. Circuit boards are a high priority item and they can demand consistent accuracy at .0005". Here is an example of my machines best possible accuracy. Just consider the size of the LED in the foreground for scale. I was just blown away. I didn't think it could do it although the company says .0005" as a best case. So the specs for my mill as stated on their web site are .0005" and a stepper resolution of 0.000125".

 

 

I'm not trying to blow my own horn here. I want you to see just what is possible and what you should be getting when all is said and done. If you can't get a cnc machine to do this then don't buy it. These are just a few of the many components you will need to make during your adventure into cockpit building. That why these things cost so much. You can buy cheap motors or controllers etc but it will catch up with you and limit you as to what you can manufacture. Then what was the point in spending all that money.

 

My last recommendation is don't penny pinch when buying a CNC machine. My total expenditure 10 years ago was $3500.00 just for the machine and the controller. And today its running as if it was still new and I run it a lot! That's also why you spend so much initially. Its built like a brick shit house.

 

I also have 8" x 10" metal lathe and a full size manual mill. For this project I would estimate that the manual mill gets used 5% of the time. Virtually everything I do is on my CNC mill.

 

So tell me more about this router. I am concerned with the specs they gave you. Unless it costs a small fortune you generally don't see that kind of accuracy as they are generally used for wood and softer materials.

 

Why don't you have a look through my picture site. http://s221.photobucket.com/user/MRAR15/library/?sort=3&page=1 I've been keeping a photo journal "so to speak" on my cockpit build. It will give you a very good idea of what you have to build and the size of the components that you will be dealing with. Then think about why a 31" router is necessary. I know how costly this machine can be. It's a major purchase to be sure. I also know their are a lot of vendors who will tell you just what you want to hear but it ends up being quite different once your up and running and your machine can't cut a simple PCB. So any time you want to discuss this in more detail I'm available.

[jrsteensen]

Still chewing on your post - so I'll only ask one question for that so far: How are you doing the large components for the structures? I am not much of a craftsman by hand for sheet metal honestly. I'm considering doing the X-Carve 1000mm machine for a CNC router. I had the original Shapeoko, which this is a much improved version of. I was impressed with it's ability to do PCBs (fairly low tolerance ones - anything high tolerance, I'll have professionally fabbed for 10-15 bucks for three boards), .064 aluminum, and acrylic parts.

 

Finally, here is a updated layout based on some acquired real dimensions from two different birds. Once I get the overall model fairly squared away, I'll identify all the dimensions I am iffy about, and go measure the bird at the Air and Space museum.

 

[Warhog]

First off let me say, that is an excellent rendering... very impressive.:thumbup: So I expect doing all the detailed drawing thats needed won't be an issue for you. That is really most of the battle. So many people struggle with getting good drawings before they can even get to the g-code stage.

 

As for the large stuff, I am having it done with an outside contractor. I don't have sufficient working space to cut that size. I anticipated that I would need an outside source for some of the work. I don't expect it will cost very much as I will provide them with a g-code file and all they would need to do is load it, set the material in place and run the file. I also went through the process of deciding whether I would upgrade my equipment as you are doing right now. After looking at everything I need to make, it became apparent that my machine could do 99% of the work. If I had to contract out the rest of the work, it wasn't a large expenditure. As to the fuselage, I won't be fabricating a complete wrap around situation. Just the sides and that's it. My MIP will be set on rails and will push away from me so I can exit the cockpit. Kind of like having a little trolley in front of me.

 

As to the X-Carve 1000mm machine, they refer to it as a wood carver and almost all of the projects on their web site are wood. If you only need tolerances of .003" then I don't see why this wouldn't work well. I don't think you will be able to consistently cut good PCB's though. With a wood table there is no control over the cut of the surface. From my experience you need a ground flat table to control cutting depths with copper clad boards. Yes rudimentary PCBs are possible . Hell, some of us just used proto board or plexiglass. Its all in what you want to produce. I have some 128x32 OLEDs for displays in several instruments and I need to cut a PCB for them with really fine tolerances. You saw that last pic of mine. From my perspective, I can do anything I need for my cockpit as long as I have a good quality mill to do it. I'm afraid the router you are looking at will have some limitations. As long as you know what you can't do with it you won't be disappointed.

 

With regards to PCB's, I have tried to design every panel as a completely integrated unit with Arduino board, switches, LED backlight ... everything connected to one PCB. Sometimes several stacked one on top of another. I have cut 50 or so PCB's of varying sizes and complexity and it has made this build so much easier and also easier to trouble shoot. I honestly could not see sending out to have them made. There have been so many and sometimes you screw up and have to redesign one. Having it in house has been a blessing to say the least. But without a machine that has the tolerances to do it, I would not bother. Yes rudimentary boards can be cut but there aren't that many I would consider rudimentary. In fact you are always fighting with space limitations. So often, so much has to go into a small space.

 

One final note. If you are as good drawing detailed parts as your rendering and have good design sense, I think it would be a waste not to get a decent mill. I think I'm quite lucky in that I spent 20 years working with AutoCAD every single day. Its so much a part of me now that I can design while I draw and in the end I have a complete set of parts that fits perfectly together with so little effort. The mill has become my hands and everything it makes is as perfect as what I draw. It is so satisfying to see a perfect copy made of what you just drew on the screen.

 

But in the end we are all constrained by our budgets. Its also a matter of priorities which each of us view differently. So I wish you luck on whatever your choice is and if I can be of help...you know where I hang out.:)

 

Don't forget to post pics :smilewink:

[jrsteensen]

First off let me say, that is an excellent rendering... very impressive.:thumbup: So I expect doing all the detailed drawing thats needed won't be an issue for you. That is really most of the battle. So many people struggle with getting good drawings before they can even get to the g-code stage.

 

As for the large stuff, I am having it done with an outside contractor. I don't have sufficient working space to cut that size. I anticipated that I would need an outside source for some of the work. I don't expect it will cost very much as I will provide them with a g-code file and all they would need to do is load it, set the material in place and run the file. I also went through the process of deciding whether I would upgrade my equipment as you are doing right now. After looking at everything I need to make, it became apparent that my machine could do 99% of the work. If I had to contract out the rest of the work, it wasn't a large expenditure. As to the fuselage, I won't be fabricating a complete wrap around situation. Just the sides and that's it. My MIP will be set on rails and will push away from me so I can exit the cockpit. Kind of like having a little trolley in front of me.

 

As to the X-Carve 1000mm machine, they refer to it as a wood carver and almost all of the projects on their web site are wood. If you only need tolerances of .003" then I don't see why this wouldn't work well. I don't think you will be able to consistently cut good PCB's though. With a wood table there is no control over the cut of the surface. From my experience you need a ground flat table to control cutting depths with copper clad boards. Yes rudimentary PCBs are possible . Hell, some of us just used proto board or plexiglass. Its all in what you want to produce. I have some 128x32 OLEDs for displays in several instruments and I need to cut a PCB for them with really fine tolerances. You saw that last pic of mine. From my perspective, I can do anything I need for my cockpit as long as I have a good quality mill to do it. I'm afraid the router you are looking at will have some limitations. As long as you know what you can't do with it you won't be disappointed.

 

With regards to PCB's, I have tried to design every panel as a completely integrated unit with Arduino board, switches, LED backlight ... everything connected to one PCB. Sometimes several stacked one on top of another. I have cut 50 or so PCB's of varying sizes and complexity and it has made this build so much easier and also easier to trouble shoot. I honestly could not see sending out to have them made. There have been so many and sometimes you screw up and have to redesign one. Having it in house has been a blessing to say the least. But without a machine that has the tolerances to do it, I would not bother. Yes rudimentary boards can be cut but there aren't that many I would consider rudimentary. In fact you are always fighting with space limitations. So often, so much has to go into a small space.

 

One final note. If you are as good drawing detailed parts as your rendering and have good design sense, I think it would be a waste not to get a decent mill. I think I'm quite lucky in that I spent 20 years working with AutoCAD every single day. Its so much a part of me now that I can design while I draw and in the end I have a complete set of parts that fits perfectly together with so little effort. The mill has become my hands and everything it makes is as perfect as what I draw. It is so satisfying to see a perfect copy made of what you just drew on the screen.

 

But in the end we are all constrained by our budgets. Its also a matter of priorities which each of us view differently. So I wish you luck on whatever your choice is and if I can be of help...you know where I hang out.:)

 

Don't forget to post pics :smilewink:

 

Will do. Leaning back towards the mill after chewing on it. Just gotta save a few extra pennies...gonna take me a hot minute to get this model then associated drawings done anyways. I already have 160 hours easy into this model.

 

Researched the overhead console some more, (Deep deep into the IPM Tech Manual for the UH-1H) as there were extra dzus fasteners in the middle I couldn't figure out the function of. I discovered an interesting tidbit - the overhead console is actually two seperate console, split on the longitudinal plane, and hinged. They swing outwards for maintenance. Additionally, I think I will do the majority of the sim control (game/pc related) functions via push/pull and pushbutton switches in place of the circuit breakers in the overhead console.

[rocketeer]

Putting a small resistor on pots will clean their input up.

 

No response from ragtop. anyone else tried this?

[jrsteensen]

No response from ragtop. anyone else tried this?

 

Try it and report back?

[Mike Powell]

Placing a resistor (or two) from the wiper contact to one (or both) end of the pot will indeed reduce noise from the pot IF the noise is due to poor or intermittent contact of the wiper. However, there are any number of other ways electrical noise can sneak into a circuit. Adding resistor(s) this way unfortunately also has the side effect of changing the linearity function of the pot's output. Might be best to buy a high quality pot to start with.

[rocketeer]

thanks mike for your input. looks like pots are still not easy to solve. think i really have to buy more encoders.

 

warhog, i like your method of using clear acrylic sheets as the backplate and shining led rows from the white box. this way there's no fuss snaking the lights around the switches like most people do. however, would it be easy for bigger switches than toggles like pots and encoders to block the light? or because the light is bounced all over the walls of the white box that it doesn't need direct light from the bottom and the result will still be ok?

 

can you show a few more examples of how you light some panels?

 

second, what happens when you have switches that are packed very closely together, like those in the UFC and CDU, with dozens of push buttons stacked side by side? how do you light them?

 

your panels are a great inspiration to us.

[rocketeer]

http://s221.photobucket.com/user/MRAR15/media/A10%20Cockpit%20Panels/IMG_0542.jpg.html?sort=3&o=13

 

you use a pro mini for each panel. you designed this tiny board. what pins does it connect to on the pro mini? what does the board do? how do we wire the switches to it? or just to the pro mini. what else we connect the board to? sorry so many things i don't understand : (

[Warhog]

thanks mike for your input. looks like pots are still not easy to solve. think i really have to buy more encoders.

 

warhog, i like your method of using clear acrylic sheets as the backplate and shining led rows from the white box. this way there's no fuss snaking the lights around the switches like most people do. however, would it be easy for bigger switches than toggles like pots and encoders to block the light? or because the light is bounced all over the walls of the white box that it doesn't need direct light from the bottom and the result will still be ok?

 

can you show a few more examples of how you light some panels?

 

second, what happens when you have switches that are packed very closely together, like those in the UFC and CDU, with dozens of push buttons stacked side by side? how do you light them?

 

your panels are a great inspiration to us.

 

Thank you Rocketeer.

 

Yes there are situations like the UFC where ths technique will not work. With the UFC I placed strips of LEDs between the rows of switches wherever there was engraving. I didn't do that with the CDU as there is no engraving on the panel itself. Its all located on the actual buttons and then I use illuminated push buttons.

 

The light box technique works well most of the time but as I said in my previous post some switch layouts will cause dead spots in the light distribution because of their size and/or positioning. In those situations I provide single LEDs, strategically placed, to add "fill light". That's just a matter of experimenting to find the best place for them to add the extra illumination required to counter dead spots. One more thing, I will also be adding a few holes in the light boxes for ventilation as they do tend to get warm. I don't see it as a problem though. I have left a couple of them run continuously for 24 hours and it didn't get "hot" by any means.

 

Later today I'll post a few more pics of this technique.

 

Yourself and several others have inquired about the RS-485 bus that Ian is developing. In anticipation of implementing it I designed this breakout board specifically for the Pro Mini. I'm not going to talk in any detail about this right now as we will be starting a separate thread where detailed user info and installation instructions will be provided once testing has finished. Suffice it to say, this board slips over the header pins of the Pro Mini and the A4 and A5 pins. You would push it all the way down and solder all the pins to the board. There is still sufficient length in the header pins to allow one to insert a USB-Serial converter to program the board. On the Pro Mini you need Tx, Rx and one additional pin ( the A4 or A5) to connect to the bus. There are 2 sets of A-B Pins on each board to facilitate daisy chaining. This little breakout board will really simplify an already simple bus connection. Later on I will also design and make available a breakout board for the Mega as I will be using several in addition to the 30 or 40 Pro Minis I will have installed:music_whistling:

 

@Mike...After reading your post about using resistors to clear up noise, are you sure your not thinking of capacitors? You could try soldering a couple of .01uf ceramic caps between centre and each side pin of a pot to clean up some noise although I haven't actually tried that myself since I replaced all my pots with rotary encoders. But capacitors are used specifically to reduce noise. Resistors on the other hand will just reduce voltage and I don't know how that will make things better.

[Mike Powell]

@John

 

I was responding to this post about resistors. Caps present another possibility with their own caveats. Sorry, should have included the quote in my original post.

 

 

Putting a small resistor on pots will clean their input up.

No response from ragtop. anyone else tried this?

Edited May 21, 2015 by Mike Powell

[jrsteensen]

Minor Update: Got 50 of the appropriate panel lights, a real UH-1 caution panel indicator set, and a dzus flaring tool & cup for 30 bucks total in. Woo! Grabbed one of my apache panels I have in my cabinet, and the dzus flaring tool slips right over the studs perfectly, just a little contact corrosion that I will clean up in the AM.

[jrsteensen]

.

[jrsteensen]

Well, it's been awhile since I posted. This project is not dead by a long shot...expect some significant updates in the next few weeks.

[UH1Fan]

Looking forward to the updates. Happy New Year!

[jrsteensen]

So, here is my third iteration of the center console and overhead console. Didn't close up the aft portion of the overhead console to show a little bit of the underlying structure - I've decided to go with Misumi extrusion as the major structural component of the build for a host of reasons.

 

Pardon the few labels that didn't render correctly - makes em hard to read.

 

Finishing up some odds and ends, then turning my attention to the main instrument panel. Still considering some possibilities for the radio stack, not completely sold on doing the full ARC-210's yet for 'em.

 

Also, figured out a way to manufacture fully functional dzus rails relatively cheaply. Now, if only I can find a sane price for the anodized black studs

Edited June 25, 2017 by jrsteensen

[hansangb]

Damn!!! that's a lot of CNC'ing/Laser cutting!

[jrsteensen]

It will be for the panels, but no more complex than any other pit in that regard. One of the reasons I picked the masumi extrusion is you can do the vast majority of cutting with a bandsaw, and grind to final length. Very few parts so far of the structure requires a mill - even the skins are simple enough to do by hand and on a cheap HF sheet metal brake.

[jrsteensen]

Meh, I'm back to the drawing board for the structure. Deadman, thanks for the inspiration with you and your team's recent release. Reminded me I need to make it out of things people can make in their garage.

[Deadman]

Hey thanks for let us know it has made a difference and inspired you. There is not much feed back on the thread at the moment which is very disappointing. There have been quite a few UH ! panels on eBay I hope you have scored a few. Keep posting pictures It looks like it will be a great build.