My UH-1H/V Pit....

[Deadman]

I thought you may have a Handel on it when I looked at you 210 model.

[jrsteensen]

I thought you may have a Handel on it when I looked at you 210 model.

 

:thumbup: Standards tend to be a guideline in the aerospace/defense industry. As long as you have a good reason and the customer buys off on it, they will waive just about anything not related to safety of flight.

[jrsteensen]

If you have CNC milling capabilities and are going to use it for engraving why would you not use engraving plastic as apposed to painting acrylic white and then black and then trying to just remove just the black so only the white shows. To me it would seem to be a long and drawn out process whereas engraving plastic works really really well as one would expect. It also cuts much finer than you can achieve with acrylic and its easier on your tooling. I was amazed at the fact "acrylic" can actually dull a steel carbide end mill.

 

This is what you can expect from engraving plastic. I think this is "Romark" matte black on bright white. It comes in thicknesses of .022" and .06". I use the .06" for almost everything. The thin stuff I used for the engine gauges as you can see below.

 

 

 

That was cut with a .125" diameter 0.010" tip 60 degree carbide engraving cutter at a depth of 0.003". In these applications I use either double sided tape to hold it in place or a pocket the acrylic backing plate to a depth of .02" so the faceplate just drops into position.

 

The cutter was purchased from:

https://www.2linc.com/engraving_tools.htm.

 

John, just did some research on acrylic cutters - going to order a 10 pack of single flute upcut end mills for the regular acrylic milling. Only about 35 bucks. They are chinese...but I can afford to break a few at that price.

 

I'll pick up a couple of those engraving bits as well.

[Warhog]

After cutting over 60 or so acrylic plates and 20 panel faceplates, experience has demonstrated that a 1/16" 2 flute HSS end mill i(1/8" shank) is the preferred means of milling both acrylic and engraving plastic with a max cutting increment of 0.02". Not sure of my feed rate but I'll get back to you on that. There are also times when a 1/8" end mill is desirable but not very often. That's all you need for cutting.

 

As far as spindle speed, most of your cutting will be slower so use your fastest speed and try some acrylic. I think you will find it to be fine. For engraving you may just need to reduce feed rate to compensate for the slower spindle speed. Try it out before you get into major alterations. You may be Ok. The up cuts are a good idea but can they be had at 1/16"? Don't expect to use larger diameter end mills for panels unless you have a way to make tool chanes automatically. The 1/16" will do all of your hole cutting including all of the 0.093" or 0.098" holes you will need that will eventually be tapped for 6-32 or 3mm x.5 threads. I use 6-32 on faceplates and 3mm x.5 on the backside for the metric standoffs I buy in bulk from China.

 

You can eliminate the need to paint if you try this type of backlight. I enclose each panel with a simple open ended box that is glued to the back of the panel. The rear plate of this box is attached with screws to allow access for servicing or repair. It's made of bright white .06" styrene. I then user those 12v strip LEDs that you can cut into preset lengths which are fixed to the inside of this rear plate. The led strips have an adhesive backing so it makes them easy to attach. This white box coupled with the clear acrylic and the white back of the engraving plastic provides excellent backlighting due to their combined reflective qualities. It really helps to even out the backlighting. I'll post some pictures of examples for you later when I'm at my PC. Btw, as much as I buy many of my supplies and electronic components incuding milling accesories from China, I would be highly suspect of buying end mills or any tooling from them. I bought a ten pack of carbide PCB cutters which were garbage...absolute crap. That may not be representative but I fear it is very possible.

 

Hope that helps you.

 

John

[jrsteensen]

After cutting over 60 or so acrylic plates and 20 panel faceplates, experience has demonstrated that a 1/16" 2 flute HSS end mill i(1/8" shank) is the preferred means of milling both acrylic and engraving plastic with a max cutting increment of 0.02". Not sure of my feed rate but I'll get back to you on that. There are also times when a 1/8" end mill is desirable but not very often. That's all you need for cutting.

 

As far as spindle speed, most of your cutting will be slower so use your fastest speed and try some acrylic. I think you will find it to be fine. For engraving you may just need to reduce feed rate to compensate for the slower spindle speed. Try it out before you get into major alterations. You may be Ok. The up cuts are a good idea but can they be had at 1/16"? Don't expect to use larger diameter end mills for panels unless you have a way to make tool chanes automatically. The 1/16" will do all of your hole cutting including all of the 0.093" or 0.098" holes you will need that will eventually be tapped for 6-32 or 3mm x.5 threads. I use 6-32 on faceplates and 3mm x.5 on the backside for the metric standoffs I buy in bulk from China.

 

You can eliminate the need to paint if you try this type of backlight. I enclose each panel with a simple open ended box that is glued to the back of the panel. The rear plate of this box is attached with screws to allow access for servicing or repair. It's made of bright white .06" styrene. I then user those 12v strip LEDs that you can cut into preset lengths which are fixed to the inside of this rear plate. The led strips have an adhesive backing so it makes them easy to attach. This white box coupled with the clear acrylic and the white back of the engraving plastic provides excellent backlighting due to their combined reflective qualities. It really helps to even out the backlighting. I'll post some pictures of examples for you later when I'm at my PC. Btw, as much as I buy many of my supplies and electronic components incuding milling accesories from China, I would be highly suspect of buying end mills or any tooling from them. I bought a ten pack of carbide PCB cutters which were garbage...absolute crap. That may not be representative but I fear it is very possible.

 

Hope that helps you.

 

John

 

What a wealth of knowledge! Thank you.

 

Just so I understand your stackup you go:

 

1. Rowmark .06 layer
   
2. Styrene .06 box layer
   
3. Clear Acrylic .118 Layer
   
4. Aluminum Backplate
   

LEDs are attached to the top of the clear acrylic layer, which would place them inside the styrene layer? Would you be willing to share the part number of the LED strips? How do you power and drive the LED backlighting? Separate connector from I/O pins?

[Warhog]

Close but no cigar.

 

Starting with the engraved faceplate and working back is:

 

Engraving plastic .06"

Acrylic mid plate .118"

Acrylic back plate .118"

box structure made from .06" Styrene plastic.

I don't use aluminum anywhere.

 

Here are a few quick and dirty pics to illustrate what I am referring to.

 

These are the basic panel structure

 

 

 

 

...and this is another panel with the light box separated from the panel itself.

 

 

 

 

...another panel with the light box attached:

 

 

...still a WIP

 

 

. ...and a side on shot. It makes for a nice clean build.

 

 

I haven't done any painting on this panel yet. You need to deal with the light leaks as with all panels regardless of construction techniques but it does show you how well the light is distributed throughout. Its not always perfect so once in a while a few extra LEDs are needed to fill in dead spots.

 

 

Another important part of cutting your panel faceplates is that you mill the backside to a depth of around 0.035" wherever there is engraving. The plastic essentially blocks all light but when you pocket out the areas with text it glows through quite nicely. This shot illustrates where I have removed material from the back of the faceplate.

 

That's essentially how I build my panels. Everyone here employs a variety of methods depending on what you wish to produce as an end product.

 

These are the LEDs I recently purchased.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC12V-SMD-5050-300LEDS-60LEDS-M-not-waterproof-Green-LED-Strip-5M-/301107557223?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item461b68b367

 

They are just great for lighting. You can cut them in small lengths. They have cut marks set into the strip. They use 12v with very little current draw.

 

Spend some time exploring electronic components from China. Very inexpensive. I couldn't have afforded what I have built so far if not for the cost saving from buying Chinese components.

[Boltz]

Hi John I think I might have to borrow your idea of the boxes for backlighting. How have you attached the box to the back plate?

 

Sorry for derailing the thread. Looks like some good stuff coming up Jrsteensen

[smirkza]

Wow, that really is looking lovely!

 

Very jealous! :D

 

Smirks

[Warhog]

Hi John I think I might have to borrow your idea of the boxes for backlighting. How have you attached the box to the back plate?

 

Sorry for derailing the thread. Looks like some good stuff coming up Jrsteensen

 

 

Its kind of a secret Calum. Its a technique that I have spent literally decades developing. I think I am the only one (possibly worldwide) who knows this technique and how to do it correctly. I hate to just give away trade secrets Calum. Now if would consider donating large sums of money I will tell you. BUT....you also need to sign a non disclosure form as I don't want just any riffraff using this without my explicit approval and possibly a large monetary donation. I know your good for it so if your ready??.....................

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:P

 

Thick Cynoacrylate from a tube.:pilotfly:

[Boltz]

Thanks, just doesn't seem to be your style ;)

Couldn't see any fixings so decided it had to be some secret invisible fastener. Seeing as I have gotten away with the forms I might be able to steal your idea and make millions (insert evil laugh)

Cheers mate

[rocketeer]

Hi Warhog, thanks very much for sharing your backlighting secret.

 

1. Looks like you are using an arduino uno for each panel? If one arduino board for each panel, it'd be like 40-50 usb connections. My understanding is that the current arduino library does not support too many usb connections and I don't know how I2C works. Have you managed to wire all panels? are you using arduino or interface boards?

 

2. how are you powering each board/panel? one power adapter for each panel means you need several long power strips. or you make a wire split or connect in series?

 

3. how do you make the oxygen panel switches work? they are kinda like toggles, 2 or 3 positions, although the wide rotation at first makes them look like we should use pots. and did you 3d print those 3 handles? or are they a replica of the real thing? I haven't figured about the make the handles and how to make the switches for this panel yet.

[FSFIan]

1. Looks like you are using an arduino uno for each panel? If one arduino board for each panel, it'd be like 40-50 usb connections. My understanding is that the current arduino library does not support too many usb connections and I don't know how I2C works. Have you managed to wire all panels? are you using arduino or interface boards?

 

Those are Pro Mini boards. We will implement a protocol to make several boards communicate over a RS-485 bus. The last parts I need to start working on this have arrived at home and I will pick them up this weekend. WarHog has already designed a breakout board for the RS-485 transceiver chip that can go on top of a Pro Mini. A complete cockpit will use two or three of these RS-485 buses, each one will be connected to the PC using an inexpensive USB to RS-485 adapter.

 

The theoretical limit for the number of USB devices (including hubs) connected to a single host controller is 127, but in practice I have heard of people having problems starting at a few dozen devices.

[Warhog]

Hi Warhog, thanks very much for sharing your backlighting secret.

 

1. Looks like you are using an arduino uno for each panel? If one arduino board for each panel, it'd be like 40-50 usb connections. My understanding is that the current arduino library does not support too many usb connections and I don't know how I2C works. Have you managed to wire all panels? are you using arduino or interface boards?

 

2. how are you powering each board/panel? one power adapter for each panel means you need several long power strips. or you make a wire split or connect in series?

 

3. how do you make the oxygen panel switches work? they are kinda like toggles, 2 or 3 positions, although the wide rotation at first makes them look like we should use pots. and did you 3d print those 3 handles? or are they a replica of the real thing? I haven't figured about the make the handles and how to make the switches for this panel yet.

 

Hey Rocketeer

 

To answer your questions...

 

1. what Ian said.

 

2. I use the PSU from a PC so I have +12v +5v +3.3v and I also have negative voltage which I did not breakout from the PSU. I will have a power rail and a ground running along the length of each console that you can break into where ever you want. The PSU is 750 watts so it should handle most everything I am powering.

 

3. Those are really cute little switches. I made them from scratch. Drew them up in AutoCAD, exported to CamBam, then to Mach3 and my mill for cutting. They are cut from .25" thick white styrene and then airbrushed red, grey and green Tamiya acrylic paint with a final coat of semi gloss clear coat. I posted below some enlargements of the switches and a diagram I threw together in plan view and cross section in hopes that everyone can better visualize how I made these switches.

 

What the photo enlargements do not show are the small tactile switches I placed on the back side of the acrylic structure I use to hold the "levers" in place. There are 2, one on each end. The drawing I made shows them clearly, and when the lever rotates about its center it makes contact with either of the little push buttons. Refer to the cross section in the drawing which illustrates both possible positions. The levers themselves are basically clamped together by the acrylic sides. There is a 2mm shaft running through each lever. I also used those shafts as a means of holding them in place along with a good dab of super glue.

 

 

 

 

And finally a drawing of what I made.

 

 

 

I hope that all makes sense to you. BTW, according to the DCS A10 manual the red lever switch has no function in the simulator so I did nothing to it other than install the lever.

[doveman]

Ian;2396185']Those are Pro Mini boards. We will implement a protocol to make several boards communicate over a RS-485 bus.

 

What's the advantage of using RS-485, rather than chaining several boards together via I2C and having a network shield on the last one, to send the data to the PC over UDP?

 

I believe there's some advantages to using UDP rather than USB, such as not having to worry about Windows changing the Device ID when the boards are connected to it and it being a more efficient way to transfer the data with less chance of overloading the bus. At least that's what some people suggest on the X-plane forum.

[FSFIan]

What's the advantage of using RS-485, rather than chaining several boards together via I2C and having a network shield on the last one, to send the data to the PC over UDP?

 

It's more reliable (differential signalling) and still inexpensive. I2C is even more inexpensive because it's already built into the microcontroller (so it was my initial choice, too), but it was designed for communication over short distances with chips on the same circuit board. If you start adding more and more Arduinos to an I2C bus, at some point there will be (possibly intermittent) problems. If you don't have the experience and equipment (logic analyzer or scope) to determine what is happening, that can lead to a lot of frustration (and hard-to-answer questions).

 

For RS-485, we will be able to confidently state "as long as you use this schematic and this type of transceiver, if you keep the number of boards per RS-485 bus below X, it will work." It is hard to come up with such a number for an I2C bus.

 

So the short answer to "Why RS-485?" is "because I'll have to support it" (and it was recommended to me by Gadroc and Mike Powell, who (a) know more about this stuff than I do and (b) have actually built a simpit before).

 

However, there is nothing stopping you from using I2C and UDP instead. The DCS-BIOS Arduino library is designed in a way that does not force you to use any particular method to communicate with the PC, and that will not change.

[Inrideo]

If you're not in a hurry for the parts I've heard this company is pretty good for arduino bits.

Shipping is very slow though.

 

http://www.banggood.com/buy/Arduino.html

[doveman]

Ian;2396532']It's more reliable (differential signalling) and still inexpensive. I2C is even more inexpensive because it's already built into the microcontroller (so it was my initial choice' date=' too), but it was designed for communication over short distances with chips on the same circuit board. If you start adding more and more Arduinos to an I2C bus, at some point there will be (possibly intermittent) problems. If you don't have the experience and equipment (logic analyzer or scope) to determine what is happening, that can lead to a lot of frustration (and hard-to-answer questions).[/quote']

 

Thanks for that explanation Ian. I've been meaning to ask for a while and it's good to know there might be a better alternative to consider when I get round to building.

[rocketeer]

Thanks Warhog and Ian for the explanations.

 

Warhog,

1. In your drawing you show two tactile switches at the bottom, but in the photos I didn't see.

2. What is the small hole at the bottom of the handle's neck for?

3. To the small hole's right there is a small semi circle cutout. And what is that for again?

4. Can you share the rough dimension of the handle and semi circle body?

 

Sorry for the many requests. Your work is awesome!

[Warhog]

Thanks Warhog and Ian for the explanations.

 

Warhog,

1. In your drawing you show two tactile switches at the bottom, but in the photos I didn't see.

2. What is the small hole at the bottom of the handle's neck for?

3. To the small hole's right there is a small semi circle cutout. And what is that for again?

4. Can you share the rough dimension of the handle and semi circle body?

 

Sorry for the many requests. Your work is awesome!

 

In response to your questions...

1. Those pics were taken before I had installed the switches.

2. Don't know... Copied it right from the cocpit pictures I had.

3. Same as 2.

4. I'll post a pic with some dimensions later today but please note these are guesstimates only. I am unsure as to their real sizes. They do look correct however and when in the panel they look virtually the same as the real thing.

 

What do you use for drawing? I can give you an AutoCAD file or a dxf if that would be easier.

[rocketeer]

Guesstimates are good enough for me. I don't have cnc machine. A PDF file that I can print is all I need. Then I'd attempt to manually cut the shape on wood or acrylic. Thanks!

[Warhog]

Guesstimates are good enough for me. I don't have cnc machine. A PDF file that I can print is all I need. Then I'd attempt to manually cut the shape on wood or acrylic. Thanks!

 

I have attached a PDF of the drawing I created and it has dimensions. It is also plotted at 1=1 so you should be able to print it at full scale and it will come out the actual size. There is also a bar scale so you can use that to ensure it was in fact printed at the right size.

 

Hope that helps out.

levers to scale.pdf

[rocketeer]

Got it. Thanks again.

 

You are from ontario canada? I went to college in the east coast. Been to toronto twice. Canada is such a beautiful place. Just a tad too cold for someone in california. :)

[rocketeer]

Warhog you seem way ahead of us in terms of having many panels done. How much of hooking them to PC have you done? Since you are using arduino too, are you also getting constant noise in pots to the extend they become not usable? I was told to switch all pots to encoders. What's your situation?

[Ragtop]

Putting a small resistor on pots will clean their input up.

[Warhog]

Warhog you seem way ahead of us in terms of having many panels done. How much of hooking them to PC have you done? Since you are using arduino too, are you also getting constant noise in pots to the extend they become not usable? I was told to switch all pots to encoders. What's your situation?

 

Rocketeer, Canada is a tad to cold for me as well and the summers are too damned hot. I would love to live in California somewhere away from cities. Oh to be filthy rich...I wouldn't have to dream anymore.

 

I believe I was the one who told you to switch over to rotary encoders.:music_whistling: I haven't employed a single pot so far. If this constant stream of data is eventually resolved I can easily replace some of my R.E.'s with pots. I understand that when Ian releases version 2 of the DCS-BIOS Arduino Libraries, he will have looked at ths particular issue.

 

As to connecting panels, yes I have built quite a few often but I have only connected a couple. My work flow has been to get all the panel faceplates completed along with installing the switches with wiring in place. I have tested all my displays to ensure they function as needed. But, I have not connected it all together yet. That will be the last order of business. I know that each panel will work, so I am waiting to get them all installed before I compete all of the wiring.

 

I know this whole connection thing is on everyone's mind now that the Arduino platform has made it's way into our cockpits. All I can say at the moment is that Ian and I are going to be installing an RS-485 bus to make the connection of all panels much easier and very much less problematic. I expect you will see a thread in the next week or so explaining the whole thing. I have designed a breakout board for the Pro Mini incorporating the MAX487 chip. Now it's just a matter of Ian developing the additional programming required to get it up and running. We've been waiting for the parst we needed to arrive from China before development could begin. We now have everything we require to move forward.