Su-25 in SEAD role

[baltic_dragon]

Hey,

 

I must admit I have never flown Su-25 (and sat in cockpit only once), but as it currently seems to be the only SEAD capable player - flown aircraft in DCS I have a few questions.

 

I am shortly going to release a complex multiplayer mission mainly for A-10C, but I am toying with the thought of introducing a possibility to have a pair of Georgian Su-25s flying as SEAD (now the task is done by German AI Tornadoes). So quickly:

 

1) How proficient would Su-25 be against SA-15, SA-8 and SA-19?

2) How does the Su-25 acquire active radars? Sorry if the question is stupid, but is it capable of discovering them / locking on to them or does it need some external guidance for the position?

 

We are talking about 1-2 SA-15s, 1-2 SA-8s and 3-4 SA-19s in the whole mission (spawn randomly).

 

As I say, it is just a thought (I won't include it in the original release of the mission, but if it is feasible I will include it as a later addition). Any feedback / thoughts warmly welcome.

[=4c=Nikola]

I believe you need su-25t for that.

 

Human pilot in Su-25t can deal with SA-15, SA-8 and SA-19 with ease. I don't know about AI.

 

Su-25t carries a pod for radar detection and has HUD symbology to lock targets.

[baltic_dragon]

That is what I need to know, I am thinking about human pilot :) can you give me the name of the pod and weapons that should be loaded on the plane? And BTW, what is the difference between Su-25 and Su-25T? Thanks!

[=4c=Nikola]

Basically Su-25T is modernized Su-25 two seater, they pulled out rear seat and packed electronics inside. It has modern HUD and TV display for targeting purposes. It's better equipped, but maneuverability suffers.

 

You would need L-081 pod, Kh-58U and Kh-25MLU anti-radar missiles. Additionally, you can use Kh-25ML laser guided missiles.

 

Keep in mind that one TOR requires two missiles because it usually shot down first one.

[Ramsay]

Su25T is the free aircraft in DCS World, it has a Shkval TV camera like the Ka-50 and a IR Jammer in it's tail. It is heavier than the Su-25, so generally has faster takeoff and landing speeds, etc.

 

Su-25T SEAD

---------------

Centerline Pod

L-081 Fantasmagoria Pod

Passive Antiradar Missiles

2x Kh-25MPU ~20km ramge

2x Kh-58U ~40km range

 

You might want to equip the ECM jamming pods as well.

2x MPS-410 ECM Pod Wingtip

 

TV/Laser guided 9A4172 Vihkr missiles are good reserves but it'll depend how heavy you want to be and how hot the target is (as their max range is only ~8km).

 

Edit:

As =4c=Nikola says, TV/Laser guided Kh-25ML's are also a good option due to their longer range (compared to the Vikhr) and can be used if a TELAR's radar has gone silent or is facing away from you.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Ramsay

[Nerd1000]

The main limitation of the Vikhr missiles is that the launching aircraft can't maneuver much until the missile impacts the target. The Vikhr is a beam rider, so maneuvering will make it fly out of the laser beam and lose track. This makes them IMO a poor choice for SEAD missions, because the launching aircraft is forced to fly directly towards the SAM or AAA in order to ensure that their missile hits. The Kh-25ML is a better option- the pilot can at least put the target on his shkval gimbal limits after launch so he isn't flying directly towards the incoming fire.

 

If the SU-25Ts are dedicated to SEAD I'd also be inclined to give them rocket pods or cluster bombs to take out MANPADS and AAA emplacements that don't have radar.

[Ramsay]

The main limitation of the Vikhr missiles is that the launching aircraft can't maneuver much until the missile impacts the target. The Vikhr is a beam rider, so maneuvering will make it fly out of the laser beam and lose track. This makes them IMO a poor choice for SEAD missions, because the launching aircraft is forced to fly directly towards the SAM or AAA in order to ensure that their missile hits. The Kh-25ML is a better option- the pilot can at least put the target on his shkval gimbal limits after launch so he isn't flying directly towards the incoming fire.

 

If the SU-25Ts are dedicated to SEAD I'd also be inclined to give them rocket pods or cluster bombs to take out MANPADS and AAA emplacements that don't have radar.

 

True, I normally try to fly as a MP 2 ship flight, so that's 8x anti-radiation missile fired, then I look to get out of dodge as both the A-10C and Ka-50 have better standoff capability.

 

Whether I equip rocket pods or vikhrs, it's rare that I'll use them if the SEAD mission goes as planned.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Ramsay

[ViFF]

We are talking about 1-2 SA-15s, 1-2 SA-8s and 3-4 SA-19s in the whole mission (spawn randomly).

 

One thing to consider is that the SA-15 and the SA-19 both have the capability to launch their missiles against the incoming anti radiation missiles of the Su-25T.

 

The Kh-58 is easier to shoot down because it is slower in the terminal phase.

 

Firing in pairs usually defeats this interception capability of the SA-15 and SA-19, but it also depends how many SA-15s and SA-19s are bunched together.

 

If you put enough of them they will intercept all the inbound missiles :)

 

S!

[baltic_dragon]

Thank you guys! As I've said this will go into the next release of the mission, but if anyone is happy to help me test it once I start implementing the idea, I will be more than happy. I will also probably add 1-2 additional tasks for Su-25s, so that there is more fun :)

[159th_Falcon]

For the mission design i'd go whit the following given the fact that the A-10C and KA-50 are more then capable of dealing whit AAA and manpads themselves.

 

2* MPS-410 jammers

4* 25MPU

1* L-081 Phantasmagoria

 

Pure SEAD load-out and not having the 58's brings some welcome speed and manoeuvrability.

The range of the 58's is only really needed against HAWK, Patriot, S300 and the likes.

[Airbuster]

Talking about misleading titles, do anyone remember in early Lock-on the Su-25 (not the T version) really had SEAD capabilities (anti-radiation missiles). What happened to that?

[Nerd1000]

One thing to consider is that the SA-15 and the SA-19 both have the capability to launch their missiles against the incoming anti radiation missiles of the Su-25T.

 

The Kh-58 is easier to shoot down because it is slower in the terminal phase.

 

Firing in pairs usually defeats this interception capability of the SA-15 and SA-19, but it also depends how many SA-15s and SA-19s are bunched together.

 

If you put enough of them they will intercept all the inbound missiles :)

 

S!

 

Here's a thought- does anyone know whether the SAMs will target guided bombs like the KAB-500Kr? A Su-25T at high altitude could probably drop one and stay out of the range of Short range missiles like the SA-15.

[159th_Falcon]

Testing stuff anyway, let me try.

 

EDIT,

Nope, does not work, tested on SA-15 set to excellent;

From 5km Alt you get launched on before you get LA or are in range of the KAB500Kr

From 7km Alt you get launched on before you get LA, you do get in range of the 500Kr though.

Thought the angle the seeker head had to make was to big so i tried a 2nd time from 7km Alt,

 

This time i pulled up a bit to establish a climb to 7500 when almost in range and then dive back down

to make sure the seeker head could align. But by the time you get a lock and LA you have already been

launched at. No chance to escape the missile either.

Another problem is that by pulling up your speed reduces which drasticly reduces the bombs range.

Edited September 21, 2015 by 159th_Falcon

[DarkFire]

Here's a thought- does anyone know whether the SAMs will target guided bombs like the KAB-500Kr? A Su-25T at high altitude could probably drop one and stay out of the range of Short range missiles like the SA-15.

 

The Tor tends not to engage bombs, however the 2S19 Tunguska certainly does and it's fearsomely effective at it. This tactic works very well against MANPADs and AAA emplacements though.

 

The Su-25T can be an incredibly effective weapon against all sorts of targets but you have to be fairly careful flying it with heavy loads: unlike the normal Su-25, the centre of gravity of the T model is always to the rear, so it won't naturally recover from a stall. In fact recovering from a stall is normally impossible and the recommended procedure is simply to eject. Hence, you have to be very mindful of your AOA limits and be gentle with the controls when it's heavily loaded.

 

Even without ARMs though it can be an effective stand-off weapon: the Kh-25 missiles have a great stand-off range. You also have a very big stick in the form of the Kh-29. They're big, heavy missiles but in terms of warhead weight it's useful to think of them as a guided & propelled Mk.84 bomb.

 

The ELINT pod that enables targeting of ground radars is called the Phantazmagoria.

[159th_Falcon]

Can confirm, ran in from 10k Alt and managed to get LA before getting shot at.

The SA-15 did not try to shoot the bomb down.

However, at that altitude by the time i could turn around i was already shot down.

So not a viable tactic.

 

As for range on the KH-25's, it's rather disappointing currently. They need some love.

For the 29T, great for stationary target but very limited capability on hitting a moving target. Also the seeker is a bit limited in range as well as the missile itself.

(at least last time i tested it many moons ago.)

(KH-25MPU's are fine range wise btw, just the ML i believe that's lacking legs)

 

EDIT

 

Just tested the 29T and from 10K alt the indicated range on the range indicator was less then 10 km (bug?)

Decided to use launch override and gamble the seeker would have a lock from about 12km range.

It did and both SA-15's were destroyed, 2nd one only just though cause it started moving causing the missile to miss.

The blast was close enough to still kill the SA-15. (and a nearby fuel truck.......)

 

Also, its a real pain getting up that high in the 25T, so even though it may be possible, it may not be a viable option.

Edited September 21, 2015 by 159th_Falcon

[WinterH]

In my experience with Kh-29T, missile's huge explosion radius and fire&forget capability against stationary targets are both nice. However, it is huge and relatively slow. This leads to even those SAM systems which normally can't engage other missiles to shoot it down easily. Even OSA (SA-8) can do that for example. So if you are going to take a big and heavy missile for SEAD Kh-58U which shares with 29T the inner pylon as the only valid station is a better option to carry anyway.

Edited September 22, 2015 by WinterH
On screen keyboard funkyness

[Kamov Akula]

Moving radar targets?

 

Could not find an answer anywhere that clarified this to the point. Aren't the Kh58 and 25mpu's supposed to be radar homing weapons? IE won't they hit the target even when the vehicle is moving, or are they not designed to be maneuverable after launch or after a certain point? I am trying to complete the 25T's Instant Mission's CAS medium level with a better or perfect score and there are a bunch of radar AA's (forgot exactly what) that are running up the road, and no matter what I do I cannot hit them until they stop. If I wait till they stop, my mission gets so behind that I cannot get the perfect score I'm trying to get, since the mission is contingent on hitting the enemy ground units before they kill our ground units. I actually have better results forgetting about the Anti Radar missiles and trying to get those AA's with regular laser missiles instead. I just want a closure so that I can stop trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong, are the Anti Radar missiles not designed to hit moving targets?

[esb77]

Could not find an answer anywhere that clarified this to the point. Aren't the Kh58 and 25mpu's supposed to be radar homing weapons? IE won't they hit the target even when the vehicle is moving, or are they not designed to be maneuverable after launch or after a certain point? I am trying to complete the 25T's Instant Mission's CAS medium level with a better or perfect score and there are a bunch of radar AA's (forgot exactly what) that are running up the road, and no matter what I do I cannot hit them until they stop. If I wait till they stop, my mission gets so behind that I cannot get the perfect score I'm trying to get, since the mission is contingent on hitting the enemy ground units before they kill our ground units. I actually have better results forgetting about the Anti Radar missiles and trying to get those AA's with regular laser missiles instead. I just want a closure so that I can stop trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong, are the Anti Radar missiles not designed to hit moving targets?

 

The Kh 58 and Kh 25MPUs are primarily meant for stationary medium to long range SAM emplacements.

 

Kub, Buk, S300, Hawk, Patriot, etc. For a short range radar SAM such as the Osa or Tor, they can work but aren't always reliable. They're really not meant for AAA units such as the Shilka, Tunguska, Vulcan, etc.

 

A lot also depends on how good your launch parameters are. A shot from the edge of the envelope can even miss a stationary Hawk search radar by 5 to 50 meters.

 

For a dangerous short range target like an Osa, Tor, Tunguska, or Roland I might use several 25MPUs just to stay out of the dangerous portion of their envelope, but in most cases with things like MANPADS or AAA you're better served using something like a Vikhr. The HMMWVs and Bradley Linebacker units also basically use modified Stingers and count in the AAA/MANPADS category in terms of using Vikhrs in preference to ARMs.

[WinterH]

These missiles are not radar guided but rather passive radar homing. They guide themselves on to specific radar emitter they locked on prior to launch. If emitter is moving it often means it has ceased emitting, which will lead the missile losing track. Also, against moving and emitting radar guided anti aircraft artillery, the missiles won't prove accurate enough, it seems passive radar homing isn't precise enough to track moving targets, at least in DCS. That is how I killed T-55 with Kh-25MPU a few times :D it missed the moving OSA and T-55 was right behind it :D. There you go, situational fire and forget antitank missile for Su-25 :).