Mig-15 vs. F-86, low level turn fight

[Ramstein]

http://acepilots.com/planes/f86_sabre.html

 

Last night we were doing a low level fight against the Mig-15's and they kept on our 6's in lots and lots of low level on the deck flying and turning.

The F-86 burns off a lot of speed in tight turns.

 

Of course the Mig's were AI, although a person can fly them in the server if they want. :joystick:

[jester_]

From what I understand, AI aircraft use simple flight models, not the same flight models we are limited to. It's the same reason an AI P-51 will survive 5 hits from the K-4's 30mm cannon with no performance loss.

[Zimmerdylan]

Yeah...I sure wish they could or would fix the whole semi invincible AI problem. I went round and round with a Mig until it finally ran me out of fuel. I was right down on the deck with this thing.There were times that I wanted to see just how hard I could push it and I was cutting in so tight that 80% of the screen was totally black and I could barely see the Mig in the center of the screen. I sustained these turns for 20 seconds at a time and the d@mn mig was still cutting to my inside. It's crazy. All of that while he was streaming white and black smoke.

I am guessing that to give the AI a more complex model would seriously cut into game performance. So I suppose it's a sacrifice I'm willing to live with. But It's pretty disheartening at times.

[Zilch]

Just filled a MiG-15 with over 150 half inch holes. It flew like it was fresh from the factory.

 

Eventually I got a cockpit hit and killed the AI pilot but had to circle it to the deck to make sure it wasn't playing possum.

[WinterH]

Yesterday I've fought AI MiG-15 for first time in many, many months.

 

After frustrating myself in F-86 for about an hour, I've went ahead and frustrated myself a bit more by trying to gun MiG-15 down inside a MiG-21. Whole deal ended with putting two R-3Rs into pesky thing.

 

After more than a year, AI MiG-15 is still unconvincing.

 

What's pretty funny is, AI is either way too easy as in other planes, or supernatural as in this one.

[QuiGon]

I just had some low level dogfights against human MiG-15s. I always lost but that might be because of my not-so-great dogfighting skills. The turn rates seemed pretty comparable at least.

[Exorcet]

Don't go too low in the F-86 if you're fighting the MiG. You need to give yourself room to dive and zoom climb. The AI does not respect the 6.5 g limit of the MiG pilot, so you can't really out turn it.

 

The most reliable way I find to beat it is to force it into vertical loops, build up energy as you follow the MiG down, then when it's at the top of the loop pull hard and hit it if you can. Then repeat.

 

Less commonly, if you can force it to follow you in a dive from high enough, it will reach the Mach .92 speed limit and slow down. In the F-86 you can keep your speed and gain an energy advantage. Use this to climb and make the AI follow. You should both stall at about the same time, but you will be higher. Keep going straight up until you stall to keep the MiG from "thrust vectoring" on to your tail.

[Hummingbird]

This is a copy paste from a previous post of mine regarding how these two aircraft match up after hours of exhaustive testing:

 

"Below 600 km/h the MiG-15bis will outturn the Sabre in a sustained level turn as the MiG pilot no longer struggles with G-loc below this speed. The Sabre ofcourse still enjoys an instantanuous turn rate advantage at all speeds, however below 600 km/h it lacks the thrust to keep its energy up, thus if the fight is forced below this speed then it is time to start a scissors as the MiG will have a hard time following this. Should the Sabre pilot find himself running out of energy at height however it is worth remembering that the Sabre picks up energy in dives faster than the MiG.

 

Above 650 km/h however the Sabre holds its energy better and enjoys the advantage of its G-suit as well as lighter controls, leading to a marked advantage in maneuverability, esp. in roll."

 

In short when flying the Sabre you should not allow yourself to be sucked into sustained level turn fights with the MiG, and esp. not at low altitude, as the MiG enjoys an advantage here due to its lower thrust to weight ratio allowing it to maintain a higher load factor. However the Sabre is a much more responsive aircraft (esp. at speeds greater than 650 km/h), is faster straight and level and it will pick up speed in dives faster than the MiG as well.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Hummingbird

[Stuge]

The AI Mig-15 is fantastic. It can be used as a decent sparring partner! Of course you want to fly Mig-15 yourself for the best practice scenario and challenge!

 

All my tests indicate the Sabre to be inferior to Mig-15 in performance.

[Zimmerdylan]

A testimonial to the insane AI Mig15's super powers. This fight went on for another ten minutes before I finally downed the thing.

That plane flew like it didn't have a care in the world............

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2015 by Zimmerdylan

[Kev2go]

The AI Mig-15 is fantastic. It can be used as a decent sparring partner! Of course you want to fly Mig-15 yourself for the best practice scenario and challenge!

 

All my tests indicate the Sabre to be inferior to Mig-15 in performance.

 

orly?

 

seems like someone is forgetting the Mig15s very poor control surfaces at high speeds or Its roll rate even at normal speeds, or that the sabre boasts top speed advantage.

 

You can't really call the Mig15bis a superior plane to the F-86F. It wouldn't really be fitting especially taking the sabres more sophisticated tech such as the radar ranging gun unit into consideration.

 

Truth be told you cant truley call either of these planes superior to each other. both have advantages and disadvantages.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Kev2go

[Exorcet]

I don't have a problem with someone calling the AI MiG superior. The g-suit advantage, aim advantage, and control advantage all go away against the AI. The F-86 is still faster than the AI MiG, but the AI does not need to concern itself with speed until the moment it exceeds its limits.

[Kev2go]

I don't have a problem with someone calling the AI MiG superior. The g-suit advantage, aim advantage, and control advantage all go away against the AI. The F-86 is still faster than the AI MiG, but the AI does not need to concern itself with speed until the moment it exceeds its limits.

 

and thats another why fighting players is more enjoyable, due to the AI' being to perfectly pilot the plane and only uses a simplified model, and happnes to a 6th sense when it comes ot situational awareness.

[Stuge]

orly?

 

seems like someone is forgetting the Mig15s very poor control surfaces at high speeds or Its roll rate even at normal speeds, or that the sabre boasts top speed advantage.

 

You can't really call the Mig15bis a superior plane to the F-86F. It wouldn't really be fitting especially taking the sabres more sophisticated tech such as the radar ranging gun unit into consideration.

 

Truth be told you cant truley call either of these planes superior to each other. both have advantages and disadvantages.

 

Of course I meant that on average Mig-15 is superior. The main reason is the higher thrust which means better acceleration, turns, climbs.

 

Good high speed performance of Sabre means it can run away, especially in a dive. But that is a defensive advantage only if you consider 1v1.

 

The radar gunsight is nice, but not useful if the target is evasive. It's hard to put a nice long burst on a jinking target, and with these Sabres and Mig15s the chance of overshoot while pursuing and gunning is extremely high. And this is where the powerful guns of Mig-15 shine: you only need that one short perfect burst from point blank range, and if you can do that reliably, it will do the job, even if you overshoot in the process. You don't have to drill through the target like with the .50 cals!

 

For me the only significant disadvantage of the Mig-15 is poor visibility from cockpit. All those bars are really in the way!

[Kev2go]

Of course I meant that on average Mig-15 is superior. The main reason is the higher thrust which means better acceleration, turns, climbs.

 

Good high speed performance of Sabre means it can run away, especially in a dive. But that is a defensive advantage only if you consider 1v1.

 

The radar gunsight is nice, but not useful if the target is evasive. It's hard to put a nice long burst on a jinking target, and with these Sabres and Mig15s the chance of overshoot while pursuing and gunning is extremely high. And this is where the powerful guns of Mig-15 shine: you only need that one short perfect burst from point blank range, and if you can do that reliably, it will do the job, even if you overshoot in the process. You don't have to drill through the target like with the .50 cals!

 

For me the only significant disadvantage of the Mig-15 is poor visibility from cockpit. All those bars are really in the way!

 

 

Id say being able to engage and disengage at will is a not just defensive but a significant advantage. Using this with the right energy management i have been able to escape mig15 quite a few times and lead attempting pursuer(s) back to friendlies if i found myself low on fuel or in a tough bind.

 

and i find its harder to shoot down maneuvering targets with the low rof and low ammo count Derp guns on the mig15. 23mm have an okay rof but 37 is just too slow. Which is why the very fast ROF 50s are arguably better suited for Fighter vs Fighter coupled with its radar ranging unit even if it means putting more rounds into a player.

 

but that just another indication of thier design philosophy. The Mig15 was a interceptor first, fighter second, meant to shoot down bombers while the F86 was meant to take on fighters.

 

Rather than just doing what most people do and shooting at the fuselage all day and complaining thier target is hard to take down. The idea is to aim for the Wings not the Fuselage. The 50s can still be like buzzsaws against wings.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Kev2go

[Art-J]

Since the dawn of the internet and online flight simming, only few players bothered to learn high-speed, high-altitude combat, with most people just ending up turning and burning down low. DCS is no exception and the future combat sims won't be exception either.

 

That's why MiG is and will be more competitive from average Joe's point of view.

[Stuge]

F-86 cannot just disengage at will, because its engines lack the kick of the mig. It needs a dive to the speeds where the mig's high-speed problems come to life...

[RoflSeal]

At low level, and you have a MiG on your tail that is close and you want to get distance, best thing to do is to constantly use your roll and change direction, even at low speeds, the MiG cannot match the Saber. Past 300knts Saber is in a different league.

 

Sabre has an amazing ability to change direction compared to the MiG at pretty much all speeds.