DCS: AJS-37 Viggen Discussion

[Muppetlord]

I really don't see what's so fun about the F-5. I doubt it will match the Viggen in detail...But hey, I wont say no to more DCS aircraft!

[King_Hrothgar]

^The F-5E has seen extensive combat over the years, most notably fighting MiG-21Bis's where the two are very evenly matched. The plane is also well known for superb handling characteristics and simply being a blast to fly. That's it's appeal. It happens to be #1 on my western fighter wishlist, easily beating the F-4, F-14, F-15 and F-16. The F-18C is a close second though.

 

The AJS-37's appeal is being one of those funky Swedish planes no one but Swedes buy (in real life). To me, that doesn't mean much since I'm not Swedish. I'm mostly interested in a supersonic striker with guided missiles which the AJS-37 provides. I think it will be fun to use on 104th's server, but I doubt I'll mess with it much outside of that.

 

As for quality, I expect they will be comparable. Both BST and LNS have released good quality products so far. The F-5E probably won't have a campaign while the AJS-37 likely will, but I don't care for static campaigns in flight sims anyways. So that just isn't a concern for me.

[WinterH]

F-5 and Viggen are the two modules I'm looking forward most to.

 

Like Hrothgar said above, F-5E has seen combat over various parts of the Globe, and both has been a historical opponent to, and is in a similar class with MiG-21Bis. Also, it just a pretty little needle of a fighter jet :).

 

So it has quite some appeal for many of us.

 

But, for me personally, Viggen is even more appealing :). I'll be a happy simmer with both :)

 

But with so many exciting modules coming, it seems my wallet won't be so happy this year :music_whistling:

[mattebubben]

^The F-5E has seen extensive combat over the years, most notably fighting MiG-21Bis's where the two are very evenly matched. The plane is also well known for superb handling characteristics and simply being a blast to fly. That's it's appeal. It happens to be #1 on my western fighter wishlist, easily beating the F-4, F-14, F-15 and F-16. The F-18C is a close second though.

 

The AJS-37's appeal is being one of those funky Swedish planes no one but Swedes buy (in real life). To me, that doesn't mean much since I'm not Swedish. I'm mostly interested in a supersonic striker with guided missiles which the AJS-37 provides. I think it will be fun to use on 104th's server, but I doubt I'll mess with it much outside of that.

 

As for quality, I expect they will be comparable. Both BST and LNS have released good quality products so far. The F-5E probably won't have a campaign while the AJS-37 likely will, but I don't care for static campaigns in flight sims anyways. So that just isn't a concern for me.

 

Just a minor note about funky swedish planes no one but sweden buys ^^

 

3 out of the 5 swedish Jet fighters where exported (J29 Tunnan to austria J35 Draken to Denmark, Finland and Austria and now the Jas 39 Gripen to Hungary, Czech republic, south africa ,,Thailand ,Brazil and with more customers to come)

 

only the Viggen (saab 37) and Lansen (Saab 32) did not have any export customers.

 

And the Viggen was very close to a deal with india

(that apparently was stopped by the US by blocking the sale)

 

So while its true that Sweden has always been the largest operator of the swedish built aircraft plenty of other nations have been interested in them ^^

Edited February 8, 2016 by mattebubben

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Just a minor note about funky swedish planes no one but sweden buys ^^

 

3 out of the 5 swedish Jet fighters where exported (J29 Tunnan to austria J35 Draken to Denmark, Finland and Austria and now the Jas 39 Gripen to Hungary, Czech republic, south africa ,,Thailand ,Brazil and with more customers to come)

 

only the Viggen (saab 37) and Lansen (Saab 32) did not have any export customers.

 

And the Viggen was very close to a deal with india

(that apparently was stopped by the US by blocking the sale)

 

So while its true that Sweden has always been the largest operator of the swedish built aircraft plenty of other nations have been interested in them ^^

 

So, time to paint up the AJS-37 as a 37E and give it various NATO colors!

[dartuil]

I dont care F-5 , only hornet and Viggen for me in 2016.

Not that I hate BST but the variant.

[Chrinik]

Like Hrothgar said above, F-5E has seen combat over various parts of the Globe, and both has been a historical opponent to, and is in a similar class with MiG-21Bis. Also, it just a pretty little needle of a fighter jet :).

 

Uhm...similar class? At face value, the F-5Es only air-to-air armament is two (maybe four) Sidewinders and that´s it.

While the plane may perform better, two heatseekers compared to a plane that carries both radar-guided and much more heatseekers.

 

It will be interesting tho. The Viggen atleast can carry six sidewinders.

[mattebubben]

Uhm...similar class? At face value, the F-5Es only air-to-air armament is two (maybe four) Sidewinders and that´s it.

While the plane may perform better, two heatseekers compared to a plane that carries both radar-guided and much more heatseekers.

 

It will be interesting tho. The Viggen atleast can carry six sidewinders.

 

They are in the same Size /role category and the F-5E is very much a close in fighter.

 

 

And 2 Aim-9s is enough when it comes to inteception / escort missions.

 

But its no air superiority fighter (but neither is the mig-21)

 

and if we get the Aim-9P4 or P5 then we will have missiles are are more capable then those on the mig-21 (All aspect IR)

 

The F-5E and Mig-21 will be comparable with the F-5 having the advantage in close in fighting.

 

And the AJS-37 is not a fighter.

 

So while its capable in defending itself against a Mig-21 its radar etc are not optimised for air-air combat.

 

But a F-5E should be the better fighter of the 3.

 

The amount of missiles you can carry is not everything, what matters is if you are able to get into a good position to where they will hit.

[Custard]

Uhm...similar class? At face value, the F-5Es only air-to-air armament is two (maybe four) Sidewinders and that´s it.

While the plane may perform better, two heatseekers compared to a plane that carries both radar-guided and much more heatseekers.

 

It will be interesting tho. The Viggen atleast can carry six sidewinders.

If you're loading the MiG up with the full 6 missiles, you're doing it wrong. An F-5 should have no trouble with anything but the most lightly loaded of Fishbeds in a turn fight.

[WinterH]

Yes, they are in a similar class, lightweight fighter bombers with short range radars. If F-5E gets all aspect sidewinder variants, 2x sidewinders will be better than anything MiG-21Bis can load anyway.

 

Before R-3R argument start to fly, yes it is a good thing to have but, it is not the death ray it used to be anymore, even AI can often dodge it in a long range head on shot, so did my friends whom I tried it against often.

 

Edit : Wow... just realized this is the Viggen thread, I though this was F-5 one when replying. Sooo... may be we move F-5 related parts to where it belong and stop highjacking this one :).

[Custard]

Edit : Wow... just realized this is the Viggen thread, I though this was F-5 one when replying. Sooo... may be we move F-5 related parts to where it belong and stop highjacking this one :).

I think we'll be fine, it's tangentially related anyway, but back to the topic at hand...

 

Since LN will be modeling the Swedish designation of the AIM-9L, I do hope we see this missile added to all the other western jets that carried it too.

[Nerd1000]

I think we'll be fine, it's tangentially related anyway, but back to the topic at hand...

 

Since LN will be modeling the Swedish designation of the AIM-9L, I do hope we see this missile added to all the other western jets that carried it too.

 

Should be the same as the 9M only with a smokey motor and slightly less CM resistance, right?

[Custard]

Should be the same as the 9M only with a smokey motor and slightly less CM resistance, right?

Afaik, exactly that.

[ChoSeungWan]

After researching the Viggen, I'm really excited. First proper attack jet, great looking cockpit and radar too. Can't wait to be culturally enriched by this plane!

[Sim Flyer]

I am a litle confused about how good the AJS-37's radar actually was, as far as i can understand it can spot air targets for you and show you the distance (and maybe slave AIM9 seekerhead to the target) and i also believe i read somewhere it can also be used to find ships and lock them on but can it also be used to find targets when over land or it is the MK1 eyeball for that?

[Skjold]

I am a litle confused about how good the AJS-37's radar actually was, as far as i can understand it can spot air targets for you and show you the distance (and maybe slave AIM9 seekerhead to the target) and i also believe i read somewhere it can also be used to find ships and lock them on but can it also be used to find targets when over land or it is the MK1 eyeball for that?

 

You are correct about the ships and the rangefinding to airplanes, but as far as i know you can't slave the seekers to it. I have no clue about its ground mapping capabilities, somebody here whos way more well versed then me will probably reply soon enough.

[RaXha]

I am a litle confused about how good the AJS-37's radar actually was, as far as i can understand it can spot air targets for you and show you the distance (and maybe slave AIM9 seekerhead to the target) and i also believe i read somewhere it can also be used to find ships and lock them on but can it also be used to find targets when over land or it is the MK1 eyeball for that?

 

You are correct about the ships and the rangefinding to airplanes, but as far as i know you can't slave the seekers to it. I have no clue about its ground mapping capabilities, somebody here whos way more well versed then me will probably reply soon enough.

 

I'll check the flight manual, just a second! :book:

[QuiGon]

I thought it is not possible to lock air targets with that radar?

[RaXha]

I thought it is not possible to lock air targets with that radar?

 

It isn't, it can just be used to ranging air targets. Regarding the capability of the ground mapping component of the radar it says the following:

 

"The PS-37/A is a reconnaissance monopulse radar used for recon of sea and air targets and to aid navigation. it can also be used for:

Updating the INS by referencing a known location

Attacks with RB 04E

Attacks with Rockets/Cannon against ground targets

Attacks with IR Missiles against Air targets

Attacks with Rb 05 against Air targets

Obstacle indication"

 

There probable is more detailed info on the section for each of the above mentioned weapons but i don't have the time to check right now. :P

 

It's on page 25 of this document if anyone wants to read ahead. :P

 

Edit: ok, so i read ahead a bit on the section about the Rb 05 and if i understand correctly what the radar does is measure the distance to the selected target and gives an "ok" when it is within the allowed firing range. I suspect it's more or less the same with all of the weapons. I would suspect this means that the radar can be used to scan for sea, air and ground targets. The Rb 04 (anti ship missile) will find a target autonomously when it has been dropped and it has reached its cruising altitude, in this case the radar is just used to tell when you are within the optimum firing range.

Edited February 9, 2016 by RaXha

[renhanxue]

"Fixtagning" means updating the inertial navigation system's position by checking the distance and bearing to a known target with a known location (usually a radar reflector or beacon).

[ShadoWw]

It isn't, it can just be used to ranging air targets. Regarding the capability of the ground mapping component of the radar it says the following:

 

"The PS-37/A is a reconnaissance monopulse radar used for recon of sea and air targets and to aid navigation. it can also be used for:

Ranging (Note: The Swedish word is "fixtagning" is this the correct translation?)

Attacks with RB 04E

Attacks with Rockets/Cannon against ground targets

Attacks with IR Missiles against Air targets

Attacks with Rb 05 against Air targets

Obstacle indication"

 

There probable is more detailed info on the section for each of the above mentioned weapons but i don't have the time to check right now. :P

 

It's on page 25 of this document if anyone wants to read ahead. :P

 

Nvm i failed my response

 

Admin can remove this

[RaXha]

"Fixtagning" means updating the inertial navigation system's position by checking the distance and bearing to a known target with a known location (usually a radar reflector or beacon).

 

Thanks!

[mattebubben]

I am a litle confused about how good the AJS-37's radar actually was, as far as i can understand it can spot air targets for you and show you the distance (and maybe slave AIM9 seekerhead to the target) and i also believe i read somewhere it can also be used to find ships and lock them on but can it also be used to find targets when over land or it is the MK1 eyeball for that?

 

The Radar is primarily an air-ground radar and as such it does not have the abillity to lock a target with the radar.

 

The way it works against Air targets is it worked the same as in the Mapping mode but instead of aiming the radar towards the ground and scanning the terrain it was scanning a section of sky.

 

And since there was no Terrain there only aerial targets would show up as return targets on the radar screen.

 

You would not be able to lock up or select targets and the radar was not able to follow targets (slewing the radar antenna to keep targets in sight) all of that was done manually.

 

So its effectiveness was ever dependent on the Pilots skill.

 

It was also possible to use it in a limited look down scenario since radar returns of aircraft would be closer then the ground behind (depending on the altitude of the target) and an experienced pilot would know what to look for and could also use filters to further improve the abillity to see air targets even with terrain in the backround (though it was no easy process)

 

And while the AJS 37 was not able to slew the seeker to a target the pilot was able to uncage the seeker after the seeker had found a target and as such allowing for more manuvering without loosing the target lock of the seekerhead.

 

When it comes to the Anti ship duties i dont know as much.

 

The RB 04E is an active missile (as is the later and more advanced RB 15F)

 

and as such it carried its own onboard radar seeker and was a fire and forget weapon.

 

It also had a Home on Jam abillity against strong ECM targets.

 

There should be some targeting process allowing the pilots to select specific targets within a group of ships.

 

But i dont know how the exact Targeting selection process worked but il try looking.

 

I also think it would be possible to "Maddog" the missile by launching it without look towards a area with enemy ship and let the seeker pick a target itself but thats just speculation as i dont have any proof on that point.

 

Edit: This is just Speculating.

 

But one guess for the way the targeting worked could be that you used the radar to fix a position (where the targeted ship was) and if you could then give the navigational information to the missile and then launch it the missile would then fly towards the designated area and when it got close enough to where its onboard radar could see the target it would lock on and then begin its attack.

 

But again thats just speculating since i dont have any better proof or idea.

Edited February 9, 2016 by mattebubben

[RaXha]

There should be some targeting process allowing the pilots to select specific targets within a group of ships.

 

But i dont know how the exact Targeting selection process worked but il try looking.

 

I also think it would be possible to "Maddog" the missile by launching it without look towards a area with enemy ship and let the seeker pick a target itself but thats just speculation as i dont have any proof on that point.

 

As i understood it you had three options:

1. The missile locks on the first target it finds after reaching it's cruising altitude

2. The missile locks on to the strongest ECM target (lock on jam as you said)

3. The missile selects a random target within a group of ships.

 

Just like the doctrine of the time it appears to be designed to counter a large fleet of ships, so each pilot wouldn't necessarily have to select the specific ship to attack, the goal was to sink all of them. :P

 

This is the way i interpret the manual, but I might have misunderstood completetly as always! :pilotfly:

[renhanxue]

The rb 04E is completely autonomous and you can't influence its target selection from the aircraft. You set its targeting mode on the ground, not from the aircraft while in flight. You can set it to either single or group mode, where single mode just locks on the first target it sees and group mode is supposed to split missiles among a group of ships (exactly how this works is not clear from the flight manual). Alternatively, you can set it to home-on-jam or normal (single or group) plus home-on-jam as a backup (I think - that last one is from a secondary source, the original flight manual just says it has "two alternative homing modes").

 

Once you launch it, it goes off and does its thing no matter what you do. It stands to reason you can't lock it on targets because at typical launch distances (20 km, ish) the missile's flight altitude of 8-12 meters is well under the radar horizon from the target, so even if the aircraft handed a target over to it, it couldn't keep a lock on it during its flight.