DCS: AJS-37 Viggen Discussion

[Snail]

It would be nice if the volumes 2 and 3 of the manual also popped up somewhere ;-)

[renhanxue]

Still waiting for declassification of the 80's strike squadron tactics stuff, requesting more stuff isn't going to make it go faster.

[Snail]

Still waiting for declassification of the 80's strike squadron tactics stuff, requesting more stuff isn't going to make it go faster.

 

Strike squadron tactics may stay classified for a long time I guess.

[renhanxue]

Strike squadron tactics may stay classified for a long time I guess.

No, I think it's gonna get declassified no problem, E1 hasn't been a thing for over 20 years and neither has the anti-ship missile spam doctrine. It just takes a long time for the poor overworked archivists to get around to looking at stuff.

[MYSE1234]

Right, so I was bored and decided to make a 3D model of a MJ2 submunition from the BK90.

Here's what I came up with:

There are 10 rows of indentations. Each indentation is 3.3mm wide, +- a bit and about 6.5mm deep.

 

As you can see it's fairly close to the real deal, except for the lighting.

Hope this can help in estimating it's effectiveness.

 

[Tackle]

Is there a place where I can read up on the RL Squads that used the AJS?

[microvax]

Right, so I was bored and decided to make a 3D model of a MJ2 submunition from the BK90.

Here's what I came up with:

There are 10 rows of indentations. Each indentation is 3.3mm wide, +- a bit and about 6.5mm deep.

 

As you can see it's fairly close to the real deal, except for the lighting.

Hope this can help in estimating it's effectiveness.

 

 

Really noice !!

 

So 10 rows with 5 and 10 rows with 6 dents ?

 

That still leaves us with 73gram EFPs, which still gives it 84% of the muzzle energy of a 2a42 which should still be sufficient to penetrate anything which isnt a MBT within 100m.

 

But distribution should be better since the dents are "firing" the EFPs with 18degrees between them and not 23 like with my expected 16.

 

Funny bit is I did calculate two sets of 10, but didnt believe it and did go with the pessimistic 16. :DD might update the graphic at some point. I would say that is definitely good news, since its still enough to take out anything dangerous to yourself like SPAAG and SAMs and that probably even out of 100m, while increasing the density.

 

RIP DCS engine though 2640 EFPs per BK90 now so 10560 EFP per Viggen load. Ehehehe. :D

Edited November 6, 2016 by microvax

[microvax]

I mean we did talk about Viggen Training in Mirage before and while there is a technical possibility to rearm/refuel at FARPs, it didnt work that time.

 

But it definitely shows the liability of operation from in the middle of nowhere roadbases in DCS. :D

 

[mattebubben]

Is there a place where I can read up on the RL Squads that used the AJS?

 

You mean Squads as in what Squadrons?.

 

And also are you just interested in those who Flew the AJS 37 or the Attack Viggen as a whole

 

(Since some Attack Units where not given the updated AJS 37 but were instead disbanded or Given the Jas 39 Gripen).

 

 

First Lets start with the structure / organization of the Swedish Air force units and the names etc.

(Note im not an expert in this area so i would be open to corrections if somebody knows more then i do).

 

The term for a Air Wing in Swedish is a Flygflottilj

(Directly translates to FlightFlotilla)

and its typically organized into 2-3 Squadrons with 2 being minimum.

(and some had as many as 4).

 

The term Squadron (Skvadron in Swedish) is not used for fixed wing aircraft but rather the term Division is used (so a Flygflotillj will usually consist of 2-3 divisions)

 

The Swedish wings that operated the attack Viggen (AJ 37) in a primary role were F6,F7,F15

Il start by using F6 as an example when explaining the structure etc.

 

F6 (F is short for Flygflottilj) stationed at Karlsborg in Sweden

they had 3 Divisions 2 of whom flew the AJ 37 attack viggen and 1 flying the recce variants SF 37 and SH 37.

 

While the testing etc for the AJS 37 was done on F6 the unit was closed down in 1994 before the AJS 37 entered service.

 

All of the wings had names using the Swedish phonetic alphabet and the latter according to the number of the wing

and each division in a wing had its own color and these Names / colors would be used for Callsigns and to easily be able to ID the unit of an aircraft.

 

For example the F6 wing had the over all Callsign Filip

(F being the 6th letter in the alphabet)

and each of the Divisions had a color,

1st Division = Red (Röd in Swedish)

2nd Division = Blue (Blå In Swedish)

3rd Division =Yellow (Gul in Swedish)

4th Division = White (though the 4th division was usually not a fighting division but rather a non flying or training division)

5th Division = Black. (Svart in Swedish)

 

So the First Division of the F6 wing would be called Filip Red (First Division 6th wing)

 

And the Callsign for an aircraft would be the name (letter) of the Wing and the tail number so for example.

 

This aircrafts callsign would be Filip 02 (And it would be a Part of Filip Red = 1st Division of the 6th wing as can be seen due to the tail number being in Red).

 

Each Division also had a Number Designation that was decided depending on the parent wing where in for example the 1st Division (red) of the 6th wing (Flygflotilj) would be the 61st division and the second division (blue) would be the 62nd and so on.

 

Now that i have explained the naming schemes etc il get on to what other Units flew the AJ 37 and AJS 37.

 

The next unit that flew the attack Viggen (and it was also the First to have the Attack Viggen in service)

was F7 stationed at Såtenäs they had 2 divisions,

(71st and 72nd) flying the attack Viggen (First AJ and then the AJS) and its callsign was Gustav (G=7th letter)

they flew the Attack Viggen Operationally from 1973-1998 (at which point the Gripen Replaced it in both Divisions).

 

The third of the Wings that operated the Attack viggen from the Start (Early-Mid 70s) was the F15 wing stationed at Söderhamn

its callsign was Olle and it had two Divisions Olle Röd (First Division) being a Pure AJ 37 Attack Division and Olle Blå (Second Division) at first having a mix of AJ 37s and Sk 37s but in the 90s during the AJS 37 upgrades and the closing the F6 it finally got enough aircraft for two complete attack divisions.

 

And lastly we have F10 (Johan) that was originally a fighter Wing with 3 Divisions flying the J35 Draken fighter but that had its 1st Division

(101st Division) Re-Equipped with Attack and Recce Viggens in 1993 after the closing of the Attack divisions at F7 and the Recce Division at F17 and F13 it was also the last division flying the attack Viggen when it re-equipped with the Jas 39 in 2000-2001.

 

I hope that answers some of your questions.

Edited November 6, 2016 by mattebubben

[Sporg]

Right, so I was bored and decided to make a 3D model of a MJ2 submunition from the BK90.

Here's what I came up with:

There are 10 rows of indentations. Each indentation is 3.3mm wide, +- a bit and about 6.5mm deep.

 

As you can see it's fairly close to the real deal, except for the lighting.

Hope this can help in estimating it's effectiveness.

 

 

Really nice !!

 

So 10 rows with 5 and 10 rows with 6 dents ?

 

That still leaves us with 73gram EFPs, which still gives it 84% of the muzzle energy of a 2a42 which should still be sufficient to penetrate anything which isnt a MBT within 100m.

 

But distribution should be better since the dents are "firing" the EFPs with 18degrees between them and not 23 like with my expected 16.

 

Funny bit is I did calculate two sets of 10, but didnt believe it and did go with the pessimistic 16. :DD might update the graphic at some point. I would say that is definitely good news, since its still enough to take out anything dangerous to yourself like SPAAG and SAMs and that probably even out of 100m, while increasing the density.

RIP DCS engine though 2640 EFPs per BK90 now so 10560 EFP per Viggen load. Ehehehe. :D

Ouch, my fps hurts..

[Snail]

The AJS37 will definitively be a reason for me to buy DCS. I hope it will run OK on my rig, which is a 'few' years old: Intel dualcore 6750, 4Gb RAM, AMD Radeon 6950. Would that be sufficient for an acceptable framerate at 1920x1080?

[QuiGon]

The AJS37 will definitively be a reason for me to buy DCS. I hope it will run OK on my rig, which is a 'few' years old: Intel dualcore 6750, 4Gb RAM, AMD Radeon 6950. Would that be sufficient for an acceptable framerate at 1920x1080?

 

You don't have to buy DCS. It's free. You can just download it here: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/downloads/world/stable/

The hardware requirements are listed there as well and as you can see, it will be difficult for your PC to run this game. :(

Edited November 6, 2016 by QuiGon

[ram0506]

I think your rig won`t meet the minimum requirements of DCS world that can be seen here: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/downloads/world/stable/

[Snail]

I already was afraid that I needed upgrading. This is a perfect excuse :-)

[Tackle]

I hope that answers some of your questions.

 

Great Info as always!

Thank you very much!

 

Is the tailnumber part of the serial, or did they just start from 01 for each Division? And was there a maximum/ typical number of airframes per Division?

[renhanxue]

Squadrons were dimensioned for keeping one flight of four aircraft in the air or at highest readiness 24/7. The flight of four was the normal tactical unit, but for most missions the squadron would operate two flights at once. This required at least 16 pilots, and there were 108 AJ 37's manufactured for six squadrons, which gives 18 airframes per squadron (so really, 16 plus two spares to account for crashes and other write-offs during the service life of the aircraft).

 

I think tail numbers were initially assigned based on the last digits in the aircraft's serial number but that soon led to conflicts and aircraft were reassigned between wings and got new numbers and so on, so that convenient relationship was often broken. Tail numbers were assigned on a wing level btw and there's no way of telling which squadron an aircraft belonged to based on the tail number. Numbering was not sequential either.

 

Example: the only flying AJS 37 today is "Gustav 52" (7-52), which has serial number 37098 (one of the last AJ 37's manufactured). No relation in that case and I know for a fact that F7 did not have all tail numbers between 1 and 51 assigned.

Edited November 6, 2016 by renhanxue

[mattebubben]

Well they dont start from 1 in a Division or even wing but i dont know as they dont always seem to match the Serial numbers as shown in the link below they often match the serial (atleast early on) but not always especially after having been transferred to a new division/wing the number might be changes so it no longer matches the serial.

 

And the normal number of aircraft in a Division was 8-12 aircraft with some times a few more + spares etc according to wiki.

(Edit: see Ren got there first with more complete info)

 

And for those interested the Serial ranges for the Different Viggen variants were as follows.

 

AJ 37 serial numbers 37001–37108

JA 37 serial numbers 37301–37449

SK 37 serial numbers 37801–37817

SH 37 serial numbers 37901–37927

SF 37 serial numbers 37950–37977

 

And there is also an interesting Wiki page

(in Swedish but i think it will still be interesting)

 

It details the info about the different aircraft and shows pretty much all the data on the different serials.

 

When they where completed when they were Scrapped or if/when they crashed as well as if they were upgraded and if so when they were upgraded.

 

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lista_%C3%B6ver_Saab_37_Viggen

 

Some Explanations first to let you guys more easily understand / navigate that page.

 

Flygplannummer is the serial code of the aircraft.

 

Godkänd means Accepted as in that is the date the aircraft was accepted by the airforce.

 

Kasserad means condemned as in when the aircraft was condemned / written of.

 

Haveri is the term used for a crash/accident that left the aircraft destroyed.

 

Bas/kod is Base/code and it shows the Codes (tail number) the Aircraft used as well as where it did so,

and if an aircraft has many it tells at what time it used what number.

 

For example Serial nr 37006 has 3 sets of codes,

FC-16, 7-06, 15-06 the first code FC-16 means that it was used by the Testing center to do tests at first and during that time it carried the Tail number 16,

 

7-06 means that it was delivered to F7 where it carried the Tail number 06 and then finally it was transferred to F15 where it also carried the number 06.

 

The next section determins if the aircraft had been upgraded or not and to what version if it was upgraded.

 

And then lastly you have Anmärkning meaning Observation/notes where it will state what happened to it,

If it was scrapped or sent to a museum etc or if it crashed where it did so.

 

And then there might be a Picture of the aircraft in question.

 

If anybody has anymore questions or need translations from something on that page feel free to ask.

Edited November 6, 2016 by mattebubben

[Tackle]

@renhanxue

@mattebubben

Thanks again, exactly what I was looking for!

[theOden]

I already was afraid that I needed upgrading. This is a perfect excuse :-)

Are you by any chance a horribly old Dutch e-pilot?

:D

 

/theOlden

[Snail]

Are you by any chance a horribly old Dutch e-pilot?

:D

 

/theOlden

 

............... guilty as charged......... ;)

[theOden]

Bingo.

I would say we now have the, by far, biggest Viggen fan onboard the hype train haha.

Great to see you here Snail.

Check PM :)

[Snooze]

And there is also an interesting Wiki page

(in Swedish but i think it will still be interesting)

 

It details the info about the different aircraft and shows pretty much all the data on the different serials.

 

When they where completed when they were Scrapped or if/when they crashed as well as if they were upgraded and if so when they were upgraded.

 

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lista_%C3%B6ver_Saab_37_Viggen

 

Some Explanations first to let you guys more easily understand / navigate that page.

 

There´s an awfully lot crashes reported on the 37-system even though it was a rather simple and trust-worthy aircraft to fly! But the operational behaviour of context really seemed to put pilots on the edge way to often.

[Snail]

Bingo.

I would say we now have the, by far, biggest Viggen fan onboard the hype train haha.

Great to see you here Snail.

Check PM :)

 

That's too much honour, IF it's an honour ;)

 

I read the PM: we have a plan :-)

[Pocket Sized]

The Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS) warns the pilot when coming too close to the terrain.

 

The GPWS is a warning system and must not be used for guidance

 

I would like to make a complaint relating to the bolded text from the JA-37 manual.

 

Please do not post false/misleading advice on the forums, thank you.

 

:megalol:

[Skjold]

There´s an awfully lot crashes reported on the 37-system even though it was a rather simple and trust-worthy aircraft to fly! But the operational behaviour of context really seemed to put pilots on the edge way to often.

 

That is due to a number of factors:

 

1. In the early years i think there were some technical issues with the platform which was later resolved. Don't have the details, Renhanxue or Mattebubben probably does.

 

2. Low flying doctrine, most sorties in the AJ would have been done just above tree top level or sea level, this is especially dangerous over the baltic (the main domain for the AJ 37) due to Spatial disorientation.

 

3. Dogfight training, Sweden had a policy of having dogfights "as close to the real thing as possible" which in return made them more dangerous. This mostly applies to the JA 37.

 

4. Road base doctrine, not the easiest thing in the world to operate from roads.

 

https://youtu.be/KEyY2Q37sYQ?t=3m34s

 

Service ceiling of the Viggen :music_whistling: