Mi-8 landing help thread

[FastForward]

Well I am so glad that we are getting good advise to help everyone and prove it does not have to be daunting:)

 

 

 

I won't get chance till wife goes out later. Is it in Nevada or Caucasus map?

 

When you feel the bird tilting to the right push cyclic left while pushing right with rudder. You will go up straighter :)

 

Thanks for the tip :thumbup:

[Zag]

Hello again everyone,

 

Just thought i should share some articles written by the brilliant EinsteinEP over at SimHq.

 

Now be warned, these were written back in the days of BlackShark 1 in 2009. They explain the way the autopilot and trimmer systems work in the Ka-50 but the logic is still the same in the Mi-8 (Please correct me if I'm wrong) and should be quite helpful to the new Mi-8 pilots among us.

 

These articles really helped me understand the autopilot system and fly the shark with its help instead of fighting against it and just using the flight director mode. That experience made the transition to the Mi-8 way easier.

 

DCS: Black Shark – Autopilot: Part 1: http://www.simhq.com/_air13/air_429a.html

 

DCS: Black Shark – Autopilot: Part 2: http://www.simhq.com/_air13/air_430a.html

 

DCS: Black Shark and the Trimmer: http://www.simhq.com/_air13/air_428a.html

 

Ps: Keep in mind that the Mi-8 doesn't have a flight director mode for the auto pilot so that section in the part 2 can be ignored.

[Rogue Trooper]

I never use the Doppler VVI.... Never!

For me this is extreme tiny instrument fixation when you need a far more Broad overall situational awareness.

 

The steam gauge VVI is just fine.

 

The MI-8 has the fabulous and I mean THE fabulous Field of view (FOV) setting. I suggest setting it to around 111 so that you can see the bottom of the center chin blister when zoomed out to 111. It ain't no coincidence that you can read those big ole numbers on the VVI when zoomed out.

Once the chopper shakes as she transitions into low speed, the chopper is telling you that you will now loose free lift and as gravity will never let you down... you will fall.

 

Zoom out!

 

The zoomed out FOV gives you a whole hunk of benefits:

 

1) you gain peripheral vision, this helps you notice a drop in altitude in relation to the ground objects to the left or right.... they are closer if you planned your landing right!

 

2) The VVI is within an eyes twitch of being read... the reading is instantaneous. you ain't even gotta read no numbers.... that dial position will tell you all you gotta know. dial starts dropping... collective starts increasing.

 

3) You can see more around you in tight landing zones.

 

This works for me.

 

As a side note; getting this big old girl to gently kiss mother earth once in ground effect and hovering, is real hard work.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Rogue Trooper

[Belgeode]

Thank you for making these, Simon. I have been flying the Hip for a while now, and my videos show some really rough landings. I would love to get better, and I think your series will really help me. I have also subscribed to you! Way to go sir!!

[Jowen G. Bruère-Dawson]

Come late, but really interresting thread !

[Cibit]

Thank you for making these, Simon. I have been flying the Hip for a while now, and my videos show some really rough landings. I would love to get better, and I think your series will really help me. I have also subscribed to you! Way to go sir!!

 

Your welcome my friend thanks for the kind words:)

[Grogshop]

I've had a massive improvement in my landings over the last week, having done over an hours worth of level flight to vertical landing transitions without crashing.

 

This can only work if you have a stick/throttle with an easy access rotary.

 

I dont have rudder pedals (yet) and so tried a bit of an experiment - I now use the top rotary on my X-55 throttle for my yaw control.

 

Pretty much all the issues I was having was caused by trying to use the twist function of the stick, while attempting to use it as the cyclic as well.

 

Now, my right hand is free to control the cyclic, left adjusts collective and left thumb adjusts the rudder. Its becoming second nature now - adjust collective with throttle, then yaw to suit with rotary. It's like a new machine, and its so satisfying from having transitioned from level flight to hover, and then landing, WITHOUT VRS!

[Cibit]

I never used an X55 but the slider on the X52 is what I used while waiting for replacement pedals, worked really well. Glad your getting the hang of landings:)

[snowsniper]

another helpfull advice here :music_whistling:

 

I'm now very precise in sling load thanks to that.

[sniperwolfpk5]

another helpfull advice here :music_whistling:

 

I'm now very precise in sling load thanks to that.

 

What special in these images?

[sniperwolfpk5]

OK got it you changed saturation

[CrimsonGhost]

I've had a massive improvement in my landings over the last week, having done over an hours worth of level flight to vertical landing transitions without crashing.

 

This can only work if you have a stick/throttle with an easy access rotary.

 

I dont have rudder pedals (yet) and so tried a bit of an experiment - I now use the top rotary on my X-55 throttle for my yaw control.

 

Pretty much all the issues I was having was caused by trying to use the twist function of the stick, while attempting to use it as the cyclic as well.

 

Now, my right hand is free to control the cyclic, left adjusts collective and left thumb adjusts the rudder. Its becoming second nature now - adjust collective with throttle, then yaw to suit with rotary. It's like a new machine, and its so satisfying from having transitioned from level flight to hover, and then landing, WITHOUT VRS!

 

Found this thread after way too many VRS incidents. I too have an X-55 and this may be the trick. I am also thinking it may have something to do with axis settings. I have noticed on this heli, and the KA-50, very little collective (throttle) movement, has a very big effect. I set mine up according to Chuck's guide, but maybe I need to tweak it around and actually learn how the saturation and curves work.

 

Strange part is when I first started flying the Mi-8, I had no issues landing. Now its almost as if I have forgotten everything.:doh:

[lmp]

I set mine up according to Chuck's guide, but maybe I need to tweak it around and actually learn how the saturation and curves work.

 

I don't think curves will help with collective control much. When it comes to cyclic and pedals, having finer control near the neutral position and coarser towards the edges makes sense, especially in combination with trim. But with the collective, you will not necessarily want the most precise control in any specific part of the axis range. The amount of collective you will need to hover or land will vary greatly with altitude, weight, etc. and you have no way to trim it out.

[AG-51_Razor]

I have been flying airplanes, mostly for pleasure, since 1972 and when I began getting interested in flight sims, I found it very difficult to adapt to the 2D world that most of my non-pilot buddies excelled at in sims like WarBirds, Aces High, IL-2 and now DCS. Over the years, I have learned that paying strict attention to the gages is very important - most of the time much more so than in real life - in order to get the performance out of the simulated plane. Well, in addition to flying around in airplanes for fun, I began flying helicopters in the army in 1976 and commercially since 1980 (still flying them today), and I find them even more difficult to fly on a desk top computer than airplanes and have traditionally avoided them like the plague! DCS has gotten me interested in them again, especially the Mi-8, and I have finally gotten to the point where I can hover around fairly well, but the transition from cruise flight to a hover is about the hardest thing I have ever tried to do in a flight sim!! I can tell you all that it is far easier to fly one of these in real life than on this damn computer! :joystick: Although I must admit that I have never even sat in a Mi-8, I do have about 1100 hrs in the UH-1H and it was a breeze compared to this on in the sim!

 

I really appreciate all of the posts in here and I can honestly say that they have been a huge help to me getting to where I am now.

[Grogshop]

Found this thread after way too many VRS incidents. I too have an X-55 and this may be the trick. I am also thinking it may have something to do with axis settings. I have noticed on this heli, and the KA-50, very little collective (throttle) movement, has a very big effect. I set mine up according to Chuck's guide, but maybe I need to tweak it around and actually learn how the saturation and curves work.

 

Strange part is when I first started flying the Mi-8, I had no issues landing. Now its almost as if I have forgotten everything.:doh:

 

I think the thing that really helped is that controlling rudder this way, every time you move the collective, you adjust the yaw.

 

I don't have any curves or saturation on the collective, but I do on the cyclic. I just couldn't seem to hover with a linear setup, but with some curves and saturation, I can now do it.

[anlq]

I have been flying airplanes, mostly for pleasure, since 1972 and when I began getting interested in flight sims, I found it very difficult to adapt to the 2D world that most of my non-pilot buddies excelled at in sims like WarBirds, Aces High, IL-2 and now DCS. Over the years, I have learned that paying strict attention to the gages is very important - most of the time much more so than in real life - in order to get the performance out of the simulated plane. Well, in addition to flying around in airplanes for fun, I began flying helicopters in the army in 1976 and commercially since 1980 (still flying them today), and I find them even more difficult to fly on a desk top computer than airplanes and have traditionally avoided them like the plague! DCS has gotten me interested in them again, especially the Mi-8, and I have finally gotten to the point where I can hover around fairly well, but the transition from cruise flight to a hover is about the hardest thing I have ever tried to do in a flight sim!! I can tell you all that it is far easier to fly one of these in real life than on this damn computer! :joystick: Although I must admit that I have never even sat in a Mi-8, I do have about 1100 hrs in the UH-1H and it was a breeze compared to this on in the sim!

 

I really appreciate all of the posts in here and I can honestly say that they have been a huge help to me getting to where I am now.

 

I have heard many RL pilots talk about this and I think it's true that flying on Desktop PC is far more difficult than in RL. Because in RL you have 5 (and maybe 6th) senses to control your aircraft/helicopter. You can easily notice the slightest movement of the bird and dont have to starring at instruments like in the sim. :thumbup: Besides, aircraft controller is of course more accurate and durable than few hundred bucks gaming controller. (that's why many folks here dont hesitate throwing money to mod the stick/throttle) :mad: :D

[EntropySG]

this is an excellent thread. I recently started learning the MI-8 and this is very helpful. Silly question, I cant find the manual for this product, anyone could post a link to some good reading material? For example, I cant figure out how the FM radio works, I manage to use Victor, Uniform and Hf but not FM

[Rogue Trooper]

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=134795

 

It is still being written, but this draft has most data and info.

1st post click the link.

[Rogue Trooper]

AG-51_Razor I have followed your comments through all the threads of all the different modules, but I see no statement to my question, So if a I may be so bold, can I ask what controllers you use and also do you use TrackIR?

Edited April 8, 2016 by Rogue Trooper

[AG-51_Razor]

Sorry Rogue Trooper, I must have missed your question previously. I have a Warthog with a 10cm extecsion and a set of Saitek combat rudder pedals and a pair of TM Cougar MFD's. I know, I know, there's no excuse for me to be so lame. :(

[AG-51_Razor]

I have heard many RL pilots talk about this and I think it's true that flying on Desktop PC is far more difficult than in RL. Because in RL you have 5 (and maybe 6th) senses to control your aircraft/helicopter. You can easily notice the slightest movement of the bird and dont have to starring at instruments like in the sim. :thumbup: Besides, aircraft controller is of course more accurate and durable than few hundred bucks gaming controller. (that's why many folks here dont hesitate throwing money to mod the stick/throttle) :mad: :D

 

Yes, it's the tactile feed back you get in a real aircraft that is missing in the desk top sims. This is especially troublesome for me in a simulation of the helicopter. Both the UH-1 and Mi-8 are very difficult for me to fly well. For example, in real life, it is fairly easy to take a helicopter from a 100 foot hover and accelerate down a runway to about 90-100 knots and perform a quick stop at the end of the runway to a steady hover of 100 feet. In the sim, this is particularly difficult for me to do, if not totally impossible. Invariably, I end up in a smoking hole due to "settling with power". I know it is just a matter of practice, practice and more practice....and I will get the hang of it eventually! :joystick:

Edited April 9, 2016 by AG-51_Razor
spelling

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I have heard many RL pilots talk about this and I think it's true that flying on Desktop PC is far more difficult than in RL.

 

Sim flying is made harder by narrower FOV, our desktop controllers and general lack of situational awareness we lose from not being there, to name a few.

 

That said, here are some of the aspects that I think make RL flying difficult:

 

Weather. Difficult to put into words, but I find RL flying feels that much more dynamic. Even light winds are not perfectly steady, requiring constant corrections to be made, much more so than in sims.

 

Accurate flying. Straight and level, climbs/descents, turns, speed control, departures/approaches. It's easy to be sloppy with these items in a sim, but you can't get away with it in RL. And you've got to maintain accuracy while navigating and communicating properly, which again in the sim it's easy to be sloppy with (or not bother with entirely).

 

Mistakes. In a sim you've not got someone to tell you off if you screw up (in fact in a sim, you might not even know you've made a mistake).

 

Whether someone will find sim flying or RL flying harder I think actually depends on the person. I started playing with flightsims when I was very young so I'm used to them. I initially found RL flying harder.

[willatc]

I'm not an expert but in my opinion the most important thing to keep an eye on is the VSI. As everybody is saying dont drop below 3m/s on the VSI when descending. To be honest I dont really look at the speed (unless during the en-route phase in order to avoid overspeeding-keep it below 23ish on the ASI) as landing is a visual manoevre and you can easily tell if you are approaching to fast by looking out of the window (i'll probably get a slap for saying that).

So when you are making your approach to land its important to stay one step ahead of the helicopter. Try to constantly anticipate what its going to do then add tiny corrections to prevent it from doing so. That way, I can keep the VSI exactly how I want.

If I drop or raise the nose slightly in the manoeuvre I will increase/decrease collective in anticipation so the heli doesn't have the chance to go out of control.

Before you know it, you will be adding lots of tiny corrections without even thinking about it.

 

I went from a success rate of 1 landing out of 50 attempts to pretty much 100% success rate and it took me 10 minutes. Seriously. All I did was watch the VSI like a hawk. Thats literally all I did. Just dont let the VSI fluctuate violently (although sometimes this is normal if you are manoevring or doing other stuff at higher speeds etc)

 

Also, you must be patient. Shes a heavy old bird but if you respect her and do not rush things, she'll produce the goods. Take your time when landing. Dont just slam it down when you are 50 feet above the landing zone, use that last few feet to fine tune your input even more and you'll be landing it on eggshells no problem. Small clearings in the forest will start to become relatively easy to land in and you'll soon be looking for harder challenges.

 

Vertical landings are no different. Once you are pretty much established in the hover slowly descend directly over the landing area. Just keep the collective input to an absolute minimum. Maybe descend closer to 2m/s on the VSI and just take your time. Don't forget to anticipate what you think the heli is going to do so you can calmly add the relevant input on the collective.

 

Since being able to land this thing, I now like it 1000 times more than I used to!

[AG-51_Razor]

That's exactly what I am starting to concentrate on myself! 3m/sec is about right too. One thing I am doing to practice, is quick stops on the runway. Start on one end and accelerate to 200+ KPH, then begin a gradual deceleration, holding about 100m altitude, to get stopped by the other end of the runway. It is not as easy as it sounds! But much easier in real life by far. :joystick:

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I'm not an expert but in my opinion the most important thing to keep an eye on is the VSI. As everybody is saying dont drop below 3m/s on the VSI when descending. To be honest I dont really look at the speed

 

Actually it should be the other way around. You can't judge your air speed visually so watch your ASI carefully. Pick your landing point, see where it is on the canopy then adjust your rate if descent to keep it in the same place. As you approach the landing spot, slowly bleed off speed until your speed and height reach 0 at the same time.

 

The only reason to not drop below 3m/s is to avoid VRS, but you won't get this if you keep your speed from dropping too low too early.

 

Keep your approaches shallow, this will make things easier.

 

ALWAYS land into wind if you can. It helps so much.

 

I've attached an example track.

mi8.trk

Edited April 17, 2016 by Flamin_Squirrel