[REPORTED] Model Visibility Issues

[GGTharos]

No, I'm saying that it isn't possible to simulate the full range of possibilities for visibility.

[lemoen]

No, I'm saying that it isn't possible to simulate the full range of possibilities for visibility.

 

 

 

Then we should err on the side of better visibility, to remove some frustration. Theres a bug at the moment though, will have to reassess when it is fixed.

 

 

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[Haukka81]

Model Visibility Discussion

 

Blaa , blaa and nobody remeber that AI super vision should fixed too... Tank's , planes all those react and see you in second. I dont care if i see 4 or 6nm , what maters is that AI wont "see" mee from 20nm out.

 

 

 

 

Sent when im drunk with my iphone near me :)

[GGTharos]

I'm fine with things being more visible inside 5nm - they should be. I intensely dislike the 'dot wars' of easily spottable camouflaged aircraft 20nm away.

 

Then we should err on the side of better visibility, to remove some frustration. Theres a bug at the moment though, will have to reassess when it is fixed.

 

 

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[lemoen]

I'm fine with things being more visible inside 5nm - they should be. I intensely dislike the 'dot wars' of easily spottable camouflaged aircraft 20nm away.

 

Exactly.

[NineLine]

I'm fine with things being more visible inside 5nm - they should be. I intensely dislike the 'dot wars' of easily spottable camouflaged aircraft 20nm away.

 

Totally agree, they should be spottable between 5-10nm, but not easy.

[GGTharos]

7 is the biggest average distance for something like an f15. You CAN see it further away, but you have to know where to look.

 

You can see a banking (plan view) f16 12nm away, again if you know where to look.

 

The sim just needs a really good transition to transparency that relates visible aircraft size and paint, as well as ensuring relatively uniform results across a bunch of display resolutions.

 

You shouldn't be able to just look around and randomly spot dots like it's nothing. And of course, that's the whole issue of seeing through cloud etc.

[AMEDooley]

I wasn't trying to run in my day job lol ;)! I do think this needs to be addressed so it's not so frustrating to find targets. This is after all a game that I would hope is meant to be fun.

[GGTharos]

If it's a fun game you want, turn on labels ... there's no reason to make targets super-easy to find in a simulator.

 

In fact, 'targets' would probably be trying to be less, not more visible ... actively. Something that doesn't really happen in-game ;)

[ShuRugal]

If it's a fun game you want, turn on labels ... there's no reason to make targets super-easy to find in a simulator.

 

That's contradictory even for you, mate.

[GGTharos]

Maybe because it's missing context, but I'm out of typing steam :)

[Dav IRL]

If it's a fun game you want, turn on labels ... there's no reason to make targets super-easy to find in a simulator.

 

In fact, 'targets' would probably be trying to be less, not more visible ... actively. Something that doesn't really happen in-game ;)

 

 

 

Problem is with the labels themselves. Long text describing each unit type in red or blue font when in a cluster looks really messy, you can't identify the target because there is so much text everywhere. Should be just a glowing red dot without any description.

 

 

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[imacken]

Problem is with the labels themselves. Long text describing each unit type in red or blue font when in a cluster looks really messy, you can't identify the target because there is so much text everywhere. Should be just a glowing red dot without any description.

 

Use the labels mod to solve that problem.

[Dav IRL]

Use the labels mod to solve that problem.

 

 

 

I prefer not to mod my installation and would ask ED to implement a "simple labels" option.

 

 

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[imacken]

I prefer not to mod my installation and would ask ED to implement a "simple labels" option.

All the mod does is put in a labels.lua file into your 'Saved Games>DCS >Config >View' folder.

No biggy, and you can edit it or remove as you like.

[Dav IRL]

Model Visibility Discussion

 

All the mod does is put in a labels.lua file into your 'Saved Games>DCS >Config >View' folder.

 

No biggy, and you can edit it or remove as you like.

 

 

 

Have you a link for the mod with just red or blue dots, that would be cool.

 

 

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[captain_dalan]

 

The sim just needs a really good transition to transparency that relates visible aircraft size and paint, as well as ensuring relatively uniform results across a bunch of display resolutions.

 

 

This i think is the key.....

[imacken]

Have you a link for the mod with just red or blue dots, that would be cool.

 

It's here, you just have to customise the colours in the last couple of lines for Allies and Enemy colour.

[David OC]

We don't want the Visibility to go the other way and become way too easy and turn this into more of a game, that's what the labels are for, it's meant to be hard and it's harder when flying with all the distractions, like flying the plane, bouncing around in turbulence, navigation etc, then it is standing on the ground looking for aircraft.

 

It's also a big part of strategy is getting the jump on your opponent(s), especially in ww2. Such as, who had more of an idea where the enemy might be and at what altitude etc?

 

(Real close!)

 

Just some real world examples of aircraft getting extremely close, in some of these videos they roughly new where the other aircraft was and still couldn't spot it.

[SeaW0lf]

it's meant to be hard and it's harder when flying with all the distractions, like flying the plane, bouncing around in turbulence, navigation etc, then it is standing on the ground looking for aircraft.

 

But we are not on the ground, we are flying ingame - or at least I bought my modules to fly them. IMHO what should be done is visibility like it really is / or the most real it can be in our monitors.

 

Inexperience and combat awareness / perception is not supposed to be replicated in visibility. This is up to us players and it will vary among ourselves.

 

And turbulence is up to the weather features. It is also not up to visibility rendering.

 

Distraction is also up to us -- and we have to deal with kids, phone calls, people calling you in the middle of a dogfight, the joystick that slides on the table and ends up on your lap and so on so forth.

 

The simulator is not supposed to simulate these things. This is called human factor and they can work on these things on the AIs, not us.

 

The day a simulator tries to replicate and apply inexperience in the way they render visibility is the day we are doomed. How's that supposed to work? Unlocks? The more experienced you are and the better score you have, the better visibility you get in your monitor? It makes no sense.

 

So in short, what distraction and inexperience have to do with visibility rendering? Forgive me if I misunderstand what you said, but it sounds like it.

Edited May 14, 2017 by SeaW0lf

[AMEDooley]

I understand it's different on the ground than in the air, but this is obviously an issue that needs to be addressed. I liked the model enlargement idea that they had. Giving the player an option to make the models bigger with out labels. I can suspend a belief that the models are bigger than they should be better than red and blue labels for the sake of immersion. I don't want it to be easy, I and others just don't want it to be frustrating. It is after all a game.

[David OC]

But we are not on the ground, we are flying ingame - or at least I bought my modules to fly them. IMHO what should be done is visibility like it really is / or the most real it can be in our monitors.

 

Inexperience and combat awareness / perception is not supposed to be replicated in visibility. This is up to us players and it will vary among ourselves.

 

And turbulence is up to the weather features. It is also not up to visibility rendering.

 

The day a simulator tries to replicate and apply inexperience in the way they render visibility is the day we are doomed. How's that supposed to work? Unlocks? The more experienced you are and the better score you have, the better visibility you get in your monitor? It makes no sense.

 

So in short, what distraction and inexperience have to do with visibility rendering? Forgive me if I misunderstand what you said, but it sounds like it.

 

All I was trying to saying here is there needs to be balance and not go to far the other way and make it way too easy.

 

I was definitely not saying anything about "apply inexperience" there has been many close calls in aircraft, even by very very experience pilots. The point is these pilots in the video, even the "experienced pilots" had trouble acquiring the aircraft that they new was there from the radio calls and these aircraft were very close.

 

The turbulence is a small issue here and should be kept separate. I would like a little more bounce and chop here and there in the sim yes, it's a little too nice "

" and would definitely affect your spotting of aircraft.

 

I understand it's different on the ground than in the air, but this is obviously an issue that needs to be addressed. I liked the model enlargement idea that they had. Giving the player an option to make the models bigger with out labels. I can suspend a belief that the models are bigger than they should be better than red and blue labels for the sake of immersion. I don't want it to be easy, I and others just don't want it to be frustrating. It is after all a game.

 

Agreed AMEDooley,

 

This was not directed at you by the way and I too liked the model enlargement. It's a hard thing to get right I guess, the balance needs to be correct, for offline simming you can do what ever, it's your preference big, little, some labels for VR etc.

 

The real balance and focus here is multiplayer, especially for the real competitive guy's (all of us lol) that think they should be able to see the aircraft perspective at a distance and at a certain time of day and conditions, so they then can hopefully make the right decisions etc. I don't think ED will take into consideration the atmospheric conditions, time of day etc on the viewing system? Maybe one day, the new lighting does seem to play apart tho. The system also has to take into account our monitors. I run native 2560 x 1440, 144hz, 1ms response. Expensive monitor and I would rather not want to use this monitor at 1920 x 1080p so I have the same viewing advantage as my opponent.

 

I guess that is why ED has held off on the spotting system until the new lighting is more locked in place and somewhat where it should be, it's a very hard thing to get right, I do have great faith in ED to get this balanced right for multiplayer and multiple monitors.

[SeaW0lf]

it's meant to be hard and it's harder when flying with all the distractions.

 

Well you definitely said something about "make it hard for us" and that distraction was part of the equation and that players bouncing others need that advantage (of us seeing bananas out there) to defend the argument. And you are still talking about close calls, so the general idea to me (it is my opinion, I might be wrong) is that you are pushing for bad visibility more than saying that it can't be overdone -- especially because the new vids about the Normandy map seems to be showing a good / balanced improvement.

 

It is your opinion, but I don't think it is either fair or realistic. We are not asking for labels, we are asking to see the planes we are fighting. I think the best route is to render visibility as it is and leave distraction and inexperience and weather features to what they are.

 

On the argument that bouncing players need the bounced pilots to have limited visibility, I can say that I played for years a game that I consider to have one of the best visibility out there, and one of the main dynamics in full real servers was between turnfighters and BZ planes, and we never had problems to bounce anyone or to be bounced (in fact the latter is a problem :pilotfly:). It worked pretty nice and it is exciting when you do everything right, including taking advantage of the Sun.

[David OC]

Well you definitely said something about "make it hard for us" and that distraction was part of the equation and that players bouncing others need that advantage (of us seeing bananas out there) to defend the argument.

 

No SeaW0lf, I was pointing out that in real life it can be very hard, that’s all.

 

The real life close calls I posted are just good examples of “actual real pilots” from beginner to expert that did not see the other aircraft that were very close. I was posting a different real world perspective with some IRL videos to go with it to show good examples of how hard it can be IRL, that’s all it was SeaW0lf.

 

I just don’t want to see the viewing system go too far the other way for multiplayer that’s all.

 

Like I said, this must be quite hard to get the balance right with all the different screen resolutions available, I know the other sims out there, they still have their own problems, especially with higher screen resolutions.

 

So I’m not pushing for “bad visibility” I too, just like you want the system as close as it can be to real life for multiplayer and a good balance for all screen resolutions.

 

To sum it up I posted the “real” pilots to show you and others just how hard it can be IRL while flying, that’s all SeaW0lf. I think you might be reading into what I posted a little too much.

 

No argument here SeaW0lf, just throwing in my 2 cents...

[chihirobelmo]

I'm fine with things being more visible inside 5nm - they should be. I intensely dislike the 'dot wars' of easily spottable camouflaged aircraft 20nm away.

 

+1 !