Mustang seems now too easy to me !

[Ewertsp]

I tried what Sith asked CHDT to do and I just noticed a small difference, like I only had to adjust more frequently than agressively. It might not be a good comparison but when I do the same on the 109, fullstop and WOT, there's like 80% chance of crashing if I don't apply full right rudder from start.

I'm not saying it should be the same in both aircrafts but it feels like the magnitude of the forces in the 51 are somewhat reduced. My opinion is based on take off's only.

[NineLine]

Well for sure, take off assistance is working as it should, and it does shut off as it should. As for take off being easier, well I can only speak for myself, but after spending a lot of time on the 109 and the 190, I am not surprised at all that the P-51 feels 'easier' to take off with.

 

I dont see a real issue, you still need to pay attention when taking off, it wants to head left into the grass, no its not a fight, but it never was to me. I think anyone coming back from the 190 and/or 109 is probably going to feel the same, that something changed and now its too easy :)

[jcbak]

You might be right. All I know is that I don't need to apply right rudder in 2.0. In 1.5.....I need it big time. I don't fly any other WWII aircraft.

[msalama]

In 1.5.....I need it big time.

 

This. Can't comment on v2.0 however, since I don't have it yet. But as I said already, I'm seeing _no_ changes whatsoever going from v1.2.16 to v1.5.2.

[msalama]

Hmmm... just wondering how v2.0 handles controller inputs compared to v1.5. Can you see any differences between the two?

[Yo-Yo]

Well for sure, take off assistance is working as it should, and it does shut off as it should. As for take off being easier, well I can only speak for myself, but after spending a lot of time on the 109 and the 190, I am not surprised at all that the P-51 feels 'easier' to take off with.

 

I dont see a real issue, you still need to pay attention when taking off, it wants to head left into the grass, no its not a fight, but it never was to me. I think anyone coming back from the 190 and/or 109 is probably going to feel the same, that something changed and now its too easy :)

 

The Mustang never was hard to me at TO because I knew what to do for every moment of the TO run, so I mostly anticipate its moving.

I wrote some times before that I conducted some tests using my daughter (and my wife as well) as white mice to show that even a female pilot with NO experience in sims can easily TO our Mustang.

I performed these inhuman tests after a lot of whining on the forum that the TO is impossible.

 

They both refused to be catched in video... but you can believe me - they both managed to do it, my daughter - for a cost of 4 or 5 broken planes, and my wife - 8 or 10. I stood near and only told what to do/not to do.

 

 

I guess, you are completely right that 190 (having no steering tailwheel and requiring more precise rudder controls) and 109 that has narrow track and requires additional brake input tought to TO in any conditions... some of us could perform even tailwheel-free TO run.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Yo-Yo

[NineLine]

I do have a better flight stick now than when I first flew the P-51 as well, its probably all factored in. I forgot how long the Mustang has been out :)

 

I did something similar with my other half with the A-10, she wasnt impressed with the video :)

 

Vg1d2qpJ-oE

[NineLine]

Not sure if that is waht you are getting at

 

I think he means a better computer (input devices, etc) reduces issues like input lag and other issues, you get better control, and you dont end up fighting things that arent even part of the sim.

[Holbeach]

If you use the RL T/O trim settings in the P-51, you can travel the runway and leave the ground completely hands free.

Rudder 6 deg right, elevator 1 notch aft. Flaps up, stick neutral, no wind, power as required. Don't touch anything.

 

Sithspawn.

 

Put Ang in the Mustang and apply these settings, make her look good.

 

..

[NineLine]

If you use the RL T/O trim settings in the P-51, you can travel the runway and leave the ground completely hands free.

Rudder 6 deg right, elevator 1 notch aft. Flaps up, stick neutral, no wind, power as required. Don't touch anything.

 

Sithspawn.

 

Put Ang in the Mustang and apply these settings, make her look good.

 

..

 

But do you feel that is wrong? I mean I have watched a number of cockpit vids of P-51D take offs, none of them seem like the pilot is wrestling her into the air, quite the opposite... seems to just float on up.

 

Yo-Yo should be able to confirm this as well, he has rode in the back seat of a P-51 :)

[Echo38]

All I know is that I don't need to apply right rudder in 2.0. In 1.5.....I need it big time.

 

Do you have both versions installed? If so, sounds like you have enough to make a side-by-side video. Make sure the same mission is being used, same difficulty options, trim settings, etc. Do a hands-off takeoff both ways, and we can see any difference.

 

But before you do that, there's a couple of things I don't think anyone's suggested yet. Firstly: have you loaded up your mission and saved it again in each different version? That is, if you're going to play Takeoff.mis in 1.5, you load it in the 1.5 mission editor, save it, and then play it. If you're going to play Takeoff.mis in 2.0, you load it in the 2.0 mission editor, save it, and then play it.

 

Secondly (if that doesn't work), have you tried moving your C:\Users\[you]\Saved Games\DCS directory? Don't delete it (it has all your missions and replays and such), but just move it to e.g. your Desktop. This will cause a new directory with default settings to be generated next time you open DCS.

 

Then, open the sim, set your difficulty options, and bind whatever controls you need to take off. You don't need to rebind everything, just the basics (pitch, roll, yaw, throttle, brakes; you can use the mouse for everything else). Close the sim, copy the mission you want to fly into the newly-generated directory, and restart the sim. Try taking off; does the problem remain?

 

If the problem remains, then I'd undo the change (move the new C:\Users\[you]\Saved Games\DCS to Recycle Bin, then move the old one from Desktop back into C:\Users\[you]\Saved Games) and make the side-by-side video described in the first paragraph of this post.

 

If, on the other hand, the problem is solved, then you'll need to rebind all your functions and hand-move all of your other setting files (ones which won't over-write your binds) back into the appropriate directory.

[CHDT]

Same experience like Ewertsp, the start needed some more rudder (but not that much), but still it looked to me too much easy (when compared to the situation prior the patch), with only minimal torque.

 

It's no more needed to keep the tail low until some speed has been gained and before the patch, it was obligatory. The idea that I've become so good seems unrealistic to me ;-)

 

 

PS: I've not the 109 or the 190, so I can't compare.

[Art-J]

Do you have both versions installed? If so, sounds like you have enough to make a side-by-side video. Make sure the same mission is being used, same difficulty options, trim settings, etc. Do a hands-off takeoff both ways, and we can see any difference.

 

If we want to be so anal about controls efficiency modelling, we have to calculate correct temperatures which need to be used in 2.0, so that the density altitude is the same as in 1.5.2 :D. After all, airbases in Nevada are located much higher above MSL than Georgian ones.

 

Not going to do it myself, though, because I've just fired up 2.0 and done a no-trim, hands-free takeoff attempt (hands free, because I didn't even plug my HOTAS in :) ). Well, the Mustang immediately veered off to the left and crashed just like in 1.5.2.

 

They still feel the same in both versions to me.

[NineLine]

Same experience like Ewertsp, the start needed some more rudder (but not that much), but still it looked to me too much easy (when compared to the situation prior the patch), with only minimal torque.

 

It's no more needed to keep the tail low until some speed has been gained and before the patch, it was obligatory. The idea that I've become so good seems unrealistic to me ;-)

 

 

PS: I've not the 109 or the 190, so I can't compare.

 

Yeah, I just dont see an issue at this point. Is it easier to take off in than the first time I tried it? Yes... but so is everything else I own. I dont see a difference in anything recently.

[Holbeach]

But do you feel that is wrong? I mean I have watched a number of cockpit vids of P-51D take offs, none of them seem like the pilot is wrestling her into the air, quite the opposite... seems to just float on up.

 

Yo-Yo should be able to confirm this as well, he has rode in the back seat of a P-51 :)

 

The short answer has to be yes.

 

If Yo-Yo's pilot had put his hands behind his head and his feet up on the dash during take off, he would probably have shit himself just before he died.

His pilot will actually be putting continuous small control inputs as the speed increases and aerodynamics change. Correct trim only relieves workload.

The overwhelming force at the start of the run is propwash. and I can't feel that.

Having said that, this is exactly the same as 1.2. so nothing has changed in that respect.

 

The landing on the other hand is a joy and needs to be worked at, as you would expect.

 

..

[NineLine]

The short answer has to be yes.

 

If Yo-Yo's pilot had put his hands behind his head and his feet up on the dash during take off, he would probably have shit himself just before he died.

 

I am positive no pilot would ever attempt that in real life, but be sure that the pilot prepares his aircraft for the best possible take of trim, for the least amount of input on take off.

 

You cant trim your aircraft and then take your hands off the controls and then say you are doing a hands free take off, because your hands were already on the aircraft, not to mention out flight sticks are not connected to the aircraft like the real thing is... its all got to be taken into account.

[CHDT]

"Is it easier to take off in than the first time I tried it? but so is everything else I own."

 

Not exactly.

It's easier to take off now than two months ago when I had difficulties to start without breaking an aircraft each three attempts.

And I've never get good at anything without practising.

Edited January 14, 2016 by CHDT

[NineLine]

"Is it easier to take off in than the first time I tried it? but so is everything else I own."

 

Not exactly.

It's easier to take off now than two months ago when I had difficulties to start without breaking an aircraft each three attempts.

And I've never get good at everything without practising.

 

As a sort of side note its funny to see the other side of this coin, when the 190 came out, and everyone said it was unrealistic because it was too hard to take off in. Now the P-51D is not realistic because its not hard to take off in. Planes were design to fly, if they arent very good at that then they probably wont be very popular :)

[FSKRipper]

As a sort of side note its funny to see the other side of this coin, when the 190 came out, and everyone said it was unrealistic because it was too hard to take off in. Now the P-51D is not realistic because its not hard to take off in. Planes were design to fly, if they arent very good at that then they probably wont be very popular :)

 

+1

 

I learned it the hard way and see no difference between 1.2.16 and 1.5.2. If you find it to easy you should think of buying the FW-190. We can talk after that :music_whistling:

[Skithis]

They absolutely changed something. The aircraft is totally different on takeoff. I can pull the stick back and hammer the throttle wide open now, no rudder needed on takeoff roll.

 

I thought i remembered a while back seeing something that said they were going to tighten the tail wheel lock up a little bit?

[Echo38]

You know, if people are going to completely breeze over my troubleshooting suggestions, without even acknowledging (much less trying) them, I'm going to have little choice but to assume that some people are complaining for the sake of complaining.

 

The two most likely causes of the perceived effect are A) user error or B) config file corruption between versions. I gave some detailed, straight-forward instructions on how to definitively check whether or not B is the problem, but those who claim that there's an FM change are acting as though I hadn't even mentioned it, which causes me to question the legitimacy of their complaint.

 

there's a couple of things I don't think anyone's suggested yet. Firstly: have you loaded up your mission and saved it again in each different version? That is, if you're going to play Takeoff.mis in 1.5, you load it in the 1.5 mission editor, save it, and then play it. If you're going to play Takeoff.mis in 2.0, you load it in the 2.0 mission editor, save it, and then play it.

 

Secondly (if that doesn't work), have you tried moving your C:\Users\[you]\Saved Games\DCS directory? Don't delete it (it has all your missions and replays and such), but just move it to e.g. your Desktop. This will cause a new directory with default settings to be generated next time you open DCS.

 

Then, open the sim, set your difficulty options, and bind whatever controls you need to take off. You don't need to rebind everything, just the basics (pitch, roll, yaw, throttle, brakes; you can use the mouse for everything else). Close the sim, copy the mission you want to fly into the newly-generated directory, and restart the sim. Try taking off; does the problem remain?

Edited January 15, 2016 by Echo38

[Stonehouse]

For whatever it is worth, I have no take off assistance set on ie 0% and I just ran three tests. As a reference note I am using a Warthog set and Saitek combat pedals.

 

I put a P51 on the runway at Batumi ready to take off. Test one was stick left neutral, no trim, no rudder input, no flaps and the only control used was advancing the throttle to max as quickly as my respect for the cost of the Warthog permits. The result was a rapid left hand departure off the runway onto the grass and flipping tail over nose to end up a broken burning wreck. Second test run was same but using maybe 20-30 deg back stick. The departure was a bit slower but still quite quick and ended the same way.

The third test was the same except that this time I held the stick fully back so the tail wheel had the minimum amount of swivel. This time I got about half way down the runway before ending up on the grass and had partially lifted off. If I had quickly relaxed the back pressure I might have achieved a very sloppy take off from the grass probably right on the edge of losing control and stalling but I held the back stick. End result was wing stall a few metres off the deck and upside down as a burning wreck. Each test the only controls used were either the throttle alone or throttle and pitch axis of the joystick.

 

Conclusion is that nothing material has changed that I can see - which is a shame in some ways as a guy I fly regularly with has stopped flying the P51 because he feels it is too hard to get off the ground but won't "stoop" to using take off assistance so I was kind of half hoping in a sort of back to front way that something had changed just because it's hard to fly the P51 (which I like to do) as a whole squadron as he refuses to join in once he hears the plane is in the mission. Needless to say he won't even try the 109 or 190. I know this doesn't prove anything other than I see something different to the people saying there is no torque effect etc but trying to be logical and take the simplest solution approach it sounds like the difference is most likely in the individual's installation of DCS or how they have it configured and not the FM as if it was in the flight model I would have do something different to make the above behaviour take place or else I would see the same lack of torque etc.

[fixen]

Well we could find out the problem If people record their takeoff with axis view enabled and post a track and maybe their entire config folder.

[golani79]

[...] If you find it to easy you should think of buying the FW-190. We can talk after that :music_whistling:

 

Better the 109 :D

 

Haven´t flown the Mustang in ages - gonna try to TO now in 1.5 and 2.0 and see what happens :pilotfly:

[Holbeach]

For whatever it is worth, I have no take off assistance set on ie 0% and I just ran three tests. As a reference note I am using a Warthog set and Saitek combat pedals.

 

 

Conclusion is that nothing material has changed that I can see - which is a shame in some ways as a guy I fly regularly with has stopped flying the P51 because he feels it is too hard to get off the ground but won't "stoop" to using take off assistance so I was kind of half hoping in a sort of back to front way that something had changed just because it's hard to fly the P51 etc.

 

Get your friend to apply T/O trim, rudder 6 deg right, elevator 1 notch aft (2 deg), no flap and he will sail off the runway with no trouble.

 

..

Edited January 15, 2016 by Holbeach