GUIDE: The advanced barrel roll or how to outmaneuver 27ERs

[SinusoidDelta]

The launching jet was going Mach 1.4, the target jet is going .8 Mach, and the launch was from 2.4 miles cold. Delta V, or lack there of, is one of the problems. Even when the missile tracks it can't hit its target.

 

Which is more surprising? An ER missing a 4.1 nm rear aspect shot with both aircraft traveling the same speed, or a sparrow missing a rear aspect shot at 2.4 miles with a huge kinematic advantage?

Edited March 13, 2016 by SinusoidDelta

[Tucano_uy]

It would be better to load rocket pods, at least you have more shots available. Or asking *nicely* the defending bandit to eject would also work better.

[pyromaniac4002]

Nothing hits from 6 nm in a tail chase against a fighter. Obviously it should if we're talking about an ER or any of the medium range stuff, but ED has consistently vetoed that argument. At first I thought this thread was talking about a head-on engagement, and if that were the case and it wasn't something we already know then you would've had some useful information, but this is nothing.

[FLANKERATOR]

The radar is in pain in a tail chase, not sure if Croncat was using MED PRF there, that would have helped to some extent.

 

@SinusoidDelta: your track is hardly comparable to Croncat's; That sparrow was tracking but the target was defending aggressively (chaff+ high G rolling scissors) and the missile got spoofed legitimately IMO.

[Svend_Dellepude]

PRF tuning only matter in search mode. As soon as you enter STT you have no control over PRF anymore.

[FLANKERATOR]

It does matter. I've tested it myself many times. I was putting the target in STT head on from HI before firing. As soon as the target starts turning away I switched to ILV then moved to MED once the angle off reached 90deg. I noticed it helped the missile to stay on track. The only trick is that PRF is not displayed while in STT so you must keep track of what mode is on and remember the right order when going through them.

 

Being in STT does not mean the radar is actually tracking the target but when you see the trail of the missile steering back toward the target you know it is.

 

All the aforementioned is from a Flaming Cliffs perspective only and whether this is accurate or not for real stuff is a different discussion.

Edited March 13, 2016 by FLANKERATOR

[*Rage*]

^^ Yep :)

[Frostie]

PRF tuning only matter in search mode. As soon as you enter STT you have no control over PRF anymore.

 

Yes it does work even though this is unrealistic and unnecessary modelling, switching PRFs during a lock can keep an aspect changing target locked up/tracked that would otherwise be lost in High PRF.

[Croncat]

The radar is in pain in a tail chase, not sure if Croncat was using MED PRF there, that would have helped to some extent.

 

I can't answer you that, because I was the guy beeing chased. I just thought it's funny.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Croncat

[karambiatos]

It does matter. I've tested it myself many times. I was putting the target in STT head on from HI before firing. As soon as the target starts turning away I switched to ILV then moved to MED once the angle off reached 90deg. I noticed it helped the missile to stay on track. The only trick is that PRF is not displayed while in STT so you must keep track of what mode is on and remember the right order when going through them.

 

The radar should do that automatically shouldn't it, i mean it already knows the aspect of the aircraft?

[Svend_Dellepude]

I might be wrong, but i seem to remember having read somewhere on the forums that as soon as you went into STT, tracking was no longer affected by the PRF setting but a number of other factors.

I have been playing around with PRF during SARH guidance a lot too, but IMHO it seemed more or less random if it would track in a given situation in a some PRF or not.

But again, I might be wrong.

[will-]

some have said "only use flood in emergency situations". But after may attempts of rear aspect aim-7's not tracking/getting the job done. Flood mode for me works nearly 90% of the time...

[Sweep]

Not tracking = Emergency situation.

 

Right? :)

 

Gotta test that now...

[FLANKERATOR]

The radar should do that automatically shouldn't it, i mean it already knows the aspect of the aircraft?

 

No idea if this is an intentional modelling or not or if its realistic or not, the only thing I know is that it does work in game and it will increase the tracking capability of a SARH. Many times the missile lost track mid flight but as soon as I change PRF it reacquires the target and steers back towards it. The hard part was that t I had to remember in which PRF mode I was as its not displayed in STT.

 

I'd guess the radar should be capable of doing this automatically in STT at least for modern radars...Maybe this is not the case for the now very aging Flanker B's radar.

[red_coreSix]

From what I know even the MiG-21s radar has auto PRF adjustment in STT

[karambiatos]

No idea if this is an intentional modelling or not or if its realistic or not, the only thing I know is that it does work in game and it will increase the tracking capability of a SARH. Many times the missile lost track mid flight but as soon as I change PRF it reacquires the target and steers back towards it. The hard part was that t I had to remember in which PRF mode I was as its not displayed in STT.

 

I'd guess the radar should be capable of doing this automatically in STT at least for modern radars...Maybe this is not the case for the now very aging Flanker B's radar.

 

Well it already knows what way the target is facing, i don't see why it shouldn't be able to, not to mention that the hud doesn't display the PRF setting anyway, so it would stand to reason that it does it automatically.

[*Rage*]

In real life - probably yes.

[Nerd1000]

From what I know even the MiG-21s radar has auto PRF adjustment in STT

The MiG 21 can change PRF? I didn't think it was that sophisticated...

[Jester Darrak]

Trying to be Vulcan here:

 

FLOOD:

 

Narrow beam with contineous wave radar energy. Everything in the cone reflects some energy with highest RCS return being chased by the Sparrow.

 

STT:

 

Concentrated beam, even more narrow than in FLOOD, aided by gymbals, gyros and other fancy INS voodoo stuff. But, and here comes the kicker, since the radar has to cover only a small area it should be able to shift PRF within split seconds unnoticed by the operator.

 

Wild guess: since the range is very close in a rear aspect shot, let's say 6NM, the radar should only be using a fracture of it's emmissions to actually track (here: not losing the target, constant update on BRAA) and the majority to just paint the target (here: contineous, highly concentrated waves). That makes STT some kind of "smart FLOOD".

 

The problem with tracking should only be an issue with the missile itself as it is just homing in on the returning waves. In FLOOD it takes the greatest RCS, same in STT just with the difference that there can only be one return in STT but multiple in FLOOD.

 

F-15C's tracking computers (anyone say EVE online?) should be very well capable of keeping track of the target at ranges within 10NM because of the small distance the waves have to travel, even with the target maneuvering.

 

Then again I am completely surprised with the radar in MEM mode being able to re-aquire a target that went behind a hill for about 2 or 3 seconds. And with extreme lead AFM missiles are tracking the shot reconnects without a problem thus killing the target.

[Svend_Dellepude]

FLOOD is not a continous wave but a hprf. The Sparrow does not guide with a CW.

And again; as soon as you enter STT, prf is disregarded. A lock is a lock and prf is AFAIK not considered, nor handled by the game.

 

Try bugging a bandit head on at 40 NM in tws and then switch to mprf.

Track should now be lost.

Do the same in STT at 40 NM and see if the radar goes in MEM mode.

It doesn't. It will keep tracking.

[Frostie]

And again; as soon as you enter STT, prf is disregarded. A lock is a lock and prf is AFAIK not considered, nor handled by the game..

 

Yes but this is with the F-15 only. Other aircraft handle PRF differently.

[GGTharos]

I think it's handled - I'll have to re-test, but for example maximum STT range on a tail aspect target will be different depending on PRF - same with head-on target. For the most part this behavior should be common to all/most player radars in DCS right now.