Perfect hover after 7 years

[Johnny Dioxin]

I have all of the autopilot modes bound to my HOTAS, but rarely use them as such - the three that are engaged as part of start-up I usually leave on.

 

Having said that, when I was using the FFB G940, I sometimes used to find the helicopter bucking and weaving all over the place despite not having made any input changes, and in those situations I switched everything off and got it back under control manually (something the FFB was brilliant for) - but I can't think of a single time that I consciously engaged or disengaged the FD for a specific purpose.

 

I used to fly the Ka-50 as my favourite module for about 3 years or so (the Rookie meet-ups we used to have here - organised by Eddie iirc - were good fun), but I am disabled and it affects my legs, so for long periods I can't use my pedals and for this reason I've hardly flown it since the Deployment campaign flown for my website AARs (that was over 2 years ago).

 

So I am somewhat out of practice!

 

Oh, and despite having them bound to my HOTAS, that's for 'just in case'. I rarely use anything but Route Mode and altitude hold. Unless you consider ToT to be an AP mode :)

Edited March 24, 2016 by Brixmis

[Rogue Trooper]

congrats brixmis, once this is achieved she just becomes a supremely maneuverable beast... a true street fighter.

[zaelu]

I think correct is "maintain hover" and not "auto hover" as you need to reduce speed to maximum 5km/h IAS basically achieve hover manually (including vertical movements so ALT channel engaged and collective brake helps).

 

Using default Logitech interface to tweak FFB I can get it to hover rock solid but not fast enough (and G940 wobbling at center does have its fault here). However with SimFFB the FFB trim is not working at all or is inverted on Y axis no matter how much I try to toggle invert in DCS FFB settings.

[Fri13]

I think correct is "maintain hover" and not "auto hover" as you need to reduce speed to maximum 5km/h IAS basically achieve hover manually (including vertical movements so ALT channel engaged and collective brake helps).

 

The automatic hover is not same as "maintain altitude".

 

When automatic hover is engaged, GLONASS data is used to mark the hover position where the autopilot channels are used to keep the helicopter. And everytime when automatic hover is enabled and aircraft is trimmed, the trimmed position becomes the new position. This allows to keep automatic hover enabled, keep trim pressed and maneuver for wanted position and release trim to mark the new position, attitude and altitude.

[Yurgon]

This allows to keep automatic hover enabled, keep trim pressed and maneuver for wanted position and release trim to mark the new position, attitude and altitude.

 

That should work, yes, but I don't think it's the preferred way to do it. I've read over and over again that eastern/Russian doctrine is to push the trim button very often, like in this video by AlexandrT.

 

 

I'm pretty sure any Russian pilot would rather switch off auto hover, move to the new position the traditional way, trim to a near hover, and then re-engage auto hover instead of just holding the trim pressed all the time while relocating.

 

Doesn't mean we all have to do it that way, just that there's "preferred" and "works for me". :D

[Fri13]

That should work, yes, but I don't think it's the preferred way to do it. I've read over and over again that eastern/Russian doctrine is to push the trim button very often, like in this video by AlexandrT.

 

 

I'm pretty sure any Russian pilot would rather switch off auto hover, move to the new position the traditional way, trim to a near hover, and then re-engage auto hover instead of just holding the trim pressed all the time while relocating.

 

Doesn't mean we all have to do it that way, just that there's "preferred" and "works for me". :D

There were two preferred methods, either trim all the time or keep trim down. Either way was correct and valid.

What wasn't valid was to use FD mode so often.

 

But I am not talking about moving 500m or more. More like a 20-30m or even 100m distances. Like hovering behind building and then moving to other side of it to prepare for pop-up from other direction.

 

And keeping trim down you avoid easy mistakes as immediately you release trim chopper will auto hover to that position. Very much safer in tight places than turning hover on/off.

[Yurgon]

There were two preferred methods, either trim all the time or keep trim down. Either way was correct and valid.

What wasn't valid was to use FD mode so often.

 

Once again, for all I know, the Eastern or Russian doctrine is to trim often and not hold it pressed. From that perspective, that's the "preferred" way to fly the Ka-50.

 

Keeping trim pressed, as far as I can tell, is more like the Western doctrine.

 

We can argue semantics on what's "preferred" under which point of view all day, but I agree and already wrote in my previous post that there's also "works for me".

 

Just curious, when you write "There were [...] methods" and "Either way was correct and valid.", whom or what are you referring to?

 

But I am not talking about moving 500m or more. More like a 20-30m or even 100m distances. Like hovering behind building and then moving to other side of it to prepare for pop-up from other direction.

 

Yup, that's also the kind of relocation I had in mind. Like I said, I'm fairly certain a Russian pilot would rather disengage Auto Hover, move to the new spot, and then re-engage it, instead of keeping the trim button pressed all the way, because that's the way they're trained to do it.

 

I must admit, though, that my frame of reference for making this assumption is reading many, many posts on this forum, but I didn't read any RL guides or talk to actual Russian pilots about it, so I might be wrong regarding the Auto Hover relocation thing. I'm just wondering: Are you talking about what's a valid way to do it in DCS, or are you talking about RL procedures used by actual Russian (or Soviet, back in the day) pilots?

 

And keeping trim down you avoid easy mistakes as immediately you release trim chopper will auto hover to that position. Very much safer in tight places than turning hover on/off.

 

I don't see your point. On the contrary: If you put the chopper out of hover (more than, say, 10 kph in any given direction) with Auto Hover on and then let got of the trim button, the auto pilot will be forced to counter that movement. And since we've already established that Auto Hover is not "Establish Hover" but rather "Hover Hold", there's all kinds of things might happen when that situation occurs.

 

I, for one, would rather have the chopper in a controlled state at all times instead of keeping it on the edge of some very strong AP inputs by keeping trim pressed with Auto Hover engaged at the same time. Which probably brings us right back to "Works for me": If that's the way you do it, hey, fine. With the downsides mentioned above, I strongly doubt this is the "preferred" way to do it, though, but I'll gladly stand corrected if someone who actually knows this or provides RL reference chimes in on the discussion.

[Fri13]

Once again, for all I know, the Eastern or Russian doctrine is to trim often and not hold it pressed. From that perspective, that's the "preferred" way to fly the Ka-50.

 

Keeping trim pressed, as far as I can tell, is more like the Western doctrine.

 

We can argue semantics on what's "preferred" under which point of view all day, but I agree and already wrote in my previous post that there's also "works for me".

 

Just curious, when you write "There were [...] methods" and "Either way was correct and valid.", whom or what are you referring to?

 

 

 

Yup, that's also the kind of relocation I had in mind. Like I said, I'm fairly certain a Russian pilot would rather disengage Auto Hover, move to the new spot, and then re-engage it, instead of keeping the trim button pressed all the way, because that's the way they're trained to do it.

 

I must admit, though, that my frame of reference for making this assumption is reading many, many posts on this forum, but I didn't read any RL guides or talk to actual Russian pilots about it, so I might be wrong regarding the Auto Hover relocation thing. I'm just wondering: Are you talking about what's a valid way to do it in DCS, or are you talking about RL procedures used by actual Russian (or Soviet, back in the day) pilots?

 

 

 

I don't see your point. On the contrary: If you put the chopper out of hover (more than, say, 10 kph in any given direction) with Auto Hover on and then let got of the trim button, the auto pilot will be forced to counter that movement. And since we've already established that Auto Hover is not "Establish Hover" but rather "Hover Hold", there's all kinds of things might happen when that situation occurs.

 

I, for one, would rather have the chopper in a controlled state at all times instead of keeping it on the edge of some very strong AP inputs by keeping trim pressed with Auto Hover engaged at the same time. Which probably brings us right back to "Works for me": If that's the way you do it, hey, fine. With the downsides mentioned above, I strongly doubt this is the "preferred" way to do it, though, but I'll gladly stand corrected if someone who actually knows this or provides RL reference chimes in on the discussion.

The system is autohover, not "hover hold".

 

The autohover does keep you in hover, but it as well will keep you in the position where you commanded KA-50 to stay.

 

And auto hover will return you to your programmed position even from a long distance if the AP channels has authority.

 

With just trim (AP channels) you can program KA-50 to hover or fly circle or fly straight or given altitude. You dont need a autohover for that hovering at all if you can put helicopter to hover yourself and AP channels keep you in hover if you programmed it correctly. Meaning AP channels is your "maintain hover".

Autohover will not follow your programming attitude to AP channels, it will automatically put you to hover, overriding your commands and environment as much its authority allows, and it will control KA-50 to keep you in position and if you fly away without reprogramming (resave new location) it will fly back to the saved position where autohover was initiated.

 

Example.

 

With just AP channels you can put KA-50 to hover in wanted position and wanted direction in 3m/s wind and maintain perfect hover. But if now there comes stronger wind for a moment ie. 7m/s then it will cause your KA-50 to start turning up to the wind, it will cause AP to try to maintain the attitude. But as it was short wind blow, it returns to 3m/s and the time KA-50 moved will affect it depending time and strength of wind, as KA-50 might return to perfect hover if AP compensates the heading, altitude and roll, but it will never hover again in your initial position of programming. It will just maintain hover, or it can be even slipping continually as long KA-50 has inertia (like a rock on ice) until inertia ends.

 

Auto-hover will do the same thing, but it will as well remember your programming position. And it will not try to keep you in hover, it will try to keep you in place, compensating external forces. It automatically keeps you in hover, instead just in hover position.

Ie. Same 3m/s wind, but when the 7m/s wind comes, Autohover will detect your drift from programmed position and it will compensate for that by tilting against the wind to keep you in place. If the wind is too strong for AP authority and KA-50 drifts away, the moment when wind returns to 3m/s it will get authority and starts maneuvers to return you back to the programmed location. Meaning it does not try to maintain hover anymore, it will manuever back to position where 7m/s wind (or other force like a pilot input withoht reprogramming) started to push it away. It might take some time as it needs as well fight against 3m/s wind as well a its inertia with AP channels authority limits, but it will get back to autohover programmed locating and attitude as long it is in its limits.

 

And there are safety functions for hover when it will disengage or requirements for its programming situation. But you can do things like enable autohover at 25kph (or even 50kph) if autohover has capability in AP channels to return you to place.

Ie. If you fly 50kph nose in 25° angle, forget as it doesn't have any authority then.

If you are stopping in 50kph speed, then autohover can return you to programmed position and put KA-50 to hover as you wanted, even when initial programming attitude was not hover.

 

If it would be just a "maintain hover", then you would need to compensate all the time for it and if there is any external force (wind, pilot etc) that cause KA-50 to move, it would just return to hover attitude it was programmed and not care if it was drifting somewhere as it simply would then be maintaining hover as programmed.

 

And it was years back about trimming with multiple pressing, or hold down and release after maneuever. There were videos from a real KA-50 pilots doing both things, and it was more about a style. If you fly straight and need to do small adjustments, i keep pressing trim as it is simple easy.

If i need to do a maneuver like a turn, i hold trim the time I do maneuver and then release for wanted attitude, and I dont need to fight against AP channels authority at any given time.

If I go to combat zone where I need to do lots of manual flying, I enable FD as then I dont need to hold trim button or press it at all as my moves are dampened all the time, just as I would hold trim button.

 

But I use hold style most in that case too, as i don't need to release hand from a stick to press FD button. And often it is easier to just program KA-50 to sudden combat maneuvers and then keep firing. Ie. After a combat turn over targets (hold) I start funneling (release) and I can use thumb to aiming while KA-50 funnel by itself around my programmed target point, and then I hold trim to maneuver back to cover where I then release and start pressing normally for small adjustments.

 

It is not wrong at all to keep trim down, as it is same as FD from time you press, to moment you release. And it is valid style as you dont need to try to do a maneuver while fighting against AP channels or move hand to enable FD.

 

And with a FF stick it becomes very natural and logical to do the press+hold because you will feel totally differently how you fly KA-50.

With a centered spring stick I prefer multiple clicks even then.

[Yurgon]

The system is autohover, not "hover hold".

 

Okay, semantics. Many newbies think of it as "it will get me into a hover", which, as you yourself explain later on, is only part of what it does and only works under certain circumstances. Plus it doesn't usually work the way newbies expect it to.

 

Telling newbies to think of it as "Hover Hold" will make things a lot clearer for them, and is not even technically wrong despite the omission of some of Auto Hover's features.

 

If i need to do a maneuver like a turn, i hold trim the time I do maneuver and then release for wanted attitude, and I dont need to fight against AP channels authority at any given time.

[...]

And with a FF stick it becomes very natural and logical to do the press+hold because you will feel totally differently how you fly KA-50.

With a centered spring stick I prefer multiple clicks even then.

 

Long story short: Works for you, and that's fine with me.

 

I just don't understand why you keep explaining the intricacies of the Auto Hover, Auto Pilot and Trim systems to me, when all you're really saying is that you know how they work, and you've got your own way of using them. :noexpression:

 

The one thing I'm strongly opposing is when people find a way that works well for them and then propagate to the rest of the world that everyone should do it exactly like they do, because it works so well for them. And it's my impression that that's exactly what you're doing: Telling everyone how well your methods work and that other methods may be valid, but are inferior - with which I disagree.

 

Each to their own.

[AlphaOneSix]

When automatic hover is engaged, GLONASS data is used to mark the hover position where the autopilot channels are used to keep the helicopter.

 

Are you absolutely certain of this? I don't think this is true. Do you have a reference?

 

EDIT: Nevermind, found the reference I was looking for. The aircraft uses the DISS-15 Doppler device for automatic hover. The GLONASS is only for the ABRIS and does not interface with any other aircraft system that I'm aware of.

Edited April 28, 2016 by AlphaOneSix

[BitMaster]

I am half drunk but regardless, does this matter when flyinh the Ka on 104th to Target Area Bravo ?? I honestly dont think so !

 

Many functions with the Ka-50 are useless when flying 104th hardcore. Dial in the target range, fly there, shoot all Vikhrs, RTB and so on...no need to know Abris or any function deeper than Waypoint xyz...THAT IS THE SHAME ABOUT DCS, NO ONE KNOWS HOW TO MAKE DEEP MISSIONS WITHOUT STUDYING THE ME.

 

1 SERVER---ONE...that has good missions...if 104th goes..I go with it...change that devs!!!

 

The ME is the A&O of DCS, long overseen .....

 

 

Need a beer :)

[Fri13]

Okay, semantics. Many newbies think of it as "it will get me into a hover", which, as you yourself explain later on, is only part of what it does and only works under certain circumstances. Plus it doesn't usually work the way newbies expect it to.

 

Telling newbies to think of it as "Hover Hold" will make things a lot clearer for them, and is not even technically wrong despite the omission of some of Auto Hover's features.

 

 

 

Long story short: Works for you, and that's fine with me.

 

I just don't understand why you keep explaining the intricacies of the Auto Hover, Auto Pilot and Trim systems to me, when all you're really saying is that you know how they work, and you've got your own way of using them. :noexpression:

 

The one thing I'm strongly opposing is when people find a way that works well for them and then propagate to the rest of the world that everyone should do it exactly like they do, because it works so well for them. And it's my impression that that's exactly what you're doing: Telling everyone how well your methods work and that other methods may be valid, but are inferior - with which I disagree.

 

Each to their own.

Auto-Hover has never meant what new pilots might think.

 

As their possible idea that you can be at any speed and just hit a button and it would put helicopter to hover and keep it where it managed to do the hover.

 

That wouldn't be anything as hover is meant to be as itself because you just need to know how to put chopper to hover without any AP channels, with a AP channels and then with a auto-hover.

 

As the three ways are different to each other.

 

1) You need to carefully play attention to helicopter controls and use slight smooth controls.

 

2) You need to understand 1) and then AP channels behavior and capabilities and still work more like in 1).

 

3) You need to understand 2) (and so on 1) too) but as well the auto-hover functions and still work little like with 2).

 

Yes today helicopters like SH-60 can have far more improved autopilots without any restriction to controls and you can even enable hover under heavy storm (words from rescue helicopter pilots) at sea and the system can keep chopped just above the person at sea. But even that system requires pilot to program autopilot to mark the hover position and prepare for it doing it manually first.

 

The 1) is fully manual, hands on cyclic and collective and continually balancing with pedals.

The 2) is semi-automatic, allowing pilot to take hands momentarily off from cyclic and collective. But any external force causes pilot to intervene.

The 3) is mostly automatic but with limitations that pilot need to watch out and pilot can operate both hands off from cyclic and collective in limits.

 

And I know that new helicopter pilot's has this fantasy that you just press a button and helicopter hovers perfectly etc. But it is just that, and hover being one of the challenging features to learn and still master. And everyone should know how to fly a helicopter without any autopilot assistance.

And when you do, it is possible that you dont even notice that AP is disabled when you fly.

Like when I removed after first weeks a "reset trim" button and replaced it with "disable autopilot", I was required to learn away bad habit resetting trim now and then. And I didn't often notice that I was flying without any AP channel until I tried to hover.

And after taking damage, I often found myself to fly back to base with disabled AP and half of the chopper missing.

And last week I got stinger at my face, losing pressure from gearboxes and incapable to get up from ground after autorotation.

I noticed that I was fighting against AP and needed to so wrong things to get KA--50 to hover on ground effect, just about 2m from ground. It included disabling AP totally, keeping collective down and increasing RPM to max and then cranking full collective quickly after dropping weapons. And after couple tries managed to get a ground effect and then limp back to FARP 15km distance just at 7kph speed, now and then dropping on ground and get back up only because the speed and hover. All the time without any AP.

If I enabled AP then I lost everything and dropped to ground incapable to do anything.

[Fri13]

I am half drunk but regardless, does this matter when flyinh the Ka on 104th to Target Area Bravo ?? I honestly dont think so !

 

Many functions with the Ka-50 are useless when flying 104th hardcore. Dial in the target range, fly there, shoot all Vikhrs, RTB and so on...no need to know Abris or any function deeper than Waypoint xyz...THAT IS THE SHAME ABOUT DCS, NO ONE KNOWS HOW TO MAKE DEEP MISSIONS WITHOUT STUDYING THE ME.

 

1 SERVER---ONE...that has good missions...if 104th goes..I go with it...change that devs!!!

 

The ME is the A&O of DCS, long overseen .....

 

 

Need a beer :)

Many missions are not requiring a hover, as missions are more designed like fighters in the mind.

 

No positions to hover and wait, no reasons to do very careful scouting (NOE to location, hover, slowly pop-up to peek and mark targets, back down, NOE to other position and repeat. And then use ABRIS to plan attacks, ingress points and so on. The ABRIS is truly a amazing tool as it makes KA-50 so effective in battlefield.

[StrongHarm]

Once I learned to liberate myself from "AP channels always on, no exceptions", I found that I was a much better helo pilot. For instance, instead of retrimming every channel to change heading, I just turn APheading off, yaw over a bit until I get the right track, then turn it back on.. voila. If I'm in a hover and I need to sideslip to get a view around an obstacle, I'll turn off APbank, slip over, then turn it back on.. bam. It's important to view trim in a helo differently than with a fixed wing aircraft. Don't overuse it.

[20thBG_Blackwolf]

Once I learned to liberate myself from "AP channels always on, no exceptions", I found that I was a much better helo pilot. For instance, instead of retrimming every channel to change heading, I just turn APheading off, yaw over a bit until I get the right track, then turn it back on.. voila. If I'm in a hover and I need to sideslip to get a view around an obstacle, I'll turn off APbank, slip over, then turn it back on.. bam. It's important to view trim in a helo differently than with a fixed wing aircraft. Don't overuse it.

Wow, awesome tips! Why didn't I think of that? My Noob is showing! Thanks for the tips SH!

[BitMaster]

Once I learned to liberate myself from "AP channels always on, no exceptions", I found that I was a much better helo pilot. For instance, instead of retrimming every channel to change heading, I just turn APheading off, yaw over a bit until I get the right track, then turn it back on.. voila. If I'm in a hover and I need to sideslip to get a view around an obstacle, I'll turn off APbank, slip over, then turn it back on.. bam. It's important to view trim in a helo differently than with a fixed wing aircraft. Don't overuse it.

 

Over the past updates the Radar Altimeter seems to have improved, or I misused it before, but now it is possible to fly 220km/h 50m above Vegas and circle the city and dont hit anything in full Auto. It also respons quicker ( maybe looks furhter forward, dunno ) when on the Caucasus map and following terrain with "modest" speed. 220km/h will still make you kiss the next slope

but as a result, I tend to use more full AP these days than before, including ALT HOLD for most ofd the travelling. It is just more relaxing and you can focus on other things, like rolling a last cigareete before you enter cmbat zone, btw, where is the long ordered ash tray ??? hehe

 

Once I enter any other flight phase but traveling I switch to FD mode for quick response and

freedom in movement. Hide, scout, track..and thren engage AP again, hover, AIM SHOOT ..RUN. WHile running away or dodging its always FD, steep dive if high and get the hell out of there as fast as you can as low as you can. ..gather,, relax,,, coordinate..FLY BACK to target zone which is nicely displayd on the Abris. Know where you got shot at, stay further away, look ..track..apply AP aim shoot...move on with FD.

 

 

I have the AP modes and FD on my Warthog throttle and often switch between them when I am flying in the target area. If the weather is bad and wind is strong this is eaven more tricky..

 

To fly beween Target Areas and RTB I use PV800 but I havent programmed any waypoint in a year as I actusally dont need it for the missions I fly online, which is a pitty but still leaves something to learn, add to it and further exploit the Kamov to its full extend.

 

It is an amazing machine, I keeps me thrilled for over 2 years now and still...a long way to go.

 

 

What I love is that ED hasnt forgotten the Kamov, they also love it ;)

[StrongHarm]

Nice writeup BitMaster. I totally agree that high wind situations is really the only time I overuse trim. Else, I overuse AP rather than Trim. One sweet use I found for APaltitude is for popups:

- Get behind some terrain within range of target

-(I like to use ERBL for IP planning, since I can see altitudes, and I can also leave ERBL on so I can see the offplan heading to my ERBL cross)

- Adjust Alt so it's level at 0 with APalt off while still masking terrain

- Turn APalt on

- Increase collective until you 'just start' to increase altitude (getting past the 20% authority) then back it down

- Now, turn APalt OFF and you'll 'pop up above the terrain'

- Turn APalt back on when you're just above terrain.

- Get target lock without laser

- Bottom collective out and turn APalt off until below terrain, then center collective and APalt back on

- Alter lateral position and repeat above

- On second popup from different position, lase and fire, then pop back down

 

As I stated previously, learning to use the AP channels (on/off) to my benefit (rather than trim) has exponentially increased my effectiveness in the shark.

[StrongHarm]

Wow, awesome tips! Why didn't I think of that? My Noob is showing! Thanks for the tips SH!

 

NP Blackwolf. Don't feel unique in the sense that proper use of the AP channels didn't come intuitively to you. Most of us started 'fixed wing' before the Shark, so we're used to a single AP channel that's either all on or all off. The Shark forces us to rethink this or 'become a slave to our trim'. (<looks around> .. that's what she said?).

[Yurgon]

If you have Alt and Hdg bound to your HOTAS it's a much simpler matter than holding the trim button or engaging FD mode.

 

Once I learned to liberate myself from "AP channels always on, no exceptions", I found that I was a much better helo pilot. [...]

 

I totally agree that high wind situations is really the only time I overuse trim. [...]

 

As I stated previously, learning to use the AP channels (on/off) to my benefit (rather than trim) has exponentially increased my effectiveness in the shark.

 

The Shark forces us to rethink this or 'become a slave to our trim'.

 

Okay, so you don't like to trim. I don't think there are many Shark pilots left who haven't read this from you in some thread or another.

 

It works for you, that's fine. But please with sugar on top stop telling the rest of the world that there was such a thing as "using too much trim", because there isn't, and it's simply a matter of preference.

[LIONPRIDE]

Okay, so you don't like to trim...

 

Wow ~ you went thru a lot of trouble to cite each time you've seen it.

 

.

[Yurgon]

Wow ~ you went thru a lot of trouble to cite each time you've seen it.

 

Not really, and that's kind of my point - all of those posts were made in this thread alone and were really easy to pick out.

 

(Unless you meant the technical side. Not sure if you know the "Multiquote" button below each post. It was a matter of two minutes or so to get the quotes assembled).

[Raptor9]

Okay, so you don't like to trim. I don't think there are many Shark pilots left who haven't read this from you in some thread or another.

 

It works for you, that's fine. But please with sugar on top stop telling the rest of the world that there was such a thing as "using too much trim", because there isn't, and it's simply a matter of preference.

 

I agree. There are multiple ways to manage the Shark from a control standpoint, and everyone is wired different. I remember when DCS Black Shark first came out and the utter shouting matches that occurred on the forums regarding whether players should hold down the trimmer while they move the controls and then release it when they get the controls where they want, or if they should keep "bumping" it throughout the maneuver. There were posts that were attacking people that they weren't doing it "properly" if they didn't do it one way or another. It was lunacy. The trick is to separate what's "technique" from "procedure".

[Johnny Dioxin]

ha - yeah, I remember those threads. Used to avoid them like the plague!

[StrongHarm]

And now he's back on the attack again after all these years..

And after I thought he'd finally seen the superior ways of the AP channel..

 

It's my duty to warn people away from your Trimmy corruption, Yurgon... :)

[Yurgon]

It's my duty to warn people away from your Trimmy corruption, Yurgon... :)

 

Only until you get your brain rewired and realize the weirdness of your method, I hope? :D

 

Kidding aside, I can only reiterate that I think there's nothing wrong with either way, it's the evangelizing aspect in favor of one particular method that troubles me (mostly regardless of the method in question, although I obviously have my own favorite way of handling the Shark).