So, is it possible to do a stable pick-up into hover?

[Yurgon]

So all these things are counteract with flight controls. Because of this Gazelle takes off quite nice vertically without moving forward or tilting the tail.

 

No she doesn't.

 

Here is a demonstration of the issue. First 3 slides light on the skids, then a straight pull up into hover.

 

 

I made a track demonstrating the problem.

 

If you can indeed get the chopper light on the skids without sliding, please show us. Otherwise, you talk about something entirely different - and at 50 posts, I thought it should be pretty clear by now what we're all talking about. :music_whistling:

[SnowTiger]

I'm a little insulted that you suggested I had not read this thread from the beginning when in fact I have. It's true, due to the explanation throughout the thread I probably didn't understand the issue, but that's more likely due to the poorly described issue.

 

Furthermore, some here including myself, believe you CAN lift off without gunning the collective. Just because YOU CAN'T doesn't mean everyone has the same issue.

 

I provided a track which clearly shows I CAN LIFT OFF With a Soft/Gentle Increase of Collective (The first lift wasn't nearly as smooth as the second lift off .. half way through the track file .. again I would have provided a video with just that portion if I could have). If you watch the whole, long boring Track (that it is), you will see that I have achieved what you say is not possible (for you).

 

At no time have I EVER done anything but subtle increase of collective power.

 

On the other hand, I probably still don't understand the issue.

If with minimal power the Gazelle slides across the tarmac as seen in "someone else's vid", then reduce the bloody power/collective so it doesn't do that OR increase a bit more and lift off.

The whole argument is silly if you ask me. I mean why is it so important to sit there "twinkle toes lite" under power ? And is this something that other helicopters don't have an issue with ?

If you add power, something has to give. Either you are going to start sliding around or you are going to take off.

I CAN and do consistently lift off straight up WITH Gentle Collective Increase and I don't skid more that a couple inches at most.

 

But most importantly, if after trying to obtain assistance you find that few people are grasping your issue, don't blame them or me for not getting it. It's either too complicated; moot and silly; or just poorly described by you in the first place. In any case, it doesn't require or call for INSULTS.

[SnowTiger]

PS> I'm sorry for Trying to Help.

[MBot]

To expand on the point, looking at the picture below showing the range of full forward/aft cyclic, it becomes apparent that it should be possible to position the rotor disk in a horizontal fashion that neither imparts any horizontal movement or pitching moment on the helicopter.

 

Edit:

The second screenshot is actually more interesting. It is taken during a light on skid forward slide (note 2 kph IAS). The exact orientation of the rotor is a bit hard to see, but it looks about level, perhaps even a bit tilted backwards. Something is definitely wrong here.

Edited May 12, 2016 by MBot

[MBot]

Stupid question of the day: Is the exhaust of the turbine generating any significant thrust?

[Flamin_Squirrel]

To expand on the point, looking at the picture below showing the range of full forward/aft cyclic, it becomes apparent that it should be possible to position the rotor disk in a horizontal fashion that neither imparts any horizontal movement or pitching moment on the helicopter.

 

Indeed.

 

It's almost like when you're in ground contact longitudinal rotor thrust is ignored. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what the problem is.

[Vladinsky]

Why is it important? I imagine it's mainly because a lot of people here value realism over everything else, and I dont think anyone has provided a real life example of a sliding Gazelle so far.

As for what the other helicopters do, two of them have wheels so that would hardly be a good comparison. The huey however does not like to slide what so ever during my experimentation, it'll just tilt back and forth on the ends of the skids, at best I got it to slide forward on the tips.

 

[outlawal2]

It is important because the sliding issue is not a realistic depiction of the real helicopter. And having a flight simulator by definition means a realistic depiction is kind of the point is it not?

 

And to answer your question Mbot, no, there is no forward thrust provided by the engine it simply powers the shaft for the rotors to provide propulsion..

[MBot]

And to answer your question Mbot, no, there is no forward thrust provided by the engine it simply powers the shaft for the rotors to provide propulsion..

 

Well, I didn't meant by design, rather let's say parasitical trust (because the turbine stage will not convert 100% of the energy of the airflow into SHP). I am quite sure there is some thrust, the question is rather if it is of any significance compared to the weight of the helicopter. I think rather not, but it might be worth to firmly confirm it is not.

[decipher]

Indeed.

 

It's almost like when you're in ground contact longitudinal rotor thrust is ignored. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what the problem is.

 

Seems like a plausible explanation. We have to remember that a flight model is basically just a piece of software code with a lot of variables and conditions reacting to the ingame world/physics which is just another piece of software code... so it can be realistic in one state (flight) but might have actual wrong coded physics in another (while on ground).

 

reporting weird behavior of these specific situations should not result in heated discussions of fellow Players against each other, but just in objective descriptions of the observed problems.

to decide if this observed behavior is a result of limitations of the engine, errors of the coder, bugs in the code or realistic and intentional is up to the Developers, after reviewing all reports. it is not a matter of Pilot A saying "i can do it, so it must be real" or Pilot B saying "i cannot do it, so it must be unrealistic!" or pilot C saying "i once saw a gazelle on a safari, they can't fly at all!"...

 

An example from another DCS module: the Mig21 seems to be well received and has a great FM, very indepth systems etc (one of my favorite modules!), but when you taxi onto grass it will get stuck completely and stop moving, even with full afterburners.

[flyer49]

Decipher, that was very well put. This lively debate among passionate pilots will get the desired results in the end. The guys at Polychops are watching and reading this stuff...keep the conversation going in a way that's beneficial to creating the best Gazelle we can get.

[Rangi]

And this is a (not your!) misconception by Ranqi..

 

I have no conception to mis, I was honestly asking the question. I agree the behaviour seems strange but have no real world experience to know either way, I eagerly await comments from the SME.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I set up a mission with a 15m/s wind, pointed into it, and still slid forward on the skids. There's definitely SOMETHING not quite right.

[msalama]

There's definitely SOMETHING not quite right.

 

So it appears. Still, let's hear what the Polychop house pilots have to say. Maybe the CoG is far forward because of the sensor gear or something?

[Mt5_Roie]

Of course we read this stuff. Its part of our jobs.

 

Were waiting to hear feedback from some pilots. But it's an issue we are looking into.

 

Decipher, that was very well put. This lively debate among passionate pilots will get the desired results in the end. The guys at Polychops are watching and reading this stuff...keep the conversation going in a way that's beneficial to creating the best Gazelle we can get.

[msalama]

But it's an issue we are looking into.

 

:thumbup:

[Flamin_Squirrel]

...Maybe the CoG is far forward because of the sensor gear or something?

 

I thought that at first, but CoG won't actually come into play until you start to lift.

 

Of course we read this stuff. Its part of our jobs.

 

Were waiting to hear feedback from some pilots. But it's an issue we are looking into.

 

Thanks!

[Bearfoot]

Looks like the issue is addressed and possibly fixed here!

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2779766&postcount=1

[aledmb]

it feels a bit strange when you're on the ground and you keep adding collective very, very slowly.

 

the helo doesn't leave the ground smoothly... it suddenly jumps up a few feet, even though you just added another milimeter of collective input... there's no transition... it feels like you're glued to the ground, sliding a bit forward or backward at most... then all of a sudden you're up in the air.

 

doesn't that feel weird for you guys?

[FragBum]

it feels a bit strange when you're on the ground and you keep adding collective very, very slowly.

 

the helo doesn't leave the ground smoothly... it suddenly jumps up a few feet, even though you just added another milimeter of collective input... there's no transition... it feels like you're glued to the ground, sliding a bit forward or backward at most... then all of a sudden you're up in the air.

 

doesn't that feel weird for you guys?

 

Well first this is an old thread and the FM was somewhat different, was it possible to do a clean pickup and hover back then, Yes absolutely.

 

Okay fast forward to the current revised FM and again absolutely, this is quite an old thread but the pickup to hover is for me fine and easy, even better then before.

 

 

Your controls will effect how this model reacts, I'm away from home ATM but will come back to this and try to help you.

[aledmb]

Well first this is an old thread and the FM was somewhat different, was it possible to do a clean pickup and hover back then, Yes absolutely.

 

Okay fast forward to the current revised FM and again absolutely, this is quite an old thread but the pickup to hover is for me fine and easy, even better then before.

 

 

Your controls will effect how this model reacts, I'm away from home ATM but will come back to this and try to help you.

 

i understand all of that.

 

it just feels that the pickup part is too abrupt to me, unlike other helos i've tried in a few sims.

 

another thing i find a bit weird is that this behavior seems to be with the M model... the minigun gazelle is a lot more convincing when leaving the ground.

 

i've no problem coming to a hover (although it's not as smooth as i would like)... it's just that leaving the ground does not happen in a nice flow in the M model.

[FragBum]

i understand all of that.

 

it just feels that the pickup part is too abrupt to me, unlike other helos i've tried in a few sims.

 

another thing i find a bit weird is that this behavior seems to be with the M model... the minigun gazelle is a lot more convincing when leaving the ground.

 

i've no problem coming to a hover (although it's not as smooth as i would like)... it's just that leaving the ground does not happen in a nice flow in the M model.

 

 

Well I tried the M and L variant with same TOW and they feel fairly similar, I see that TOW out of the box in mission builder has the minigun version about 50KG lighter.

 

Pickup seems much the muchness between the variants however I do use a collective for control input.

 

I'm also not sure whether it's placebo because of the relatively unrestricted view out of the minigun version but it "feels" better to fly. ;)

[aledmb]

Well I tried the M and L variant with same TOW and they feel fairly similar, I see that TOW out of the box in mission builder has the minigun version about 50KG lighter.

 

Pickup seems much the muchness between the variants however I do use a collective for control input.

 

I'm also not sure whether it's placebo because of the relatively unrestricted view out of the minigun version but it "feels" better to fly. ;)

 

yeah, i still feel that picking up the minigun version to a hover is a breeze and much more believable when leaving the ground.

 

the M version is a b*tch.

 

i still don't get why we need to keep adjusting the collective when in ground effect and very low to the ground... it still goes up and down without command.

[FragBum]

yeah, i still feel that picking up the minigun version to a hover is a breeze and much more believable when leaving the ground.

 

the M version is a b*tch.

 

i still don't get why we need to keep adjusting the collective when in ground effect and very low to the ground... it still goes up and down without command.

 

Well air is fairly compressible and not very consistent giving a variable amount of lift if it's any constellation as you practice you will get to a point where all input to the aircraft is automatic.

 

When hovering I really don't think about it aircraft moves input goes in to correct it. It's like pick hovering and setdown I don't look at anything just the frame of the cockpit and the outside world.

 

This varying height change also occurs in Huey and Mi8 although not as predominant and I can say in an R44 as well although to be fair that was real world effect and the trick there is to use only enough input to correct for any sink or rise. no I am not a pilot!

 

Actually try a simple mission and add wind at say 6mtr/sec add some turbulence and click on dynamic weather and see how that feels. I find no wind to be totally sterile when flying.

[aledmb]

Actually try a simple mission and add wind at say 6mtr/sec add some turbulence and click on dynamic weather and see how that feels. I find no wind to be totally sterile when flying.

 

yep, that's what i'm planning for next week. :D

 

thanks for the input!