Refuel vs repair times make no sense

[mvsgas]

7 minutes just fill the external tanks

 

Edited May 12, 2016 by mvsgas

[Fri13]

My point is that the repair time is totally fudged for gameplay reasons, so why isn't the fueling time?

 

Or at the very least allow weapons to be loaded while fueling...

 

 

That is reason why ED added the logistic system to the airports, where mission creator will assign amount of aircrafts, weapons etc there.

 

And the mission creator should be doing that you need to park the aircraft to corresponding parking slot (assigned for you via radio) and then once you have shut down the aircraft and it is damaged, you are kicked out to lobby to select a new parked aircraft, that is then discounted from the airfield pool of available aircrafts.

 

This would simply increase the mentality for virtual pilots not to go challenge enemies in stupid moves and actually try to survive than waste aircrafts.

 

The other thing now would be to make the virtual pilot to be slotted, so you are required to be picked up by AI or someone else with SAR helicopters. And you can have just a 2-3 virtual pilots in the airfield (DCS ID or something based) that then requires to be replenished by returning pilots to airfield.

 

Suddenly all the repairs and all the shoot down situations would turn to be different as you would need to spend lots of time doing nothing if you do stupid things.

[Hadwell]

way to state the obvious, you can lose half a wing, get a few hundred bullet holes in your plane, and in 160 seconds, some dude can come up and apply some magical duct tape that instantly makes your plane like new, also, it can be re-armed and refuelled in a couple minutes flat, with the engines still running (unless it's fc3)

 

usually people find this out pretty quick after they start playing dcs....

 

reason being, unlike real life, in dcs, you can just respawn and take a new one, therefore having a short rearm/repair time is the only way it even makes sense to have it at all. since really it's just for fun.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Hadwell

[schroedi]

If people want the full realism do it like that:

If your aircraft needs to be refueled/rearmed wait 30min.

If your aircraft is damaged, don't play DCS for the next two weeks until your aircraft is repaired

If you are killed, never play the game again - you are dead.

 

For all the others, do it like you want it. It is still a game.

[Pocket Sized]

Again, I'm not saying the repair time should be increased. I quite like how it is now.

 

I think the times should be ordered by how "involved" they are. So rearming would take the least time (let's ignore the problem of replacing gun ammo) then refueling, then repair. So refueling could be reduced to 2-3 minutes to fill the tanks maybe? Idk, I'm gonna add this to the OP.

[mvsgas]

One of the reasons I would appreciate a shorter time for defuel if it ever gets change is when joining a server to fly the SU-27, you have to defuel if your target area is only 5 to 10 minutes away or run the risk of overstressing the airframe or flying at less than optimal weight.

Another is the A-10, which is not the fastest and reducing weight does improve many of it flying characteristics. Beside it only need around 50 fuel for an hour flight.

Yet another is the SU-33. Landing on the carrier is a lot easier below 3000kg, if I have a short flight, that is a lot of fuel to burn or dump.

I am all about realism to weapons employment, aircraft limitations, etc. With that said, to refuel, it is an option to get another aircraft if I don't want to wait, people are correct on that. But when the new aircraft still has the wrong fuel load out, you would have to defuel again if playing online, is it really that big of a deal if we can refuel, defuel in a few minutes like the arming and repair are?

 

If realism to that extent is so important, well lets go all the way. Let us have engine no start, hung starts, hot start, auto acceleration, engine fires during start or shutdown, FCR fails in the middle of a dog fight. Hung missiles and bombs, jam gun, maintenance non deliveries for the flying schedule, flights cancellation, hot brakes, hydraulic leaks, etc.

Edited May 12, 2016 by mvsgas

[GGTharos]

Fueling uses a simulated fuel flow of ~3000lbs/min, IIRC. The time it takes for the truck to get there, all the hook-ups and security procedures are omitted. It's probably not going to change.

[FUgaijin]

IRL an F-15 takes about 7-8 min to refuel depending on current load and R-11 operator. add an additional 3-5 min per bag. Defueling =triple above times. An F-16 doesn't take long at all maybe 5-6 min, mostly due to pressure restrictions ~35psi at the nozzle compared to the 55 psi for the 15. biggest factor is truck and operator and how much help the crew chief provided puling the hose. did it for 13 years in the USAF.

 

Also this is not counting the time between the call from MOC to being dispatched and driving to the acft etc. this is solely pumping times. on avg it is aprox 30 min per fighter and 60-150 for lg frames.

[FUgaijin]

Fueling uses a simulated fuel flow of ~3000lbs/min, IIRC. The time it takes for the truck to get there, all the hook-ups and security procedures are omitted. It's probably not going to change.

 

IRL its closer to 4k lbs per minute, or 600 GPM at full 55psi. the number is reduced for lower PSI. Not all Acft are capable of 55psi and not all trucks pump at 600gpm. F-15 yes F-16, A-10 no. This is for USAF R-11.

[jcbak]

I can't believe this is an issue.

[FUgaijin]

Mvsgas what about a hotpit refuel? How long does that take?

 

Same as normal. Hotpit just means less turnaround time due to shut down and restart etc. Fueling is pretty constant across the board since all pumping systems in the USAF are designed to regulate flow rates not to exceed 600gpm per nozzle.

[sideshow]

Again, I'm not saying the repair time should be increased. I quite like how it is now.

 

I think the times should be ordered by how "involved" they are. So rearming would take the least time (let's ignore the problem of replacing gun ammo) then refueling, then repair. So refueling could be reduced to 2-3 minutes to fill the tanks maybe? Idk, I'm gonna add this to the OP.

 

There are a ton of factors that play into refueling and defueling an aircraft. No two jets are alike, just like no two fuel trucks, or fuel pits are alike. Some jets, due to age and other factors can be slower at refueling. As far defueling goes there's also factors there, for example. If you bring a navy jet back to the ship, and it just refuelled from an airforce tanker, you can forget about defueling it, or even putting it in the hanger. JP-8 is more volatile than JP-5, therefore you'll have to spin the engines up, and burn the fuel out, if it's scheduled to go to the hanger. You can't pump jp-8 back into the ship's fuel supply, due to possibly making the entire stock more explosive. After you burn the fuel out you refuel it, to further dilute the JP-8, and the flash point is tested again. If it's still too volatile you repeat the process. That can take hours if you need to burn off a few thousand pounds, especially if flight ops are going on and the deck boss won't let you go above idle because of it, you're talking 420-700 pounds-per-hour (per engine) at idle, vs. about 2000 pounds per hour at 80% N2 which was the highest we cold run the engines without rigging it for a high power turn.

 

Being deployed away from your main base also causes issues when it comes to even basic maintenance. Sometimes parts are scarce, so even a simple maintenance task can take hours, if not days due to a lack of spare parts. Sometimes the only option is to rob a jet that's hard down to keep the rest of the jets flying. When major issues, like combat damage, come into play your only option may be to just hanger the jet and rob what parts you can. In real life you may have to fly in tech reps from the company that built the jet (being that you may now have structural issues to go along with your electrical and mechanical ones) to determine if it's repairable on station. If not the thing may get packed up and shipped home on a transport.

 

When I was in the navy we had a jet that was damaged beyond our repair capabilities on the ship. We stuck it in a corner, used it for parts, and craned it off when we got back home so it could go to the maintenance depot. While this is probably the most realistic simulator out there, there's things that just aren't going to be modeled because it won't bring anything to the experience.

Edited May 12, 2016 by sideshow

[VIKBELL]

The refuel pressure is only 15 to 25 psi and any more and the gamma coupling will start leaking.... Also you have to make sure the grounding wire is hooked up.:thumbup:

[Oceandar]

That is reason why ED added the logistic system to the airports, where mission creator will assign amount of aircrafts, weapons etc there.

 

And the mission creator should be doing that you need to park the aircraft to corresponding parking slot (assigned for you via radio) and then once you have shut down the aircraft and it is damaged, you are kicked out to lobby to select a new parked aircraft, that is then discounted from the airfield pool of available aircrafts.

 

This would simply increase the mentality for virtual pilots not to go challenge enemies in stupid moves and actually try to survive than waste aircrafts.

 

The other thing now would be to make the virtual pilot to be slotted, so you are required to be picked up by AI or someone else with SAR helicopters. And you can have just a 2-3 virtual pilots in the airfield (DCS ID or something based) that then requires to be replenished by returning pilots to airfield.

 

Suddenly all the repairs and all the shoot down situations would turn to be different as you would need to spend lots of time doing nothing if you do stupid things.

Love this idea, might prevent me from getting shot down over and over again in MP Lol. So I know when to stop flying :D

Didn't MDS server apply this ?

 

Gam Zeh Ya'avor - King Salomon

[mvsgas]

IRL an F-15 takes about 7-8 min to refuel depending on current load and R-11 operator. add an additional 3-5 min per bag. Defueling =triple above times. An F-16 doesn't take long at all maybe 5-6 min, mostly due to pressure restrictions ~35psi at the nozzle compared to the 55 psi for the 15. biggest factor is truck and operator and how much help the crew chief provided puling the hose. did it for 13 years in the USAF.

 

Also this is not counting the time between the call from MOC to being dispatched and driving to the acft etc. this is solely pumping times. on avg it is aprox 30 min per fighter and 60-150 for lg frames.

What F-16 where you refueling? Did they have three tanks? If so it make since, F-16 like to vent fuel overboard with 3 tanks, I don't know why but they always do. So when we refuel jets with three tanks we tend to tell the POL guys to go easy on the pressure, whish take even longer. We refuel at 55 psi in Luke, Osan, Kunsan, Aviano and every other base we deploy or went TDY( Al Udeid, Eielson, Cold lake, Iwakuni, Tyndall, Zaragoza, Decimomannu and same in Holloman with F-117)

 

1F-16CG-2-00GV-00-1(1 September 2010), paragraph 00.10.2, page 00-50

The aircraft can be refueled by either ground pressure systems or flying boom-type aircraft. Ground refueling is accomplished through a receptacle on the lower left side just forward of the wing trailing edge. A fuel pressure of 55 PSI ± 5 PSI is applied to the refuel manifold causing the refuel shutoff valve in the forward and aft reservoirs to open, allowing fuel to enter each reservoir tank.

 

I can't believe this is an issue.

I don't think is an issue. Some think is ok and others think it would be nice for refuel/defuel to take less time.

[TwoLate]

I can't believe this is an issue.

I cant believe I read all 40 post.

[Oceandar]

I cant believe I read all 40 post.

I can't believe that I can't believe....

 

Gam Zeh Ya'avor - King Salomon

[Chrinik]

Don´t know if someone already mentioned this, but...refuel while you repair? It cuts down your combined refuel time tremendously.

[USSInchon]

I mean if you really want your aircraft in the airframe shop for six months be my guest. That's realistic.

 

Well it would cut down on folks flying to the AO and getting shot down.

[DeepDrummer]

I like it the way it is mostly. It's barely enough time for a washroom break, laundry switchover and another armload or two of firewood before the second wave gets close to my base. I never respawn. If I wreck my plane, my virtual CO makes me clean the latrine.

[Pelmo]

Try to do so in multiplayer:

 

once you have chosen the aircraft and took place in the cockpit, raising the landing gear.

Call ground personnel giving the repair order.

As soon begins to count down, lowers the landing gear, select the desired weaponry, fuel level, and done!

You'll see that while the plane is repaired begins very slowly refueling, but just finish the repair you will see how the fuel level will rise very quickly.

A repair is completed you will end up with a full tank!

In three minutes instead of 5 or more!

[ESAc_matador]

if you want realism... if you get home and need repair... Put that aircraft unserviciable for a day at least. If not a week.

[NeilWillis]

And while it is being repaired, convene a courts martial to investigate how you damaged government property too?

 

If it was battle damage, you'll also need to make an appointment with the psychologist to ensure you don't end up suffering from post traumatic stress disorder.

 

Or we could simply accept that the repair facility is a little bit compressed, and the refuelling takes as long as it takes. Plus of course we're never responsible for costing the government millions or likely to suffer the after effects of battle fatigue.

[amazingme]

This is getting ridiculous..

[Scooternutz]

Because it doesn't need to be ridiculous?

It's still pretty quick..the fuel truck is immediately at your position, pumping fuel. Your ground crew has every piece of ordnance within arm's reach and 40 invisible men to put them on your wings like a NASCAR pit crew. :lol:

All a matter of opinion I suppose, but of all the nits to pick I found this a strange one..

 

Perfect!