AIM-7M Sparrow performance

[Dudikoff]

Regarding pilot training and tactics. If Iraq had F-15s and USA had used Mig-29 during the Gulf War... Would the outcome still be the same? No MiG-29 losses in air-air combat? I don't think so, but who knows...

 

The MiG-29A is a short-range simple point defense fighter with poor radar thus relying heavily on GCI guidance to its targets and the Iraqi IADS system was rendered inoperative within the first few days. Add to that rather poor pilots probably even by Soviet standards (and IIRC they were among the best of what Iraqi had), the terrain which offers no masking features and an opponent superior in every possible way (better planes, pilots, missiles, AWACS support, jammers, etc.) and it's easy to see the Iraqis stood no chance.

 

In any case, the Coalition couldn't have used the MiG-29A for their air-superiority missions as its range was too short and it couldn't be refueled in air. F-15C/D also had NCTR capabilities which were required IIRC during the Gulf War for BVR engagements to avoid friendly fire incidents (and e.g. the Tomcats did not so they were kept back for fleet defense only). Now, hypothetically, if NCTR option was not available (e.g. Su-27 instead of F-15C), the ROE might have been relaxed with some operational adjustments depending on what the other side had at their disposal.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Dudikoff

[kobeshow]

Well, while the amraam is not nearly close to being perfect, R-XX are just ridiculusly pathetic. Last time I used them, 50% of launches on the optimal intercept dot ended up in the missile pulling 30G's from launch, which isn't normal for a BVR missile.

 

This is because you have a misconception about the dot. It does not show the optimal intercept trajectory like in the F15, it shows the direction in which the radar is pointed when locking a target, so if you put the dot in the middle of your HUD you will be pointing straight at the target.

[Frostie]

About 28.5 x MiG-21 claims for F-15s.

 

 

38 MiG-21 kills, what I should have said was 80-90% MiG-21/23 type a/c kills.

 

Regarding pilot training and tactics. If Iraq had F-15s and USA had used Mig-29 during the Gulf War... Would the outcome still be the same? No MiG-29 losses in air-air combat? I don't think so, but who knows... ShuRugal, you are missing the point. It's not a discussion about pilot skill, it's a discussion if F-15C with Aim-7M is outperformed by MiG-29 and the Flanker. I would like to see the real life pilot who actually chooses a Flanker or MiG-29 over the F-15 Eagle. In DCS, the Eagle is on even grounds or worse without the amraam, and I don't think it's realistic.

 

 

The only fighter of the same generation as we have in FC3 is the MIG-29 and they accounted for less than 8% of the F-15s kill record. These were by USAF F-15s facing inferior vastly outnumbered opposition while also having advantages of AWACS controllers and jamming the inferior tech countries GCI. And half of those kills were with AIM-120 equipped fighters.

 

F-15 armed with AIM-7 vs MiG-29A with R-27R = 5-0 (not all Aim7 kills)

Su27 armed with R-27R vs MIG-29A with R-27R = 2-0 (no R27 kills)

 

Not great stats to draw any conclusions from and certainly nothing there to claim out right superiority over Su27 using R27ER with an F-15 using AIM-7.

 

Bear in mind that the MiG-29As shot down are inferior exported versions and importantly have weaker radars, don't have Jammers, and don't carry the R-27ER like the MiGs and Flankers in Flaming Cliffs. You're trying to say a sheep is the same as a wolf.

[QuiGon]

The only fighter of the same generation as we have in FC3 is the MIG-29 and they accounted for less than 8% of the F-15s kill record. These were by USAF F-15s facing inferior vastly outnumbered opposition while also having advantages of AWACS controllers and jamming the inferior tech countries GCI. And half of those kills were with AIM-120 equipped fighters.

 

F-15 armed with AIM-7 vs MiG-29A with R-27R = 5-0 (not all Aim7 kills)

Su27 armed with R-27R vs MIG-29A with R-27R = 2-0 (no R27 kills)

 

Not great stats to draw any conclusions from and certainly nothing there to claim out right superiority over Su27 using R27ER with an F-15 using AIM-7.

 

Bear in mind that the MiG-29As shot down are inferior exported versions and importantly have weaker radars, don't have Jammers, and don't carry the R-27ER like the MiGs and Flankers in Flaming Cliffs. You're trying to say a sheep is the same as a wolf.

 

Totally agree. Just one question: What are those two Su-27 kills?

[Martillo1]

Totally agree. Just one question: What are those two Su-27 kills?

 

I guess Etiopía vs Eritrea.

[QuiGon]

I guess Etiopía vs Eritrea.

 

You're probably right. I thought there have just been shots fired, but no hits achieved, but that was only for the R27 missile and Frostie already confirmed this in his post ("no R27 kills") :doh:

So yeah, it was probably there, just with different weapons. Thanks :)

 

Edit: I just looked it up: http://www.dankalia.com/archive/2003/030117.htm

All clear now :)

Edited May 19, 2016 by QuiGon

[Schmidtfire]

In the case Etiopia vs Eritrea, from what I remember, up to 24 R-27's were fired without scoring any hits. Only heaters such as R60 or R73 was effective. Yes, I think the R-27 type missile has serious issues, not present in DCS. But It probably works in perfect launching conditions against non moving targets and such, but thats my theory.

 

The MiG-29A is still a force to be dealt with flying the F-15 without amraams. Since Aim-7 performance is poor, the MiG-29A has no hard time closing the gap and scoring a kill.

I fly the MiG-29 a LOT and without amraams the F-15 is toast. He might get in a sneaky Aim-9 shot, but there is almost zero chance he's hitting me with the Aim-7M.

 

I also like flying the F-15, but when I go for the Aim-7M loadout I always regret it. The R-27s and ER's are comparable or better and I have a really hard time to believe thats the case in real life. That forces all Eagle drivers to load up piles of Aim-120C and spam em' to have a decent chance in mp. How could america even go to war with F-15s loaded up with sparrows?

In DCS I feel like a sitting duck, unless I really get the drop on someone. The question is... is this realistic? Would be intresting if someone has results from exercises with F-15s vs MiG-29/Su-27s.

[karambiatos]

In the case Etiopia vs Eritrea, from what I remember, up to 24 R-27's were fired without scoring any hits. Only heaters such as R60 or R73 was effective. Yes, I think the R-27 type missile has serious issues, not present in DCS. But It probably works in perfect launching conditions against non moving targets and such, but thats my theory.

 

what were the launch parameters of those R-27s?

[QuiGon]

[...]The question is... is this realistic? Would be intresting if someone has results from exercises with F-15s vs MiG-29/Su-27s.

I'm afraid there are no such results, because it would require live fireing at friendly aircraft, because simulated shots would proof nothing :(

 

what were the launch parameters of those R-27s?

I don't think anyone knows them, which makes judging the R-27s performance pretty difficult.

Edited May 19, 2016 by QuiGon

[winchesterdelta1]

You don't know the answer to your own question??? Also said here multiple times!!! The US brought all support they had. From AWACS to JOINT STARS. Superior numbers, tactics and planes.

 

Try flying with a dedicated wingman in DCS and suddenly all changes. Or maybe support the friendly's that are being engaged. Also you can easily merge to 5 /6 miles against a ER platform and keeping the AIm7 locked. Dodge the first 2 / 3 missiles and ET's at 9 miles you fire the first AIM-7. get ready to defeat the 3th 4th missile while keeping the lock. He has to maneuver as well. To defeath the sparrow. So after you turned back in at approx 5 miles you fire your second AIM7. If he does not defend this one he is death.

 

Doesn't work always but most times it does. Even against good players. Because ER sucks as well. But be aware they can also use this tactic against you. And if he has a wingman paying attention your death. But if you have a wingman you can do some combinations as well. We all have to deal with the same issue's you are having. But we do get kills with it. Why can't you? And also.. the most people that just spam AMRAAMS are the people that get killed the quickest. Unless you are stupid enough to fall for their 10+ Miles SPAMRAAM shots.

[Schmidtfire]

QuiGon and karambiatos, some aircraft was piloted by mercenaries who just wanted to get paid and land safe. So I would assume that a portion of those shots occured at max range...

 

Winchesterdelta1, that's exactly what is wrong. I shouldn't need to dodge 2 to 3 missiles on my way in with the F-15C and Aim-7M since Im quite sure that is a superior missile to the R-27 family (especially coupled with the F-15s radar).

[Nerd1000]

QuiGon and karambiatos, some aircraft was piloted by mercenaries who just wanted to get paid and land safe. So I would assume that a portion of those shots occured at max range...

 

Winchesterdelta1, that's exactly what is wrong. I shouldn't need to dodge 2 to 3 missiles on my way in with the F-15C and Aim-7M since Im quite sure that is a superior missile to the R-27 family (especially coupled with the F-15s radar).

Uhhh... you realize that a missile being crap is no barrier to people firing them at you, right?

[*Rage*]

QuiGon and karambiatos, some aircraft was piloted by mercenaries who just wanted to get paid and land safe. So I would assume that a portion of those shots occured at max range...

 

Winchesterdelta1, that's exactly what is wrong. I shouldn't need to dodge 2 to 3 missiles on my way in with the F-15C and Aim-7M since Im quite sure that is a superior missile to the R-27 family (especially coupled with the F-15s radar).

 

Just lol. Im quite sure red velvet cake is a superior cake to victoria sponge.

 

Are you reading what people are replying to you with?

[Frostie]

Just lol. Im quite sure red velvet cake is a superior cake to victoria sponge.

 

 

Do you even bake?

I know some SMEs that would disagree. :D

[QuiGon]

QuiGon and karambiatos, some aircraft was piloted by mercenaries who just wanted to get paid and land safe. So I would assume that a portion of those shots occured at max range...

 

Winchesterdelta1, that's exactly what is wrong. I shouldn't need to dodge 2 to 3 missiles on my way in with the F-15C and Aim-7M since Im quite sure that is a superior missile to the R-27 family (especially coupled with the F-15s radar).

 

Apart from range (which is supposed to be much better for the R-27) it is difficult to make any judgements about the missile performance, especially the R-27 due to lack of data.

[winchesterdelta1]

QuiGon and karambiatos, some aircraft was piloted by mercenaries who just wanted to get paid and land safe. So I would assume that a portion of those shots occured at max range...

 

Winchesterdelta1, that's exactly what is wrong. I shouldn't need to dodge 2 to 3 missiles on my way in with the F-15C and Aim-7M since Im quite sure that is a superior missile to the R-27 family (especially coupled with the F-15s radar).

 

I don't think what you don't really understand what we are trying to say here. Do you fly with full AWACS support in DCS? Do you fly with superior tactics? Do you fly with a excellent wingman that knows every trick out of the book on how to engage bandits and when to extend / bug out? Do you communicate in game with other flight on a pro fighter pilot level so you have almost 100% situational awareness and dominate the virtual DCS sky's only because of your superior SA? Are the pilots you fight online all out classed by you?

If yes.. Then the AIM-7 should be enough for you to carry. And you would dominate with it. Because all your engagements would start with a superior advantage. Not because of the missile you are carrying. But because you have superior support, tactics and skill. Even if your missile sucks worse than the ER or AIM7. It seems that you think your missile makes your plane superior. But it's you skill, support and SA that makes you superior.

If you are not so stupid as me charging in any engagement you should be able to have many AIm-7 kills without the enemy shooting to much missiles at you. Even against a SPAMRAAM platform as you call it you should win.

 

You have to start with yourself and get a good team together to be able to be superior with AIM-7. On your own it's not going to work against these DCS Flanker pilots that are flying the Russian birds in DCS since the beginning of times. Especially in the last year and a half all DCS pilots became really really good.

[Ktulu2]

This is because you have a misconception about the dot. It does not show the optimal intercept trajectory like in the F15, it shows the direction in which the radar is pointed when locking a target, so if you put the dot in the middle of your HUD you will be pointing straight at the target.

 

 

Oh ok...i've flown the flanker about 2-3 times a year and a half ago.. What's the equivalent to the F15 dot than?

[IASGATG]

I don't get why these threads have so many words when 3 pictures solves the entire conversation.

 

AIM-7F

 

AIM-7F

 

R-27ER

 

R-27R

 

The DLZ charts are DLZ charts so treat them as such.

 

As we can see the missiles are under performing their ranges by about 50%.

 

Wow 'Scat you're right again thanks so much.

 

Oh you guys, you're welcome. :^)

[winchesterdelta1]

Dammit.. now i want better AIM-7's to.

[probad]

just numbers inflation, everyone gets more range

good pilots stay good

bad pilots stay bad

 

big deal

 

 

we'll still get regular threads asking for fantasy buffs based on oft-quoted sensationalist conclusions made by writers with no subject matter expertise.

Edited May 19, 2016 by probad

[IASGATG]

just numbers inflation, everyone gets more range

good pilots stay good

bad pilots stay bad

 

big deal

 

 

we'll still get regular threads asking for fantasy buffs based on oft-quoted sensationalist conclusions made by writers with no subject matter expertise.

 

This is a much better situation than what we have now. :)

[Ktulu2]

just numbers inflation, everyone gets more range

good pilots stay good

bad pilots stay bad

 

big deal

 

BUT WVR gets rare, which is a BIG change

[Basher54321]

The figures for the Aim-7 in the Gulf War are 88 shots in total, achieving 24 kills resulting in a PK of 27,3%.

 

 

Ahh see that figure of 88 was in the BVR Promise and Reality report from way back wasn't it.

 

In the GWAPs table he got it from you can see the actual number expended - note that "expended" doesn't necessarily mean fired in combat at a enemy aircraft.

 

 

Expended by USN

AIM-7M = 14

 

Expended by USAF

AIM-7M = 67

 

Expended by USMC

AIM-7M = 7

 

 

 

All the documented engagements for the USAF F-15C in 1991 give me about:

 

50 actual attempts

 

out of that

 

23 x claims

7 x no motor fires

4 x stated as missed

1 x hung

 

So what about the 15 left - well some missed - but not all because majority of times 2 or 3 AIM-7s were fired at the same target and just flew into the fireball.

 

Should hopefully give an idea of how irrelevant simple PK ratios usually are.

 

 

 

Engagement range was usually under 10 miles.

[Schmidtfire]

Oh lord... Many senitive toes being stepped on here ;) I hear you... training, tactics, and sa matters. But to say that the airframe and weapons don't matter is total bs. Two equally sklled pilots engage in BVR, one in F15 and one in a Mig29, both with SARH missiles. It doesent take a genious to figure out that the Mig29 should be at a disadvantage until WVR. Why do you think that the Mig29 got the helmet sight early on? They figured out that the BVR was not up to par with fighters such as the F15. Im not saying that ED should change anything. But the red birds should be a bit more flawed and their R27 should be a bit more unreliable and outperformed by the Aim-7M. Realistic as the technology often was rewerse engineered and industry frequently had quality issues.

[Tello]

You better hurry up and find documentation to back up your claims before the forum kings start the train. TJUK TJUUUK - Oh I hear it getting closer! :smartass: I hope that your weapon platform and systems get all the love you think it should. I love being the flanking underdog :lol:

 

Two equally sklled pilots engage in BVR, one in F15 and one in a Mig29, both with SARH missiles. It doesent take a genious to figure out that the Mig29 should be at a disadvantage until WVR.

 

Why do you think that the Mig29 got the helmet sight early on? They figured out that the BVR was not up to par with fighters such as the F15. Im not saying that ED should change anything. But the red birds should be a bit more flawed and their R27 should be a bit more unreliable and outperformed by the Aim-7M. Realistic as the technology often was rewerse engineered and industry frequently had quality issues.