First flight - and my experience

[Fri13]

Okay, I made my first flight in Gazelle. I read a lot about "OMG, it is trying to kill me!" and expected far worse from my first flight:

 

It was very seriously tense flight as the 1:1 controls (untouched in settings) are seriously sensitive. I noticed after the flight that I had to keep my wrist very tense as I was doing just 2-3mm movements with the stick and few millimeters with pedals and I barely touched to the collective. All slightest moves were super effective in the Gazelle. So effective that my opinion is that they seriously needs an overhaul and rechecking as 100% controls can't be such that you use only less than 1% of the controllers movement range. And I have 35cm extension on the stick....

 

But everything went well, I didn't crash. I got basic testing circle done without losing control and overall performance was good, but seriously that control ratio just feels to me totally unrealistic. But I can't actually say so as I haven't flew the real SA342M or even seen one flying. But based the control sensitivities, I would say that this helicopter would get everyone killed in first moment when pilot loses its nerves or focus from controls and surroundings.

 

Of course I still didn't try the trim or any autopilots channels etc, as I don't understand those, just seen the few starting videos etc. So need to check the manual for the process. I just put gazelle empty from start-up to see what first experience would be and...

 

I can see that I will start liking it more in the future. So far it just doesn't live up for its agility and user friendliness.

 

 

 

That is my "basic circus" for quick control testing and adjustments that I have used in the past. And I did fly again after Gazelle all the other helicopters the same circus and recorded even video from them for comparison purposes.

 

The experience is that KA-50 is the winner by hands down, it is like you don't have limitations from that machine what it can do.

 

The UH-1H is like a nice chilling slow bird that does things very well but, is just slow.

 

The Mi-8MTv2 is like UH-1H but just heavier and requires more time to slow things down and take a curves slightly wider.

 

The Gazelle.... It is trying to kill itself, and everyone on board!

[Mt5_Roie]

Video isn't working. Can you link it again?

 

As for the controls....do a youtube search for BBC flying soldier. Start at episode two...you'll see how sensitive the controls are.

[Fri13]

Video isn't working. Can you link it again?

 

Works for me, but I see sometimes problems with that "YouTube video" link thing. Here is is without it:

[ame]

[/ame]

 

 

As for the controls....do a youtube search for BBC flying soldier. Start at episode two...you'll see how sensitive the controls are.

 

I am talking havinga 35cm extension on a stick, and still doing a 1-2mm control movements on the stick. Basically keeping the stick still. If I have tremendous problem to use cyclic with that extension in 100% stable platform at home, then how I should be able to fly that helicopter safely in moving platform that is shaking, not even talking yet in a combat.

 

It is well known fact that helicopters cyclic requires very gentle movements (and that is now easy to find out when you fly one :smilewink:) but the DCS variant now just have the defaults way too sensitive for Gazelle.

 

If you mean the video of this:

 

 

Yes, you can easily see it is normal control movements, but I can't even more that much at all or the gazelle flips over. That movement is like a 20-50mm movements and I am talking just 1-2mm movements with a 35cm extension. I now set the curves and it becomes far more closer to UH-1H or Mi-8MTv2 to operate by their defaults, but that makes it unpleasant to fly as you lose the touch.

I can't imagine what it is to fly Gazelle now with a default non-extended stick that has a centering spring....

Edited June 7, 2016 by Fri13

[anasithera]

I can't imagine what it is to fly Gazelle now with a default non-extended stick that has a centering spring....

 

I've got an Xtreme 3D Pro with no extension and I do just fine.

 

For a little clarification: Deflection is a measurement of the lateral movement from center at the top of the flightstick.

 

What you're saying is that you're keeping the top of a two foot tall flight stick within a circle whose diameter (distance from center to outer edge) is smaller than the little pegs on a lego brick, which are 4.8mm wide.

 

Even without doing any trigonometry I very, very seriously doubt you're flipping this chopper with inputs that small, if you can even keep the stick within that small a circle. This isn't a coordination thing, this is a 'that is a ridiculously flipping small area' thing. Your heartbeat making your hands throb alone probably moves you more than two millimeters in any given direction.

 

My stick is probably eight inches long and it takes 5 centimeters deflection to flip this chopper upside-down. I have, however, 70% saturation, so the top 30% of the controls is entirely inaccessible to me.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think that your support for your argument is unreasonable and subjective in the extreme.

[Slazi]

Fri, your experience doesn't sound normal. To flip, I need around 35 percent movement or more left or right. You sound as if you are moving 1 or 2 percent... Perhaps something with your setup?

[Fri13]

I've got an Xtreme 3D Pro with no extension and I do just fine.

 

For a little clarification: Deflection is a measurement of the lateral movement from center at the top of the flightstick.

 

Exactly.

 

What you're saying is that you're keeping the top of a two foot tall flight stick within a circle whose diameter (distance from center to outer edge) is smaller than the little pegs on a lego brick, which are 4.8mm wide.

 

Yes, exactly.

 

My stick is probably eight inches long and it takes 5 centimeters deflection to flip this chopper upside-down. I have, however, 70% saturation, so the top 30% of the controls is entirely inaccessible to me.

 

I need a lot of curves and saturation adjustments to get on that (then removing the capability to do possible harder maneuvers, once I get the inputs sorted out so I can have a good control for gazelle).

 

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think that your support for your argument is unreasonable and subjective in the extreme.

 

That is the thing, I don't move the stick really. As you can see, the first flight was very choppy, I had very overextended moves and so on. But I had tired arm after coming to the hover, and then I noticed that I am not moving the joystick. And you can even see that while I have TrackIR, I don't really look around as it was so tense flying first flying experience.

 

I just went to test things and every other module produce good flight with default (unmodified) axis and I have no problems to fly them and have accurately controlled (now what sudden extreme FPS drops now with latest version causes to have problems).

 

I just can't fly gazelle without moving the stick with those 1-2mm moves. I started now to work with the curves (need to cut FF power for that) and at saturation for 50% it starts to be acceptable to make a 10mm moves but still can flip over easily. Applying a 35 curve additional for that makes it nicer to do a small 2-3cm moves at center, but then I can't really do the corrections well when in transition moves.

 

That is what I see (and I very well know how much 1-2mm is, as artisan works with x.1mm limits) and it just was with the default that much. Just totally surprising as none other module has the same. And this gave me the reason to think that is the problem so many is suffering with Gazelle crashing on them so easily as even slight over input generates radical output.

 

And to fix things I needed to put radical axis curves changes to get it anywhere near more relaxed flight.

 

That's reason why I have extended stick so I get the more realistic cyclic moves I have custom to. But even when each aircraft modeled has different cyclic length and have own small differences, the Gazelle feels like it is extremely sensitive for slightest moves, but as already hinted and shown the videos in cockpit, it is nothing like that.

And I don't have any problems with any other module, or any other software etc, just with the Gazelle, will give just one conclusion, there is something wrong with Gazelle I/O.

 

As if in reality Gazelle would be like what I experience in simulation, no one would fly it in combat or any situation as cockpit shake would already throw you around.

 

 

-----

 

 

Just tested how far I need to go with saturation for cyclic and it is now 20 on Y, to get a same level of control as I have with UH-1H, Mi-8MTv2 or KA-50 with defaults. For collective I need 50 and for anti-torque pedals I need 40. And then no curves. And now I can fly it without problems.

[anasithera]

The problem with all of this you're saying is that there's nothing like this happening with anyone else. What you're describing sounds like some intense amplification of your inputs and it just makes absolutely no sense. People do find the controls too sensitive almost across the board, but nothing on the scale of this. You should be having an even easier time with it than I am. You SHOULD be able to make much more pronounced movements with the stick than I do, and do so even with less saturation and curvature on your axes.

 

However, I didn't really clue in that you were using a force feedback stick, and those are currently not something that Poly's worked with, so it could be an issue with force feedback sticks outside of the usual issues with them like how the stick-to-trimmer or Magnetic Trim works.

 

Your talk about saturation is also not making sense. How do you hold yourself straight with only 40% anti-torque? I pull up my controls reference with Rctrl+enter and it requires 50% right rudder just to keep the nose still in a hover. The controls reference seems to show absolute control position regardless of saturation setting (my full right twist is giving me about 70% on the rudder indicator) so that's how I can tell I'm giving it around half.

 

You shouldn't be able to twist the nose of your craft to the right with that sort of anti-torque curvature, and you certainly won't be able to fly very fast with only half of the collective, or with heavy load. I haven't given my collective any curve or saturation and it takes almost 60% to lift with full tanks and four HOT3 missiles. Granted, I think the only time I've used 100% was at altitude, because the rotor torquemeter tends to limit my slider to what I think is around 80% lest I break my turbine, so in this case I could be full of all sorts of shit.

 

I really don't mean to come off as rude in all of this skepticism but this is just not how the module works for anyone else I've talked to who has it, or myself. It is literally the opposite of my experience, which was that it was a big jump from the Huey, but with about 1/3 less sensitivity on cyclic and yaw it's almost placid. In my opinion the Gazelle is the easiest chopper to fly in the simulator.

 

Like that last person said, this sounds like something is flat-out broken. I might suggest a re-install of DCS, if you can stomach it, or else a re-install of the Gazelle itself.

 

If it persists after that I suggest a very detailed bug report which mentions your stick model, pedals, and all of that, and provides your controls .lua with the same settings as present in that video, which was, if I remember right, without any curve or saturation settings?

[FoxDelta]

i agree

 

i do also use logitechs extreme 3d stick.

and i have to agree FRI. these standard gazelle settings are ridicolous sensitive.

devs should change that, in my opinion, to provide a better user experience.

hardcore pilots may change it back for themselves

[Ramsay]

Have to agree, the default cyclic sensitivity seems unrealistic.

 

Cyclic inputs and trim changes are hardly visible in control indicator (RCTL + Enter), most people flying the Gazelle well appear to use reduced axis saturations (including the dev's), hence the lack of complaints.

 

Yes, I can just about manage the gazelle cyclic with a 100% saturation but after running a CTLD mission for 2 hrs, holding my wrist rigid while making fractional movements on a twist stick was painful.

 

With 50% saturation the cyclic is perhaps a little to easy than the real but far more comfortable and also makes the Gazelle a realistic training helicopter.

[Fri13]

The problem with all of this you're saying is that there's nothing like this happening with anyone else. What you're describing sounds like some intense amplification of your inputs and it just makes absolutely no sense. People do find the controls too sensitive almost across the board, but nothing on the scale of this. You should be having an even easier time with it than I am. You SHOULD be able to make much more pronounced movements with the stick than I do, and do so even with less saturation and curvature on your axes.

 

However, I didn't really clue in that you were using a force feedback stick, and those are currently not something that Poly's worked with, so it could be an issue with force feedback sticks outside of the usual issues with them like how the stick-to-trimmer or Magnetic Trim works.

 

Your talk about saturation is also not making sense. How do you hold yourself straight with only 40% anti-torque? I pull up my controls reference with Rctrl+enter and it requires 50% right rudder just to keep the nose still in a hover. The controls reference seems to show absolute control position regardless of saturation setting (my full right twist is giving me about 70% on the rudder indicator) so that's how I can tell I'm giving it around half.

 

You shouldn't be able to twist the nose of your craft to the right with that sort of anti-torque curvature, and you certainly won't be able to fly very fast with only half of the collective, or with heavy load. I haven't given my collective any curve or saturation and it takes almost 60% to lift with full tanks and four HOT3 missiles. Granted, I think the only time I've used 100% was at altitude, because the rotor torquemeter tends to limit my slider to what I think is around 80% lest I break my turbine, so in this case I could be full of all sorts of shit.

 

I really don't mean to come off as rude in all of this skepticism but this is just not how the module works for anyone else I've talked to who has it, or myself. It is literally the opposite of my experience, which was that it was a big jump from the Huey, but with about 1/3 less sensitivity on cyclic and yaw it's almost placid. In my opinion the Gazelle is the easiest chopper to fly in the simulator.

 

Like that last person said, this sounds like something is flat-out broken. I might suggest a re-install of DCS, if you can stomach it, or else a re-install of the Gazelle itself.

 

If it persists after that I suggest a very detailed bug report which mentions your stick model, pedals, and all of that, and provides your controls .lua with the same settings as present in that video, which was, if I remember right, without any curve or saturation settings?

Don't worry, i don't take it as negative, as you are trying to help after all ;-)

 

But i didn't beloved it myself either at first. Like that flight in video, i am amazed that i staid up in the air in first place! But i didn't have any real control for the chopper like almost at all. I was reading gauges and flying by those and look the string with corner of my eye, without really looking outside.

 

Now i have come down burning and flipping maybe by all possible way as i have searched the input values to match it.

 

I have validated files and re installed module after purging everything without change.

 

But i can just now change values for a moment to get it going better. But as there is no FF, I don't even have FF powered... It should change anything. But i just say that default settings are over sensitive. Like back in the days UH-1H had similar thing with mast pumping, it just happened. Now i have difficulties to cause it by purpose. And for some reasons it is very easy to fly with defaults. Black shark is still in own class but others work more like a real helicopters. (As close as possible).

[Fri13]

Have to agree, the default cyclic sensitivity seems unrealistic.

 

Cyclic inputs and trim changes are hardly visible in control indicator (RCTL + Enter), most people flying the Gazelle well appear to use reduced axis saturations (including the dev's), hence the lack of complaints.

 

Yes, I can just about manage the gazelle cyclic with a 100% saturation but after running a CTLD mission for 2 hrs, holding my wrist rigid while making fractional movements on a twist stick was painful.

 

With 50% saturation the cyclic is perhaps a little to easy than the real but far more comfortable and also makes the Gazelle a realistic training helicopter.

 

50% is still for me too sensitive, 20% being like more realistic, but then the cut from extreme movements is bad as if I start maneuver harder, it is impossible to recover at 10-15m altitude. At 30% it is better on extremes but starts changing the relaxed position again for small movements.

 

There just is something that doesn't work as should.

 

But once I find the good values, I just need to stick on those, as I search the comfortable zone where I can just fly thing with moving stick by that 3-5cm worth like with others.

 

With defaults it is just stressful to hold the joystick and use pedals as they are extremely sensitive.

[Ramsay]

But as there is no FF, I don't even have FF powered... It should change anything.

 

Having no FFB spring centring, makes it difficult to control, as you need to feel the applied pressure with each movement because the movements are so small.

 

To get a spring centre on my MS FFB2, I run simFFB after starting DCS.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Ramsay

[Slazi]

Try with a non ffb stick if you can, Fri. Jusy a cheap one of you have a spare. See if its a ffb issue.

[anasithera]

Well, the reason I say it might be something on your end is that they (Polychop) say things are fairly dialed in. And if they're going for realism, as they should be and have said they are, and the chopper CAN do this stuff, then they shouldn't change it and either we need better quality controls or we need to suck it up. They know better than us, most likely, what a Gazelle really acts like.

 

However, what you're talking about is almost incomparable to my experience. I've touched nothing with regard to collective, and only dropped my other controls to 70% of their maximum, and it's a lamb after that. I still have two thirds of my control deflection to work with, and I have a decent quality but still very low end stick.

 

Something is seriously wrong with your need to drop it to one fifth input. You're having to neuter your controls to 20% of their maximum to not crash. Something here just doesn't add up, objectively it's either pilot error and you aren't compensating for the twitchyness of the controls and expecting it to fly like a Huey, or else it's input problems as you said.

 

Since you seem to be asserting you're not throwing your stick around like mad and the whole rub is you want to, examining the controls themselves seems like the place to start.

 

I need more deflection on my controls to make things happen than you do according to what you said, with or without curves, and that should not be the case at all with your extension. Your small moves should be much smaller than mine and you should need a larger movement to equal my inputs. This says one of two things, either their module is not playing well with your type of stick in particular, for some obscure reason they'd need to test to figure out, or that your hardware or software are causing an issue.

 

I'd lean towards a very systematic attempt to use different controllers in different combinations to make sure there's not something else causing some weird conflict in all this, troubleshoot it all out. Are you using separate devices for collective/throttle and stick? Change things up a bit.

 

Try flying with a different stick, if you have the patience. Xtreme 3D Pro is pretty cheap at 30-40 bucks and though I can't vouch for modern ones, as mine is almost ten years old, mine is still running fine, and it makes a pretty good spare stick for anything you don't want to use a warthog or a difficult setup for, so it has some utility for arcadier stuff, or even for use as a dedicated Gazelle Viviane slew.

 

Pull up the controls reference while you fly and see if it's doing anything weird. My joystick sometimes decides to recenter the yaw a bit left of true center and I have to move the whole stick around for it to remember where it's really at. It's killed me once or twice, and it's a headache, but the thing is almost as old as my first PC build, so I'm not all that surprised.

 

You say you have other heli modules, is there anything you have to reset for those to work, too? Curves that are not standard 100 saturation/0 curvature? I think you've said no, but I want to make sure. If so, examine them and maybe there's a trend.

 

And of course in the end the module is new and it could just be broken as hell, I don't know! There's just something extra weird about this that makes no sense at all.

 

The issue I had with the Gazelle with 100/0 curves was just that it was bouncier and twitchier than the huey and the A-10 are for me, because with this stick both are pretty jumpy and take some work to handle. It was absolutely not flipping over at the slightest provocation, though I can see why trim would have that effect for you if you don't have a spring-centered stick, since the trim works like it does in this. It just liked to porpoise as I flew, and was hard to hover in because every twitch sent me off in that direction at 5-10kph.

 

You say you're twitching in a direction and it flips completely over and that's definitely not how it is for most people at all, even the ones that have problems with default control sensitivity. Even with default controls I had to MEAN it if I wanted the thing to flip over. though it was easy to heel it over in a good, steep bank.

 

Keep trying things while you have the patience to, though. Test everything you can on your end as thoroughly as possible, because if it's on your end you can fix it, if it's on their end you can only give them the bug report and hope they work it out. Which I still say you should do.

[Fri13]

Having no FFB spring centring, makes it difficult to control, as you need to feel the applied pressure with each movement because the movements are so small.

 

To get a spring centre on my MS FFB2, I run simFFB after starting DCS.

I use it too but FF is not implemented. I get no feedback what so ever. And why pull power plug to get relaxed stick so it is easier to handle than trying to fight with default motor hissing.

[IanHx2]

Here's my first attempt to go from cold start-up to flying.....:poster_oops:

[dimitriov]

When I think that I pilot it with a 40 cm extension, 80% saturation and curves at -25 (so far more sensitive than default ones) without having any problem...

 

I'd simply say that to talk about realism accurately, the best for you would be to pilot a real helicopter, because yes, a Gazelle is very, very, very sensitive, but it's still very easy to pilot as long as you don't try to over-correct the aircraft behavior.

 

So IMO, if you crash with a 35 cm extension and default curves, well, that's simply that you need a lot of training ;)

 

Nicolas

[borchi_2b]

@all:

 

I have read a lot about sensitivity and twitchines and a lot more about some strange flight behaviour.

Let me first state that none of us uses a saturation or curve anymore for a long time now. One of us had to when he was new to the project and that is ok.

I can tell you that no extension is needed and no saturation or anything else.

I fly the gazelle with a single warthog and my spring is still in it plus saitek rudders.

What is the most important, and nicolas is correct about it, do not overcompensate and if you do keep in mind that all laws of physics apply. Inertia is also there. A force can only be counter acted by a counterforce so you have to also counter the overcompensation.

I sometimes overcompensate too at 5 meters altitude at 200km/h when i do hard turns with 30° - 50° bank.

That is natural. You have to balance her.

 

What i recommended a pilot i flew in a multicrew session last week, cause he wanted to see for himself a turn without altitude loss, was a certain training course for the gazelle.

I myself practised about 10 flighthours pure take off , manual hover, landing.

After that i did take off, slow taxing, not faster then 50km/h most of the times slower and staying on the taxiway center all the time, hover and final landing. This was also a 8 - 10 hour pure flightpractise.

After that i felt comfortible enough to really start flying.

After a few hours of flying about 20+ i started basic manuvers like fast approach and a full stop to hover.

Ohh back then i only had a little curve on the rudders which we later on addapted cause the rudder speed was only a bit to fast according to the french gazelle pilots who tested her for us.

 

Today after approximately 150+ hours i can really fly her without thinking and musclememory kicks in the inputs most of the time. I can only recommend an intensiv training of the basics with this bird cause she behaves way different.

 

Over all i hope this little insight of how i approached that jumping gazelle in the beginning helps you or others.

Have a nice weekend flying.

 

Cheers

Sven

Edited August 28, 2016 by borchi_2b

[mnpostema]

Hi Sven,

 

Thank you very much!

I already know how to fly this little bird, but people like you keeps these community alive and flying ;-)

 

Cheers to you to mate! :-)

 

Greetings from Holland

 

Matthias

[Rogue Trooper]

@all:

 

I have read a lot about sensitivity and twitchines and a lot more about some strange flight behaviour.

Let me first state that none of us uses a saturation or curve anymore for a long time now. One of us had to when he was new to the project and that is ok.

I can tell you that no extension is needed and no saturation or anything else.

I fly the gazelle with a single warthog and my spring is still in it plus saitek rudders.

What is the most important, and nicolas is correct about it, do not overcompensate and if you do keep in mind that all laws of physics apply. Inertia is also there. A force can only be counter acted by a counterforce so you have to also counter the overcompensation.

I sometimes overcompensate too at 5 meters altitude at 200km/h when i do hard turns with 30° - 50° bank.

That is natural. You have to balance her.

 

What i recommended a pilot i flew in a multicrew session last week, cause he wanted to see for himself a turn without altitude loss, was a certain training course for the gazelle.

I myself practised about 10 flighthours pure take off , manual hover, landing.

After that i did take off, slow taxing, not faster then 50km/h most of the times slower and staying on the taxiway center all the time, hover and final landing. This was also a 8 - 10 hour pure flightpractise.

After that i felt comfortible enough to really start flying.

After a few hours of flying about 20+ i started basic manuvers like fast approach and a full stop to hover.

Ohh back then i only had a little curve on the rudders which we later on addapted cause the rudder speed was only a bit to fast according to the french gazelle pilots who tested her for us.

 

Today after approximately 150+ hours i can really fly her without thinking and musclememory kicks in the inputs most of the time. I can only recommend an intensiv training of the basics with this bird cause she behaves way different.

 

Over all i hope this little insight of how i approached that jumping gazelle in the beginning helps you or others.

Have a nice weekend flying.

 

Cheers

Sven

 

 

Agreed, I no longer use any curves or Saturation for the updated flight models in 1.5 stable and 2.0 alpha. I use a 10cm stick extension and all works well for me.

[mafuasu]

I fly with the X-55 without extension, curves and saturation.

The updated flymodel plus training training training... is the best :joystick:

I love her and it feels so wonderful to fly a light attack helilcopter.

 

Thanks Polychop for this great evolution :thumbup:

 

PS: did you know this?

 

Try it in Nevada at the California Racing Pattern. so much fun :pilotfly:

Edited August 30, 2016 by mafuasu

[Mt5_Roie]

Awesome stuff....so next time you guys are in a hurry to get to the target area, just grab a porsche and load some portable HOT3 in the trunk (which if I recall is in the front).

 

 

PS: did you know this?

 

Try it in Nevada at the California Racing Pattern. so much fun :pilotfly: