Can a Gazelle really do this?

[NeilWillis]

This module of DCS World is dumbass and look like a RC helicopter the more,but certainly not the real Gazelle.

Maybe a fix could be done,if the designers stop to think the players are ignorants.

see you next

 

I would suggest ignorance is bliss in this situation. If you fly it like an RC helicopter, way way beyond anything a real pilot would attempt, then what the hell do you expect but a helicopter that looks like it's RC?

 

Fly it within the reasonable real world parameters however, and you may not then encounter the "dumbass" aspects of a flight model that was never designed to be handled beyond it's real flight envelope.

 

Hardly surprising you get dumbass effects when you act, talk, react and look like a dumbass!

[flying rabbit]

Please show me a video about that (a track would be great too), I'd need it to fix if it really happens in game

I can only turn about 15° left or right above 90km/h with full pedal in straight flight and then the helicopter comes back to the forward flight, the max angle will decrease with speed.

What you're saying is a bit confusing me if you're above 90km/h.

I must admit I was only flying 140kph. I dont have the trackfile of this flight, but someone else was kind enough to supply one. Here is the video:

[WinterH]

DCS : Detractors vs White Knights

 

The most well functioning and the most popular battle in DCS World :D.

[PapaSmoke]

The problem with this whole argument is that nobody knows what happens to a Gazelle when you're in an OGE hover at 4000'amsl and you fully deflect the cyclic forward. I have a little flight test experience and I know what my response would be to seeing that on the test schedule!

The limits for aircraft operation are generally arrived at through a combination of engineering hypothesis and practical test, stopping either when the design targets are met (or exceeded by a sensible margin) or the Test Pilot has a brown-trouser moment.

It follows therefore, that even the most experienced RW TP in the world wouldn't be able to advise on the "outside loop in OGE hover" performance of the Gazelle because it is not something that the aircraft was ever designed, tested, trialled or constructed to achieve. Simulators are only as good as the data that is available. Case in point - I can very easily roll, loop and pirouette the 10tonne+ helo that I fly, in the most advanced simulator for its type in the world. I wouldn't dream of asking it to fly these manoeuvres with me and other crew on board! On the other hand, it doesn't perform some manoeuvres well that I know to be well within the real aircraft's capabilities.

But it doesn't matter - you're not flying a Gazelle - you're simulating flying one. And here there is an interesting paradox in the argument of those that demand complete realism outside the known flight envelope. If they are so committed to achieving the highest levels of accuracy and realism, it really shouldn't matter whether the aircraft does a forward roll in that situation or turns into a pumpkin. Somebody so committed to faithfully recreating the Gazelle wouldn't dream of an excursion that far out of the flight envelope. To do so would be... unrealistic.

[cromhunt]

I was french army pilot on Gazelle Sa 341 and commercial pilot on Gazelle Sa 342.

Maybe it's not sufficient to appréciate that?do you think?

Go ahead and continue on the wrong way to know what is the real flight.

On an other part stop to discuss about flight parameters and specific aérodynamics.

Only engineers can do that.

The problem is that the module is not representative of a Gazelle but a toy.

I understand that simmers need to play on legends and other myths.

Have a good game:)

[PapaSmoke]

I understand your position entirely, but I think you misunderstand me. I'm not claiming that the flight model is 100% accurate, I'm claiming that it is accurate enough for most people to enjoy, within the flight envelope. With your Gazelle experience, it sounds like you can't enjoy it - and I'm sorry to hear that, but it doesn't mean that the developers haven't done a good job of getting as close to what it feels like to fly the real thing as is possible with current PC tech.

[myHelljumper]

Gazelle was tested less than one month ago by some very experienced REAL SA-342M pilots. They said that the FM was OK but the SAS was not acting like it should. So please stop saying that the chopper FM is bugged unless you have more experience than these pilots.

[flying rabbit]

Gazelle was tested less than one month ago by some very experienced REAL SA-342M pilots. They said that the FM was OK but the SAS was not acting like it should. So please stop saying that the chopper FM is bugged unless you have more experience than these pilots.

How much experience do I need to be more experienced than "very experienced"?:music_whistling:

Such arguments are not very constructive. I think everyone who notices some strange behaviour has the right to bring it up on the forum. But some people may used inappropriate words to argue their point.

[Haukka81]

I was french army pilot on Gazelle Sa 341 and commercial pilot on Gazelle Sa 342.

 

Maybe it's not sufficient to appréciate that?do you think?

 

Go ahead and continue on the wrong way to know what is the real flight.

 

On an other part stop to discuss about flight parameters and specific aérodynamics.

 

Only engineers can do that.

 

The problem is that the module is not representative of a Gazelle but a toy.

 

I understand that simmers need to play on legends and other myths.

 

Have a good game:)

 

 

 

+1

 

Sad that this Forum is full of white knights that can't stand that someone says something about their favorite module.

 

And gazelle dev's are not open to critic, they act like little boys for now :(

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[unknown]

@cromhunt

Wow, you acting like a little child, judging by your posts in this thread and considering that english is not my first language, maybe i just don't understand you right. But in my opinion an adult would act different than you which makes your following statement not very believable

I was french army pilot on Gazelle Sa 341 and commercial pilot on Gazelle Sa 342

The developer stated several times that they will improve the FM based on the feedback they get from RL helicopter pilots among them RL active french Gazelle pilots. They also stated that they trust their feedback more than some assumptions made by watching youtube videos or "feelings" that there is something wrong. They never said the FM is perfect but the said it's good enough in most flight conditions and that they improve it to be as realistic as possible. We are here to support them by doing test and give them constructive feedback not by stomping with your feed and screaming like a little child.

 

@flying rabbit

There is nothing wrong with bringing up problems, but there is a difference in bringing them up constructive providing data and trying to figure out what is the RL behaviour of the Gazelle or just screaming this is all bullshit.... blah blah. I don't think the developer will listen much to such person, but in the end we all want the most realistic Gazelle we can achieve. So pointing out some strange behaviour is ok, let them cross check this by their RL pilot testers and patch it, but i guess this takes some more time than a couple of days.

 

Didn't they already say they have some FM changes ready which only wait to be released by ED?

[PapaSmoke]

+1

 

Sad that this Forum is full of white knights that can't stand that someone says something about their favorite module.

 

 

Which doesn't refute any point made by anybody so far on this topic. Well done.

And a module that I don't own is my favourite? Sure.

[myHelljumper]

How much experience do I need to be more experienced than "very experienced"?:music_whistling:

Such arguments are not very constructive. I think everyone who notices some strange behaviour has the right to bring it up on the forum. But some people may used inappropriate words to argue their point.

 

No problems with that, the problem is when the devs say that behavior is normal the people say the devs are not right. This is their job, give them credits and stop bashing them for not fixing what you think is a bug.

 

edit : The FM has it's flaws that are being resolved, no one say that it is perfect but stop the dev bashing, they know what they do, they work with professionals that work with the real SA-342, they have some exclusive footage as well as documentation that is not available on the internet.

Edited June 19, 2016 by myHelljumper

[Pikey]

This argument has all the qualities of a rapidly rotating Gazelle. It's not going anywhere fast.

 

There's some massive language barriers too, everyone take a step back and chill, you know if you were in a room it would all make more sense.

[myHelljumper]

This argument has all the qualities of a rapidly rotating Gazelle. It's not going anywhere fast.

 

There's some massive language barriers too, everyone take a step back and chill, you know if you were in a room it would all make more sense.

 

The argument is okay as long as there are some respect to the folks that are saying this is right, the folks that are saying this is wrong and mostly the devs.

[Pikey]

That's the thing, you called it an argument, in English thats not just a debate, its a debate thats heated or angry. But its unlikely people meant to bring anger, they meant to say, this is a good discussion. Exactly, its a good discussion, but people bring the heat and anger and its usually because they misunderstand because of the communication barrier in English.

 

Or in other words, everyone take a step back and chill, if you were in the room, there wouldnt be this, its just a forum thing. I didn't see disrespect, i saw bad wording.

 

The argument is okay as long as there are some respect to the folks that are saying this is right, the folks that are saying this is wrong and mostly the devs.

[myHelljumper]

You called it an argument first :D

[dimitriov]

Honestly, what devs expect from you is simple : report simply bugs.

 

So report bugs if you think you found some, but don't begin to insult everyone if the answer is that it's not a bug.

 

Contrarily to what you may think, a FM is very hard to code, it's not simply "I change a number". Modifying the rudder for example needs several weeks of work.

 

The Polychop team is IMO an example of communication, they try to answer your questions, to listen at you, even when (honestly) you try to speak about subjects that you simply don't know. Everyone knows that there are things to improve on the FM, and the next update, which will be launched when ED will have decided, will fix most of the current issues.

 

But if you want to be useful, and the devs to listen at you and continue to try to be as near as possible of the community, talk to them like humans, not your slaves.

 

AS developers, mission makers, marketing directors, modders, WE ARE NOT your slaves, we have in most cases a main work and a family, with a wife, children etc, and while some people come back from work and watch TV, or play DCS, us we read forums and spend nights on working on DCS.

 

So remain corrects now, there is no reason for you to speak on forums like you would never speak IRL !

 

Thank you.

 

Nicolas

Edited June 19, 2016 by dimitriov

[Pajama Pilot]

the gazelle is fun

[ame]

[/ame]

[NeilWillis]

Sanity at last. No one will ever castigate someone for a well reasoned, and unemotionally put argument for a change to a flight model.

 

Calling the research and development time that has been diligently made by a team of dedicated, and enthusiastic software engineers who are also keen flight simmers "dumbass" will never get anything but contempt.

 

It is also a little redundant to suggest that when the Gazelle is pushed well outside it's flight envelope, and things go a little crazy, there is a serious and deal breaking issue or bug.

 

While it might be good to have predictable results way beyond the normal operating environment, is it really such a big deal that the aircraft behaves badly when it's neck is being wrung?

 

It has never been about defending anything but reason and civility, which sadly, would never occur in a face to face debate, but on the internet, all sense and manners seem to just evaporate.

 

Polychop aren't dumbass, and don't deserve being lambasted for an area of the flight model no on can reasonably expect data for, let alone have real world pilots with any experience of.

 

Report things, yes, but do so in a detached and civilised manner, that's all.

[Fredo_69]

Hi everyone,

 

My first post on this forum...

I'm an experienced flight simmer (35 years of flightsimming) but fairly new to DCS. So far I've logged 63 hrs i DCS and 16 of those on the Huey witch I love to fly and has now pretty good mastery of.

 

I use Saitek X-55 Rhino stick & throttle together with CH Propedals and Track-IR.

(For the Gazelle I have been forced to put in deadzoone one (1) and curvature 19 on all axis to be able to handle it it. I use zero of both those settings for the Huey)

 

I'm waiting for the Bo-105 witch is a favourite of mine and I thought I should support the devs (!) by buing the Gazelle first (even though its the Bo-105 I'm waiting for).

 

Now I find that the Gazelle has some bugs in its FM. I see that this is a "hot potatoe" in this tread... But since it is a Beta early release that should not be so controversial, I think (hope)?

 

When flying straight forward sometimes the heli gets "stuck" to a certain attitude and you can then let go of the cyclic and toy around with pedals an collective - just spinning round along a track...

Seriously, thats not right?! No, of course not... So I expect that to be high on the devs list of things to fix.

 

Secondly the crash model doesn't work and you can end up both underwater or embedded in the ground without getting killed... And sometimes after a crash the wreck never stops spinning.

 

So I'm looking forward to next release and hopefully someday also the Bo-105.

 

Sincerely//Fredrik

[MAD-MM]

For my part I am really happy with the gazelle how this handles in game and I feel confident about the FM, for me was also at the start really twitchy think wow but after some training it fly like hell.

There more then 1 video that many people can control it very well, find this childish behaviour to through criticism all about the FM with only is have bugs and didn't post a video or something else what you have done before.

you can not even compare your PC input with a short joystick along with half meter long cyclic stick from the gazelle.

Seems the real gazelle pilots test the FM have no clue at all.

And when you looking the Red Bull Bo-105 you can due incredible stuff with helicopter my 5 cents.

[borchi_2b]

I like the video of the serbian gazelle doing a loop. Looks just like my loop in it.

 

I personally also do not think that a forum should be any place of insult. Showing facts ok. Sometimes that can look like a start of a fight.

As we have stated always, we try to bring you as close as possible.

If someone wants to fly a gazelle like the real deal, i do fear that you have to buy a gazelle in the end, causd this game, simulation will always stay a game or simulation with its limits.

 

We make the effort to work with real pilots exclusivly, cause this is the best source you can get next to flighmanual or any data from the manufacturers or even NASA.

I can only state that we make our homework always and try to solve the issues that are identified as such.

Some stuff might not be an issue but pilot error. Happened to me also, as we are all just humans.

 

I hope this topic is not heating up anymore cause what I can state to everyone, we are reading the postings, good and bad postings, and sometimes, I guess I can speak for every developer in the world, it is hard to read how inadequate people post and how close it sometimes gets to an insult, which is not an issue of this forum exclusivly.

Just think of the fact, that after such a long development time, we do not want to have wasted our time on the product and produce garbage.

 

Expect changes to the fm. I am eagerly waiting for the ED update and hope the changes are included.

I can state that she feels great and is worth the wait.

You will see different updates during the year and the fm might change in little details here and there again, but for now, what i can say about the new fm updates that are to come, she is very close to be finished.

 

So I hope you will all enjoy your freetime.

Cheers

 

P.s.: all the bashing happened to others before and made them quiet. I can understand the medal of communication from both sides and it is a thin line which can be broken from both side easily too. We should all look at that in my honest opinion.

Edited June 19, 2016 by borchi_2b

[Hook47]

I like the video of the serbian gazelle doing a loop. Looks just like my loop in it.

 

I personally also do not think that a forum should be any place of insult. Showing facts ok. Sometimes that can look like a start of a fight.

As we have stated always, we try to bring you as close as possible.

If someone wants to fly a gazelle like the real deal, i do fear that you have to buy a gazelle in the end, causd this game, simulation will always stay a game or simulation with its limits.

 

We make the effort to work with real pilots exclusivly, cause this is the best source you can get next to flighmanual or any data from the manufacturers or even NASA.

I can only state that we make our homework always and try to solve the issues that are identified as such.

Some stuff might not be an issue but pilot error. Happened to me also, as we are all just humans.

 

I hope this topic is not heating up anymore cause what I can state to everyone, we are reading the postings, good and bad postings, and sometimes, I guess I can speak for every developer in the world, it is hard to read how inadequate people post and how close it sometimes gets to an insult, which is not an issue of this forum exclusivly.

Just think of the fact, that after such a long development time, we do not want to have wasted our time on the product and produce garbage.

 

Expect changes to the fm. I am eagerly waiting for the ED update and hope the changes are included.

I can state that she feels great and is worth the wait.

You will see different updates during the year and the fm might change in little details here and there again, but for now, what i can say about the new fm updates that are to come, she is very close to be finished.

 

So I hope you will all enjoy your freetime.

Cheers

 

P.s.: all the bashing happened to others before and made them quiet. I can understand the medal of communication from both sides and it is a thin line which can be broken from both side easily too. We should all look at that in my honest opinion.

 

Trust me, I know, as everyone here should recognize, that Polychop doesn't make garbage. The Gazelle is an outstanding release and while the FM needs tweaks I for one am already a huge fan. Sorry this thread is getting messy, I think some of the things said in here could have been said differently or not at all, but Polychop expressing that they will continue to work to make the FM as good as possible is certainly good enough for me.

[Charly_Owl]

I hope you will make efforts to back the FM and the rest of your module with engineering rather than anecdotes and almost beer party impressions.

 

I don't know if it has ever crossed your mind... but in my experience, submitting feedback to professionals with a modicum of courtesy and respect usually gives good results and makes every party more receptive to each others' ideas.

 

Your remark, on the other hand, is rude, arrogant, unfunny and unprofessional. Unless your sole purpose was to make the developers fume and discredit your point, I really don't have a bloody clue about what you were trying to achieve with that comment. Being blunt can be effective; being mean-spirited never gets anything done. There is no cultural or language barrier that good old plain common sense cannot cross.

 

There are ways to make a point without antagonizing your interlocutor. I strongly suggest that you learn them.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Charly_Owl

[some1]

Please show me a video about that (a track would be great too), I'd need it to fix if it really happens in game

I can only turn about 15° left or right above 90km/h with full pedal in straight flight and then the helicopter comes back to the forward flight, the max angle will decrease with speed.

What you're saying is a bit confusing me if you're above 90km/h.

 

By pressing left and right pedal alternatingly (reach max deflection to one side, press the opposite pedal, reach max deflection to other side, repeat), you can induce spin along vertical axis at any speed. You can also rotate the chopper backwards at 100km/h happily fly without touching the cyclic.