Manual bombing - perfect pass

[Stretch]

After much practice I finally got a perfect pass in the manual bombing training mission. I made an instructional video in case anyone else needed a little help.

 

[ST0RM]

Nicely done. 79-80 mils low seems crazy, but with your results it appears to work. How about from high alts? Mid-teens?

[Stretch]

The DCS manual only gives profiles for a 20° and 30° dive. I found a copy of the real -34 for the F-5E on the 476th vFG page, which includes extensive delivery tables, but the results differ. That same 20° dive, 1500 ft release, 400-knot release speed works out to a 120-mil depression with the Mk. 82s. Until I can figure out why, I'm not sure I can get accurate profile data for higher altitude deliveries.

 

 

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[Ramsay]

Very nice.

 

In the video :

 

Target Alt + Release Height = 1200 + 1500 = 2700 ft MSL

 

but you released at 3200 ft was this to allow for altimeter lag or something found by experimentation ?

[Stretch]

Sigh, the target altitude is 1700, not 1200. I'll correct the video.

 

 

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[lmp]

Nice. The release alts from the manuals are indeed low and suicidal in a high threat scenario, but in a low threat environment, I find they get the bombs on target even if you don't exactly ace the maneuver.

 

I wish they'd given us more options though.

Edited August 4, 2016 by lmp

[Svend_Dellepude]

Nice. The release alts from the manuals are indeed low and suicidal in a high threat scenario, but in a low threat environment, I find they get the bombs on target even if you don't exactly ace the maneuver.

 

I wish they'd given us more options though.

 

I don't think those profiles were made for a high threat scenario. Most, if not all, the vehicles you are dropping bombs on in DCS were not invented when those tables were made. :)

[Bullitthead]

The biggest problem I seem to have is determining how far away from the target I should be before beginning the roll in. Too far away and my pitch is too low, too close and pitch is too high/dive is too steep. Anyone have suggestions on roll in/slant range distances to targets needed based upon desired dive angle or how to determine when the roll in should begin?

[IvanK]

The biggest problem I seem to have is determining how far away from the target I should be before beginning the roll in. Too far away and my pitch is too low, too close and pitch is too high/dive is too steep. Anyone have suggestions on roll in/slant range distances to targets needed based upon desired dive angle or how to determine when the roll in should begin?

 

Easy its straight Trigonometry for your dive angle. I practiced by calculating the required Base Distance out (Allowing for both Turn radius and Aim Of Distance). Then in the Editor set a line of ships at exactly that distance out ahead of me on the base leg. This then ensured getting the correct dive angle. Whilst you are practicing notice where the target sits ref the canopy rail. You can then use this cur to help out on random targets.

[lmp]

I don't think those profiles were made for a high threat scenario. Most, if not all, the vehicles you are dropping bombs on in DCS were not invented when those tables were made. :)

 

They clearly weren't. Any kind of proper air defenses, even Shilkas (which predate the F-5E by a decade) will rip you to shreds. And on top of that we don't have any profiles for CBUs and Snakeeyes.

[MBot]

The biggest problem I seem to have is determining how far away from the target I should be before beginning the roll in. Too far away and my pitch is too low, too close and pitch is too high/dive is too steep. Anyone have suggestions on roll in/slant range distances to targets needed based upon desired dive angle or how to determine when the roll in should begin?

 

Here is a little helper for a start. After some practice you get get a good feeling where you have to place the target to get the respective angle. The higher angles require some leaning, so try to remember the picture in reference to the lower window edge when leaning in.

 

I realy like the 15° deliveries. Not only is it very easy to set up the correct angle (place target on lower edge of mirror), it is also easy to manipulate your speed and provides ample time for mental error correction.

Edited August 5, 2016 by MBot

[Stretch]

OK for kicks and giggles I used the -34-1-1 for the F-5E and ran the same bombing problem as in the table in the DCS flight manual:

 

20° dive

1500 ft AGL release altitude

400 kts release speed

Mk. 82

 

I used the aircraft weight, QNH, wind, and temperature from the mission editor for the freefall bombs training mission. I calculated takeoff, climb, and cruise fuel burn for the flight to the target at a 5000 ft AGL ingress using the -1.

 

DCS flight manual says it's an 80 mil depression, yet using the -34-1-1 I get a 102-mil depression. Maybe I got one of my (many, many) calculations wrong?

[Hook47]

Excellent work sir, rep inbound!

[splash]

Hi, I watched your video and I'd like to ask you what do you mean with "hold 20º of pitch using AI". I'm sorry for my ignorance but I don't know what is "AI".

 

Thanks.

[Stretch]

Attitude indicator

[splash]

Thanks, i'll give it a try.

[Bogey Jammer]

With the bombs' aerodynamic drag data and weight used within DCS, it is possible to calculate drop tables for any conditions.

[Bullitthead]

Here is a little helper for a start. After some practice you get get a good feeling where you have to place the target to get the respective angle. The higher angles require some leaning, so try to remember the picture in reference to the lower window edge when leaning in.

 

I realy like the 15° deliveries. Not only is it very easy to set up the correct angle (place target on lower edge of mirror), it is also easy to manipulate your speed and provides ample time for mental error correction.

 

Thanks for that Mbot, very helpful.

[Bogey Jammer]

20° dive

1500 ft AGL release altitude

400 kts release speed

Mk. 82

…

DCS flight manual says it's an 80 mil depression, yet using the -34-1-1 I get a 102-mil depression. Maybe I got one of my (many, many) calculations wrong?

 

From scratch, I calculated a value of 104 mils of depression for the exact same conditions, without even taking in account the bomb's aero drag.

 

There is just something wrong with free fall physics in DCS :pain:

Edit: or the current pipper's depression amount is wrong.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Bogey Jammer

[sublime]

So guys is there a rough and ready rule.of thumb at least for loose ideas of settings on the mil counter under the sight in the F5 when regarding rockets and bombs and whether we.re doing dive bomger or angled attacks? (Vertical for say bombs rather than a lateral direction for say rockets or no air defense targets)

[viperdogsnake]

Did you consider the fragmentation footprint of a Mk82 at 1500 agl? Who cares about aaa if you frag yourself.

[Stretch]

The values in the video come directly from the DCS manual; presumably they wouldn't publish values that would result in you fragging yourself.

[viperdogsnake]

Frag envelope info

http://www.vipersinthestorm.com/html/weapons_bunker_-_page_1.html

 

You release in a dive at 1500ft, you are still descending while you pull away getting even closer, lets say 1200 agl. Someone has their numbers wrong or its not fully modeled. If you think Im wrong google Mk82 frag envelope.

 

More info.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=90805

 

 

If its really 9 seconds for frag to reach full horizontal distance then I urge you to time how long it takes you to get roughly a half mile away in that time. You might be suprised.

Edited August 20, 2016 by viperdogsnake

[Stretch]

The parameters in the DCS manual are 20° dive, 1500 AGL release altitude, 380-400kts release speed.

 

From the TO 1F-5E-34-1-1:

 

 

Safe escape altitude for a 20° dive at that speed range is 1300 feet. This makes the parameters in the DCS manual safe (not considering fuse timing, which is not modeled).

[viperdogsnake]

I stand corrected.