FC3 missiles early pursuit

[Airmage]

Hi, after playing recently in single player some low altitude missions, i noticed that the missiles cannot be use at low altitude because they imediatly plunge into ground/water after launch. Right after launch they go lead pursuit no matter the altitude. At some point in the past this was partially fixed i think but now it's back.

Another interesting thing ifor the R-27ER is that they change course with about 90deg away from the target, for no apparent reason. Is this how it should be?

[DarkFire]

This is probably due to a combination of things:

 

1. All the missiles in DCS, i.e. SAMs, AGMs and AAMs, use some form of proportional navigation to reach their targets. With the exception of cruise missiles like the Kh-65 they have no idea where the ground is.

 

2. Some aircraft use missile ejector racks that forcibly push a launching missile down and away from the parent aircraft. This is done to ensure clean separation between the missile and aircraft and usually happens before the missile motor ignites. The end effect of this is that some missiles will drop away before ignition rather than sliding forwards off the launch rail.

 

3. All the SARH missiles in the game (AIM-7, the Magic 550 and the R-27 series) currently suffer from the same problem: the effect of chaff on the missiles is currently modelled as being simply percentage based so dump enough chaff and the missile will be decoyed. The susceptibility of SARH missiles to chaff is too high at the moment, and demonstrably so. If you do a search for R-27ER and chaff somewhere there's a huge thread where this was discussed in great detail.

 

All that being said, ED apparently have someone reviewing and working on guidance for all missile types at the moment so I'm sure there will be improvements in the not too distant future.

[Reflected]

Is it just me or was there a major change in the last patch? Missiles were very ineffective, but now they are much worse. I was in an F15 online at 20k, fired 120a at a hot 29 from 16 then 10 miles. Then he went cold, another 120 from 5 miles, an aim 9 from 4 miles then another 120 from 3.5 miles. He had his burners on and was't maneuvering. The missiles didn't go anywhere near him. I'm just not buying this. Ridiculous. And please don't come with patronizing lessons.

[Johnny Dioxin]

I've always found the AAMs to be less than stellar in almost all situations.

 

I only fly ground-pounding missions, but whenever I had to fight off unwelcome visitors, even sure things went AWOL.

 

Yet if the AI fired an AAM at the same target - hit every time.

 

Even bulky transport helicopters in front of me were easily evading my heat seekers, without flares. Was the most frustrating thing in the Revanche campaign.

[Svend_Dellepude]

Is it just me or was there a major change in the last patch? Missiles were very ineffective, but now they are much worse. I was in an F15 online at 20k, fired 120a at a hot 29 from 16 then 10 miles. Then he went cold, another 120 from 5 miles, an aim 9 from 4 miles then another 120 from 3.5 miles. He had his burners on and was't maneuvering. The missiles didn't go anywhere near him. I'm just not buying this. Ridiculous. And please don't come with patronizing lessons.

 

Its a network thing that is being looked into.

[Reflected]

Its a network thing that is being looked into.

 

 

Thanks, that's good to know!

[Airmage]

My point exactly. Missiles seem much more buggy after last updates, and far more ineffective. And one thing i do not understand is, why a SARH missile is more sensitive to chaff than an ARH missile, since the radar provides the target illumination, and chaff is not affecting the radar, it's just some noise.

[Stuge]

ARH reacquires much more easily than SARH. Probably because of its automatic search function in a large area. I think SARH missiles can only reacquire in a very narrow cone and even then the launch aircraft needs to have a solid lock as well.

[Airmage]

Well then, here come 2 questions now:

 

1 - if one ARH has locked to a chaff, how can it reaquire the original target?

 

2 - how does a SARH target a chaff if the radar is continuously locking an enemy aircraft?

[Stuge]

1. It loses interest in chaff very quickly. On a hunch I'd say a normal time for an AMRAAM to reacquire would be 1-2 seconds, in this time the missile is not critically off course yet. Any longer break in lock and the missile may have veeres too far off course to be able to reach the target anymore ;) (depending on geometry of approach and target maneuvering of course)

 

2. Keep in mind that radar lock does not guarantee SARH missile guidance because the missile is homing on radar reflections from the target. Chaff is meant to screw up these reflections - thus the missile may not see the target even if it is illuminated by radar. Or, the radar itself can also lose lock due to chaff (but this doesn't happen in the game for now).

[vparez]

Well then, here come 2 questions now:

 

1 - if one ARH has locked to a chaff, how can it reaquire the original target?

 

2 - how does a SARH target a chaff if the radar is continuously locking an enemy aircraft?

 

1. ARH is continuously working to acquire a contact. a chaff that caught the attention of the seeker might at some point reflect less energy and the seeker looses it. then the seeker might have a chance to reacquire the real target.

 

2. SARH tracks a reflection of the main radar beam but chaff near the main target also cast reflection, the misile isnt specifically told which reflection to track. if the chaff cloud near the locked target casts off a powerful enough reflection the missile might go for it.

[Airmage]

Yes, good point on both.

[Cmptohocah]

For what I understand the principle of SARHs and ARHs tracking a target should be the same as with passive IR missiles with the difference that IRs are tracking infra-red signature (or a spot if you will) in the sky, where as radar guided ones are tracking object that is illuminated with waves of a different frequency. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

If this is true, that means that SARHs narrow 'search' area is the culprit for it's susceptibility to chaf, right?

[red_coreSix]

If this is true, that means that SARHs narrow 'search' area is the culprit for it's susceptibility to chaf, right?

 

The area illuminated will be much bigger for a SARH missile than a ARH. This is because the transmitter is further away, thus the radar cone grows. Plus, the radar on board the amraam has a small diameter so its cone would be smaller than the one from a fighter radar.

A missile won't really lock on to chaff, chaff just causes the targets RCS to grow rapidly when it's close to the target. This can screw with a missiles tracking, as most of them use some kind of centroid track. When it's not it just creates main or sidelobe clutter.

[Frostie]

I think the main difference between ARH and SARH against chaff is the generation gap, compared to a typical SARH missile an ARH such as AIM-120C is more in tune with the modern battlefield being as it is more recent tech. The fact that the AIM-120C5 has advanced algorithms to deal with chaff rejection compared to an AIM-120B should point to a reason why more modern missiles are less susceptible to chaff. It's all part of the ongoing battle of CM and CCM.

[JunMcKill]

Is it just me or was there a major change in the last patch? Missiles were very ineffective, but now they are much worse. I was in an F15 online at 20k, fired 120a at a hot 29 from 16 then 10 miles. Then he went cold, another 120 from 5 miles, an aim 9 from 4 miles then another 120 from 3.5 miles. He had his burners on and was't maneuvering. The missiles didn't go anywhere near him. I'm just not buying this. Ridiculous. And please don't come with patronizing lessons.

 

The missiles are inefective, because the proximity fuse is not working, you have to achieve a direct hit which is almost impossible for fighter planes.

[JunMcKill]

1. It loses interest in chaff very quickly. On a hunch I'd say a normal time for an AMRAAM to reacquire would be 1-2 seconds, in this time the missile is not critically off course yet. Any longer break in lock and the missile may have veeres too far off course to be able to reach the target anymore ;) (depending on geometry of approach and target maneuvering of course)

 

2. Keep in mind that radar lock does not guarantee SARH missile guidance because the missile is homing on radar reflections from the target. Chaff is meant to screw up these reflections - thus the missile may not see the target even if it is illuminated by radar. Or, the radar itself can also lose lock due to chaff (but this doesn't happen in the game for now).

 

All missile SARH and ARH relies in radar reflections, in the first case from the source aircraft radar, in the second case from his own radar, and all should be susceptible to chaff EM reflection

[JunMcKill]

The area illuminated will be much bigger for a SARH missile than a ARH. This is because the transmitter is further away, thus the radar cone grows. Plus, the radar on board the amraam has a small diameter so its cone would be smaller than the one from a fighter radar.

A missile won't really lock on to chaff, chaff just causes the targets RCS to grow rapidly when it's close to the target. This can screw with a missiles tracking, as most of them use some kind of centroid track. When it's not it just creates main or sidelobe clutter.

 

If you have a proper lock, the distance of the transmiter means nothing, the EM pulse have the speed of light, the fact is that SARH missiles are intended in real life to be more effective than the others, because they should kill in silence, while the ARH have to emit in some point. But that advantage is not simulated in ED, you now from the launch when someone shoot you a SARH missile

Edited August 8, 2016 by JunMcKill

[JunMcKill]

I think the main difference between ARH and SARH against chaff is the generation gap, compared to a typical SARH missile an ARH such as AIM-120C is more in tune with the modern battlefield being as it is more recent tech. The fact that the AIM-120C5 has advanced algorithms to deal with chaff rejection compared to an AIM-120B should point to a reason why more modern missiles are less susceptible to chaff. It's all part of the ongoing battle of CM and CCM.

 

you're right, as is the R-77M1 and the next gen missiles

[Svend_Dellepude]

If you have a proper lock, the distance of the transmiter means nothing...

 

That would very much depend on launching platform and missile to be launched.

 

... the EM pulse have the speed of light, the fact is that SARH missiles are intended in real life to be more effective than the others, because they should kill in silence, while the ARH have to emit in some point. But that advantage is not simulated in ED, you now from the launch when someone shoot you a SARH missile

 

STT is not really that quiet for the guy being locked up, assuming he has working RWR of course.

[red_coreSix]

If you have a proper lock, the distance of the transmiter means nothing, the EM pulse have the speed of light, the fact is that SARH missiles are intended in real life to be more effective than the others, because they should kill in silence, while the ARH have to emit in some point. But that advantage is not simulated in ED, you now from the launch when someone shoot you a SARH missile

 

In silence? Almost all SARH homing missiles use some kind of command guidance phase in flight to get into seeker range, these signals will be detected and will cause a missile launch warning. Far from silent if you ask me.

[GGTharos]

... which is exactly why every air force in the world is switching to ARH payloads, to make things more gentlemanly :)

 

If you have a proper lock, the distance of the transmiter means nothing, the EM pulse have the speed of light, the fact is that SARH missiles are intended in real life to be more effective than the others, because they should kill in silence, while the ARH have to emit in some point. But that advantage is not simulated in ED, you now from the launch when someone shoot you a SARH missile

[JunMcKill]

In silence? Almost all SARH homing missiles use some kind of command guidance phase in flight to get into seeker range, these signals will be detected and will cause a missile launch warning. Far from silent if you ask me.

 

Thats is not 100% real, is what the propaganda gave you online

[red_coreSix]

Thats is not 100% real, is what the propaganda gave you online

 

Prove me wrong.

[JunMcKill]

... which is exactly why every air force in the world is switching to ARH payloads, to make things more gentlemanly :)

 

IMHO, they are doing that because the capability of ARH missile to conitinue alone and the pilot can break contact and escape after the missile goes pitbul