First time on MP with the Mustang

[Mowgli]

and I got shoot down twice - I wasn't expecting too much just the feeling of flying the P-51D against human players and not A.I

 

I know - Practice Practice Practice...

 

The thing is, reading other posts related to the Mustang, that flying this wild horse as it is modeled right now is actually suicide. compared to the FW-190 & the BF-109 the Mustang is inferior when according to history statistics it is actually the opposite.

 

I really like flying this wild horse and I only see it as a challenge so I ask all the veterans here, with MP experience, share their knowledge how to fly against the German planes till ED give the Mustang it's accurate characteristics.

 

Thank you for sharing...:thumbup:

[Ala13_ManOWar]

The thing is, reading other posts related to the Mustang, that flying this wild horse as it is modeled right now is actually suicide. compared to the FW-190 & the BF-109 the Mustang is inferior when according to history statistics it is actually the opposite.

Well mate, I hardly doubt that flying P-51 is suicidal. Last time I got into ACG server I could easily reach and hit a couple reckless and careless 109 pilots, the kind that thinks they are invincible just because they ride a 109. Don't fall into that same mistake, P-51D is an awesome machine, just K model is the ultimate 109 and you shouldn't underestimate that. Stop thinking about "this has to be this or that" because History channel, this is reality, true to real life models, 109K was a beast, better than P-51, but your greatest handicap isn't that but the fact that you are joining later, when many people are widely experienced in a really great aircraft and that's true for both sides. Provided you were joining in a 109, even though it's a better machine you'd probably be saying the same about "too good P-51". As with the machine, you're underestimating pilots quality and experience, and they have a lot right now so you'll have a tough time catching up. But don't give up, as you say it's a matter of practice, practice, practice :thumbup:.

 

 

S!

[Brigg]

Yeah I wouldn't quite call it suicide, however you are relying on your opponent making a mistake a little more than flying the 109/190. When we get the new 50cal damage model and 72" manifold, then things will be more like what they should be. :pilotfly:

[Mowgli]

When we get the new 50cal damage model and 72" manifold, then things will be more like what they should be. :pilotfly:

 

Any estimate when it's gonna happen?

[Zimmerdylan]

About the only time you will shoot down a 109 in MP is when you find a pilot who doesn't know how to fly it. The P-51 lacks in so many ways when held up to the 109, and it's not too much better against the 190.

For me, the proof is in the pudding. If I fly the P-51 in MP, I get totally shut down by the German planes most of the time. Same with the AI fights. But if I'm in a 109, I can pretty much dominate most battles with the P-51. I do get shot down, but not nearly as much. The 190 is a bit more challenging to take down the P-51 in but you can clearly feel the difference in the agility between the German, and American planes. While true, the German planes are less forgiving of mistakes, their superiority over the Mustang more than makes up for that. If you lose energy in the P-51 in a dogfight, more often than not your going to get shot down just trying to recover it. When I find that I'm getting low in the German planes, recovery is so much easier.

The power of the P-51 is just undersold in DCS. I mean....this is a high altitude plane. But when you try to get it up to 20,000 feet, you have to baby it and struggle in many cases just to get it there. I have posted this issue on the forums and seen a lot about it and the advocates always say that you can get it there, but you have to pretty much baby the plane. But with the German planes, you can treat them any way you like and they'll go to 20,000 very easily.

The P-51 has become the only DCS plane that has become a continuing disappointment for me.

While you are in the servers, you may want to go on TS and ask people what they think. I find the feedback I get there is much more in line with what I actually see in the module. And in the defense of the Mustang, there are a lot of people who really hate to fly the German planes because of their lack of certain features and the difficulty in taking off and landing. But still....many people won't fight in the Mustang for the same reasons that you are posting about.

Many people will argue this point and the argument has pretty much been pounded into the pavement. But I completely agree with those who think that the P-51 has been undersold.

This does not mean that I am putting down ED, or that I do not enjoy the P-51. All it means is that I find the P-51 to be the least likeable of the 3 WWII planes.

[Brigg]

Personally I like all 3, and the early 109s are my favourite planes of ww2. However I do love the Pony to and to fly the P51 against the K4 and 190 in this state, does as you say "sell it short".

[Ala13_ManOWar]

The power of the P-51 is just undersold in DCS. I mean....this is a high altitude plane. But when you try to get it up to 20,000 feet, you have to baby it and struggle in many cases just to get it there. I have posted this issue on the forums and seen a lot about it and the advocates always say that you can get it there, but you have to pretty much baby the plane. But with the German planes, you can treat them any way you like and they'll go to 20,000 very easily.

I saw your complaint about that in another thread I think. You realize you're complaining about the supercharger threshold, isn't it? Something is going on in your engine management. You aren't the first one saying he couldn't get above 19-20K ft while you can reach more or less easily 38-40K ft in the Ponny. Check your procedures. Anyway, P-51 performs better at altitude almost matching 109, but at really high altitude 109 will be by far better again.

 

 

S!

[PiedDroit]

[...]Provided you were joining in a 109, even though it's a better machine you'd probably be saying the same about "too good P-51". As with the machine, you're underestimating pilots quality and experience, and they have a lot right now so you'll have a tough time catching up. But don't give up, as you say it's a matter of practice, practice, practice :thumbup:.

S!

Hehe, words of wisdom here :)

 

I started flying those birds recently and almost everytime I got owned, whatever I'm flying (I'd say i had better success with 109, then 51, last 190), I have some experience with IL2 but that doesn't help a lot.

 

It easy to get pissed, especially against veterans so you need to keep cool in order to benefit from those experiences.

 

Give yourself attainable objectives before thinking about air victory otherwise you'll feel you never progress.

For example, Level 1: Situational Awareness: manage to avoid being surprised by a bogey in your 6, Level 2: Defensive Maneuvers: try to figure out what works best to shake an opponent off your tail, Level 3: Energy, same as level 2 but with enough left to hope for a counter attack.

Etc...

 

I'm currently around level 1.5, except when I encounter someone as green as I am so I can score a victory :D

Edited October 2, 2016 by PiedDroit

[Zimmerdylan]

I saw your complaint about that in another thread I think. You realize you're complaining about the supercharger threshold, isn't it? Something is going on in your engine management. You aren't the first one saying he couldn't get above 19-20K ft while you can reach more or less easily 38-40K ft in the Ponny. Check your procedures. Anyway, P-51 performs better at altitude almost matching 109, but at really high altitude 109 will be by far better again.

 

 

S!

 

I personally have been beaten down pretty badly by the 109 at 22,000 ft. I see no difference in the P-51's performance at those altitudes. The only thing that I find about high altitude fighting in the P-51 is that when I bleed my energy, I can just dive to recover a lot of it back. But it still doesn't match the 109 at those altitudes.

As far as the climbing to 20,000. I know many people who have just given up on getting the plane there. I have had mixed success with it. I have tried to make videos of it but as we all know, the tracks aren't worth a dime. And Nvidia got rid of shadow play for some ridiculous reason. But I have tried to make side by side vids of the P-51 climbing to 20,000 ft. And in some cases, it would just easily make the climb up with no problems whatsoever. And then I would do it again and the plane would lose speed, power, and struggle to keep from stalling. In each case, I handled the plane exactly the same. I made everything I did as consistent as it could be.

My issue is that if the 109 and 190 are not as good as high alt. fighters and the P-51 is, how is it that I can climb either one of the two German planes to 20,000 without ever having to worry about it. I can dilly dally around all the way up, but the P-51 treats you like crap anywhere over 12,000 ft to 20,000 ft. Makes no sense.

I also have to look at the AI side of this. If the AI can take full advantage of all of it's resources and use the plane to it's fullest extent. Then this is pretty much solid evidence for the P-51 being underpowered and much less maneuverable than the 109, and 190. If I am fighting the 109 AI, there is no way that I can beat it. I have shot it down maybe 2 times out of the many I have tried (AI). I could chalk that up to my lousy piloting skills but it's hard to do that when I get into a 109 and endlessly shoot down P-51 AI's. If the P-51 is using it's max ability in AI, and I am not really good enough to get the max out of the 109 (and I am not because I'm not the computer) then the P-51 should at least give me a better fight than it does. In many cases it just slows down so slow that it's hard to stay with it long enough to shoot it down. It's similar with the 190.

Again....I'm happy that some of you have great success with the P-51. But to me, it's just a toy out of the 3 planes. It just doesn't perform well. Is this realistic? I honestly could not say because I have never flown any of these planes. According to everything I have ever seen and read, it's not at all realistic. But that's not anything I really care abut. I do not think that anything about any of this is particularly realistic as it is for all purposes, a game of sorts. I'm just stating that the P-51 is not all that great against the German planes. It is most very certainly the weakest of the three. Therefore I use it only in ground support roles.

Please guys, I'm not trying to be stubborn or argue over it. It's really not a very big deal. I just completely understand when people post that they're having performance issues with the P-51.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Zimmerdylan

[Solty]

You have a problem with completely realistic behaviour of the supercharger. P51D has good perfoance at low and high altitude, try to avoid that medium alt at which low blower gear is hindering the engine power.

 

Follow the 67'hg curve and look at the performance dip at around 10.000ft and high blower started to work at 14.000ft increasing performance again. It depends on atmospheric pressure when that second gear starts to work.

 

The problem is that IRL P51 since B version was using higher octane and power setting. At that point standard 109 was G6, then a new 109 model was developed few months after P51D, the G14, then the G10 and only after that K4.

 

So those stories you know are about higher power P51's and older 109 models.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Solty

[tintifaxl]

In the P-51 I always manually put the supercharger in high blower position @~13.000 ft.

[LeCuvier]

I fly the Bf-109 most of the time and I'm very successful against the P-51D AI. But it took me some time to get there. Now when I started to fight Mustangs in MP I got shot down several times. That's because these are real guys with a lot of experience and good tactics. They are smarter than the AI pilots. These personal skills make up for the slightly better Bf-109 performance all the time. In real life it was a bit similar. When the Bf-109K4 became available the allied airforces dominated the skies and they had a lot of well-trained pilots. The Luftwaffe had already lost most of its experienced pilots and the new pilots were sent into battle with very minimum training, vastly outnumbered and outskilled. Although they might have had a better plane, they had no chance to survive. So if you want to be successful with the P-51D you will need to acquire good tactics and a lot of experience. Don't fly all by yourself! Try to fly as a wingman to experienced pilots! And unlike the RL pilots you can have as many lives as you want to.

If you want to have success more easily just switch to the Bf-109. But you will still get shot down in MP until you have learned enough.

Personally I started with the FW-190D and had a hard time against the P-51D. Then I bought the P-51D and I didn't find it much better. Finally I bought the Bf-109K4 and I'm very happy with it. Fighting against AI, I can even shoot down the MIG-21 as long as I don't let it get into a position where it can successfully fire a missile at me.

[Captain Orso]

The only issues I can remember having with climbing was with the P-51D Campaign mission 10 or 11 in which you have to climb over the mountains up to about 30,000" (35,000"?), which when you run it as part of the campaign has a bug, which limits your engine power somehow. I ran the mission outside the campaign and the issue was gone, and I could climb up to 30,000" without much effort. This was in DCS World 1.2.xxx.

 

Since then I've climbed to over 20,000" many time, especially in MP, and always without issue. Below 10,000" I've found you can easily climb at about 3000" per minute. At about 10,000 to 12,000" you have to reduce climb rate to not above 2000" per minute and pay attention to MP, as while you are nearing the altitude at which the second stage of the supercharger will kick in MP will be dropping.

 

I always try to maintain at least 200 mph while climbing, so if my rate of climb is killing my speed to below 200 mph, I reduce my rate of climb to meet that. Remember, when you lose speed on a climb, it's almost impossible to regain it while climbing, so you have to pay close attention to not lose that speed. If you do, level out for a minute or so, to regain speed, and then resume your climb.

 

Once the second stage of the supercharger has kicked in, generally between 14,000 and 16, 000", you will still have to pay attention to speed and rate of climb, but have a little more power to play with.

 

!! You always have to pay attention to oil temperature while climbing, regardless of altitude, and nearly always manually control the oil radiator door !!

 

---

 

As far as fighting in the P-51D goes, Boom-n-Zoom™ is the only way to do it. If you are an American version of Günter Rall, from what I've seen,

(t4trouble and the rest of you )

you can try your luck with dog-fighting, but the 109 will always have a better turn rate than the 51, so you'd better have something else up your sleeve.

 

Check the video in this post: Boom-n-Zoom™ and attack with the 'Stang like that. I know the video is of a 109, but this is how you're supposed to fight with the P-51D. Use it's advantages (gaining and maintaining speed in dive), and avoid it's weaknesses (losing speed in turns).

 

You can scratch your left ear with your right hand behind your head...

Edited October 3, 2016 by Captain Orso

[Ala13_ManOWar]

To start with,

Please guys, I'm not trying to be stubborn or argue over it. It's really not a very big deal. I just completely understand when people post that they're having performance issues with the P-51.

Not at all mate, just trying to help so you can better enjoy the experience in DCS, Ok? :thumbup:

 

 

As far as the climbing to 20,000. I know many people who have just given up on getting the plane there. I have had mixed success with it. I have tried to make videos of it but as we all know, the tracks aren't worth a dime. And Nvidia got rid of shadow play for some ridiculous reason. But I have tried to make side by side vids of the P-51 climbing to 20,000 ft. And in some cases, it would just easily make the climb up with no problems whatsoever. And then I would do it again and the plane would lose speed, power, and struggle to keep from stalling. In each case, I handled the plane exactly the same. I made everything I did as consistent as it could be.

There's a little detail you have to watch out in advanced aircraft, as you climb atmospheric pressure decreases so given you setted proper maximum continuous parameters (you know, 27-46'') manifold pressure will also decrease with altitude, you have to watch it out all the time trying to keep engine within that best climbing parameter until (IIRC and anything has changed since my last attempt) supercharger changes to high blow @19000 ft. That changes due to weather, higher and lower QNH, so your throttle won't ever be at a same position during climbing in different days and supercharger won't change at those same 19.000 ft in your altimeter. You have to watch out also be running the engine in auto mixture as a full rich setting will prevent you to go any further than may be 10-15.000 ft. That supercharger threshold is critical and as Solty advices you are better avoiding flying, not to mention combat, in there until supercharger changes next stage. The back step to lower stage happens IIRC @14.000 ft (again depending on QNH) so once your supercharger is high blowing you will be fine provided you don't descent 14K again. Anyhow, the most important thing to remember is checking all the time manifold pressure within best setting, you'll reach a point where full throttle won't give you enough pressure to keep 27-46 setting, that's normal but keep an eye at it since supercharger stage change will suddenly raise manifold way beyond limits.

 

Also, while you climb you'll do better if you keep best climb speed all the time, watch your nose don't get too high and use trims. 180mph will be fine, no more but not less also, you won't climb faster out of best climb speed no matter your nose attitude. Be careful also as flying high altitudes tricks you about nose attitude, horizon is really faint there (as it is IRL), watch your instruments instead.

 

 

 

My issue is that if the 109 and 190 are not as good as high alt. fighters and the P-51 is, how is it that I can climb either one of the two German planes to 20,000 without ever having to worry about it. I can dilly dally around all the way up, but the P-51 treats you like crap anywhere over 12,000 ft to 20,000 ft. Makes no sense.

It just doesn't perform well. Is this realistic?

You're mistaking concepts here mate. 190 had problems in altitude, true, but that's regarding A models, you're fighting here a D9 made on purpose to combat at altitude. 109 wasn't also the best fighter at altitude depending on dates and theatre (so opponents), but funnily enough you're fighting here the ultimate 109, K4, a beast made again on the only purpose of fighting at really high altitudes, with a maximum speed reached at ~7300m IIRC, around 720Km/H. You think really those are bad aircraft? I think you're mistaken your strategy based on wrong ideas.

 

Also as I explained you upwards, P-51 has a certain engine management (not that much, very few indeed compared to other aircraft) that you have to watch in your climb. Of course you can climb without further notice in 109 and 190, they featured Komandogërat, an evil machine made to ease German pilots life (but also to send children into combat without experience…) so they hadn't to manage the engine further than throttle. That's a great advantage and makes a difference in combat, but only if you don't have a proper engine management technique and knowledge in the P-51, if you have it you can do the very same than 109, in certain details even you can have an advantage as you can control every parameter of your engine if you want to do so while they can't.

 

 

As I told you in previous posts, this is real life, this is a simulator not a game any more, believe me you have to know how a real aircraft works and how they are best flown and managed, but above all these aircraft are modelled to the best data out there so they match the real thing as we haven't seen before. You seem to mistake dates, aircraft models and you're mixing different outdated and out of context mottos from old books and History Channel hysterical documentaries. Do not try to follow those things, those are really bad advices in you want to survive in a "real online world" where conditions are very different from those in WWII, here you mostly fight 1vs1, when not outnumbered, and your opponent is usually very experienced. There's anything wrong in P-51 performance nor it's in 190/109, they all perform nearly perfect to data sources, but this is RL and you have to learn how to manage it, you have to know the machine you're flying in as the one against, no tricks, no cheats, just plain RL and your skills. The only way, practice and trying to learn every minute you're there.

 

 

 

The problem is that IRL P51 since B version was using higher octane and power setting. At that point standard 109 was G6, then a new 109 model was developed few months after P51D, the G14, then the G10 and only after that K4.

Remember G10 was released later than K4 my friend .

 

 

S!

Edited October 3, 2016 by Ala13_ManOWar

[sniperwolfpk5]

I am enjoying this thread. I don't have any ww2 plane. But really good explanation by veterans. Thanks you Ala 13, captain and others for in depth details

[qqQ]

I also have to look at the AI side of this.

 

Forget about the AI. It uses a different flight and systems modelling (SFM), thus it is not comparable at all.

Edited October 3, 2016 by qqQ

[Integrals]

If it is any consolation I've been flying the 51 in MP 5-15 hours per week since June and I am only just now starting to understand how to not get killed by 109s. Killing them is still completely a matter of luck for me though.

 

My only advice is this:

 

Start higher than them.

Stay faster then them.

As soon as you feel they are getting the advantage trade your altitude for speed and disengage.

 

Being aggressive in the 51 without coordinating with a wing man will get you killed quite quickly as the K4 holds most of the advantages in the type of combat that currently happens in DCS WW2 MP.

 

Practice and, almost as important, patience are extremely important. It pays off though, when I score kills on K4s it is very satisfying. The flip side of this is that if you switch over to the K4 you will find dog fighting extremely easy and you will almost instantly understand why you were getting shot down in the 51 so much.

[Eclipse]

Good thread. I am also wondering when the updated weapon damage model, MP, and any other P-51 updates might be coming. Anyone have any idea?

 

I'm getting the non-compete flight and maneuvering down pretty well, and my maneuvering and gunnery against the AI is coming along some. I'm feeling ready to start learning in multi-player, now, so this is very relevant to me!

[Pandacat]

The only issues I can remember having with climbing was with the P-51D Campaign mission 10 or 11 in which you have to climb over the mountains up to about 30,000" (35,000"?),

 

A mountain 30k feet tall? I don't think such mountain exists on this earth. Mount Everest is only 25k. Caucasian range is no way near that.

[horseback]

A mountain 30k feet tall? I don't think such mountain exists on this earth. Mount Everest is only 25k. Caucasian range is no way near that.

On the other hand, if his notation is correct, he's referring to a mountain 30,000 inches, or approximately 2500' (feet), or about 760m. The only place I've been where people call dirt piled only 2500 feet high a mountain was central Texas but that was only because people in Florida can't even conceive of anything that high.

 

cheers

 

horseback

[Captain Orso]

A mountain 30k feet tall? I don't think such mountain exists on this earth. Mount Everest is only 25k. Caucasian range is no way near that.

 

Mount Everest is 25,000 kilometers tall?!?

 

 

On the other hand, if his notation is correct, he's referring to a mountain 30,000 inches, or approximately 2500' (feet), or about 760m. The only place I've been where people call dirt piled only 2500 feet high a mountain was central Texas but that was only because people in Florida can't even conceive of anything that high.

 

cheers

 

horseback

 

. . . . . . . . .

 

... wasn't it obvious enough that I was talking about pixels..FEET, I mean feet ..

 

 

 

 

Anyway, the mountain isn't that high, the gates you have to fly through, are :thumbup:

[DarkRaiderss]

K is an abbreviation in the US that stands for thousand. So 25k would be 25 thousand.

Edited October 25, 2016 by DarkRaiderss

[Gnabbla]

It's the same here in germany.

 

Kilo- Gramm/Meters....

[Captain Orso]

:megalol::megalol::megalol:

 

I think this is how that one Mars lander was lost :D

Edited October 26, 2016 by Captain Orso

[DefaultFace]

What? Mountains at 25 Kelvin? Somethings gone wrong here! :lol: