Damage model

[cypc]

I'm sorry DEADBEEF but if you are refering to the 2 vikhr you shot at a mirage yesterday evening (around 20h25 server time), they both missed, I just checked the track.

 

If all fighters would have a rather similar damage-endurance we would not have this discussion.

 

Agree, unfortunately FC3 planes have a simplified damage model, making them more fragile than other modules.

 

the ones pro the current DM are usually Mirage Pilots, the ones against it are non-mirage pilots

 

So far I've only seen FC3 pilots complaining about mirage's DM, because the mirage is the first fully modeled planed in DCS that can compete with F-15/Su-27, but it's FC3 that is not realistic, not the mirage. The arrival of the Viggen, F-14 and F-18 should settle that for good.

 

In reality an F-15 can land with a wing missing, now try to do so in DCS ...

 

Out of curiosity I made some quick stats about missile hits. This comes from our last 3 run on The Kaukasus Offensive.

Edited November 15, 2016 by cypc
typo

[myHelljumper]

For me the F-15/Su-27 are too fragile, that is the main problem, and maybe the mirage is a tad too strong. From all the messages here, maybe zeus should take a look at it so we can be sure the 2000 is on par with other DCS level modules.

[ZHeN]

I'm sorry DEADBEEF but if you are refering to the 2 vikhr you shot at a mirage yesterday evening (around 20h25 server time), they both missed, I just checked the track.

I saw a server message at the right top corner of screen ... Deadbeef has hit Rex with Vikhr ...

 

btw, I can take up to three Igla hits and still be combat effective ...

[zerO_crash]

People can never be happy... Mirage is under development, are we to start mentioning everything that is not in and should be? Cause once they redo damage modelling, there will be complaints about something else.

 

If it`s bothering you too much with damage model, then remove mirage altogether from the server until it get`s released. It`s that simple. I`m sure they are hard at work, and there are many systems that need equal attention, damage modelling is not the only one.

 

Seems like it would be better if no module would be released in development state, cause so far this community (not everyone, but many) show total lack of understanding for "WHY" it is like it is currently.

[microvax]

People can never be happy... Mirage is under development, are we to start mentioning everything that is not in and should be? Cause once they redo damage modelling, there will be complaints about something else.

 

If it`s bothering you too much with damage model, then remove mirage altogether from the server until it get`s released. It`s that simple. I`m sure they are hard at work, and there are many systems that need equal attention, damage modelling is not the only one.

 

Seems like it would be better if no module would be released in development state, cause so far this community (not everyone, but many) show total lack of understanding for "WHY" it is like it is currently.

 

agreed.

[red_coreSix]

The lack of understanding is because the mirage, with its broken damage model, is released into the normal stable DCS. If they want to go the route of "we have higher priorities than the damage model" than don't put it into a stable release where people can exploit this and make the mirage something it isn't...

 

And the point about FC3 planes being to fragile is utterly ridiculous, I've certainly landed with one wing in the F-15 and Su-27 but if you tell me that a MRM will not destroy a Mirage/F-15/Su-27 99% of the time with a direct hit, you have no clue...

[myHelljumper]

BTW if you want zeus to look at it, maybe post it the the bug section ?

[zerO_crash]

The lack of understanding is because the mirage, with its broken damage model, is released into the normal stable DCS. If they want to go the route of "we have higher priorities than the damage model" than don't put it into a stable release where people can exploit this and make the mirage something it isn't...

 

What are you actually complaining about? It`s a server mission setting whether the mirage is there or not. You should be happy that they made it available to us on before hand... If you however don`t like it, then don`t join servers that have it?! Also, let me remind you once more, THIS IS A SIM, what is this "exploit" you are talking about? Don`t point at balance, as is inferred from your wording.

 

No one forces you to join servers with M2k, is there really a problem? Obviously only with you, as if others had it (such as server admins) they would remove it... Catch the drift?

 

Also, I never said "We have higher priorities than the damage model", just so we are clear. I said that everything they do is according to a schedule, meaning that they won`t divert from their plan just because someone wants to, unless critical (like causing crashes etc...). This is how they do it, as has been proved by their doing. That`s why.

Edited November 15, 2016 by zerO_crash

[0xDEADBEEF]

I'm sorry DEADBEEF but if you are refering to the 2 vikhr you shot at a mirage yesterday evening (around 20h25 server time), they both missed, I just checked the track.

 

I have explicitely pointed out that this incident is not the reason why I am posting, but the discussion that has resulted from it, which ended in pretty much what we see in this thread. Apart from that, I have the hit on video and I have the hit in the logs directly from the server. We all know that tracks can be inaccurate. But again, hit or not is not the point, point is the kind of discussion that evolves and is unneccesary.

 

People can never be happy... Mirage is under development, are we to start mentioning everything that is not in and should be? Cause once they redo damage modelling, there will be complaints about something else.

 

So you say we should not provide feedback at all? Sounds very constructive.

 

If it`s bothering you too much with damage model, then remove mirage altogether from the server until it get`s released.

 

Rhetoric tools like this sentence are going to bring every discussion forward, keep going, it is exactly what this thread needs! :thumbup:

 

That said, I have a lot of understanding that developing a module of this complexity is no task of few months and that there have to be priorities. However, splitting a community in half may be a fair reason to adjust priorities (not saying they should be looking at the DM right now, but sooner than later. Razbam has done a marvelous job so far!). Of course there will be people complaining about changes, they always do.

[0xDEADBEEF]

What are you actually complaining about? It`s a server mission setting whether the mirage is there or not. You should be happy that they made it available to us on before hand... If you however don`t like it, then don`t join servers that have it?! Also, let me remind you once more, THIS IS A SIM, what is this "exploit" you are talking about? Don`t point at balance, as is inferred from your wording.

 

No one forces you to join servers with M2k, is there really a problem? Obviously only with you, as if others had it (such as server admins) they would remove it... Catch the drift?

 

Also, I never said "We have higher priorities than the damage model", just so we are clear. I said that everything they do is according to a schedule, meaning that they won`t divert from their plan just because someone wants to, unless critical (like causing crashes etc...). This is how they do it, as has been proved by their doing. That`s why.

 

I fail to understand the point of your posts. Sounds to me like you are trying to suppress feedback by labeling them as pointless complaints. I also really dislike the rhetoric tools you are using, sentences like "is there really a problem? Obviously only with you" have no place at all in any kind of constructive discussion - did you even realize there were more than one persons in this thread actually agreeing on the DM needing work?

[il_corleone]

I was hit pleny of times with R60, my plane needed to do RTB, 70% of the times I lost the radar and in the other 30% my navigation systems and engine was damaged.

 

R60 has a very small warhead and I understand that weapons like this should not Rip-off an aircraft that also has been built with a Delta that makes it even more stronger to rip apart.

 

It needs fixing? I think yes, the example from Deadbeef can also happen in real life, but first FC3.

Edited November 15, 2016 by il_corleone

[zerO_crash]

I fail to understand the point of your posts. Sounds to me like you are trying to suppress feedback by labeling them as pointless complaints. I also really dislike the rhetoric tools you are using, sentences like "is there really a problem? Obviously only with you" have no place at all in any kind of constructive discussion - did you even realize there were more than one persons in this thread actually agreeing on the DM needing work?

 

Seems you are missing the point, I am not trying to suppress anything at all. Do you really think that RAZBAM doesn`t know about the current damage model? Do you really think that whining about it is going to speed it up? Do you really justify your "constructive" discussion on an unfinished module that`s in a beta state?

 

Keep on arguing, I don`t mind, DM sure needs work, but I wonder how long you will go on until you realize that their plan is more important to them than what you want fixed immediately... And yes, what you call "rhetoric" tools, I call for common sense and a little bit of understanding. No one is talking about splitting the community, it`s only a matter of accepting things as they are right now, and allowing time for RAZBAM to get along with their things.

 

(oh are we a split community because some only fly WWII and others only modern? Maybe the community got split when F-5 and MiG21 only servers got hosted?! funny thinking... Let`s not make anything outside of "modern" rubric to avoid people enjoying what they like, smart... No wait, I know, the community got split when some servers introduced 80`s scenario and removed R-27E`s and AIM120?! No? :megalol: )

 

Removing mirage will split no one, and most people, fly Single, because of more realistic scenarios (such as 99% of FC pilots flying on Afterburner 100% of the time, uhm yeah, realistic... I fly as if I was billed for it, or at least a real pilot, others make a game out of it), and that can be seen from how many people are on the servers. Certainly far more people than what there are on servers throughout a day.

 

Seriously now, this sim has existed long and will continue to exist, last thing you have to worry about. Not sure if you were here when we had LOMAC or pre-DCS world, but we were smaller. And it took longer time for fixes, so equip yourself with some patience now, it helps the sore wounds...

Edited November 15, 2016 by zerO_crash

[0xDEADBEEF]

Seems you are missing the point, I am not trying to suppress anything at all. Do you really think that RAZBAM doesn`t know about the current damage model? Do you really think that whining about it is going to speed it up? Do you really justify your "constructive" discussion on an unfinished module that`s in a beta state?

 

Keep on arguing, I don`t mind, DM sure needs work, but I wonder how long you will go on until you realize that their plan is more important to them than what you want fixed immediately... And yes, what you call "rhetoric" tools, I call for common sense and a little bit of understanding. No one is talking about splitting the community, it`s only a matter of accepting things as they are right now, and allowing time for RAZBAM to get along with their things.

 

(oh are we a split community because some only fly WWII and others only modern? Maybe the community got split when F-5 and MiG21 only servers got hosted?! funny thinking... Let`s not make anything outside of "modern" rubric to avoid people enjoying what they like, smart... :megalol: )

 

Seriously now, this sim has existed long and will continue to exist, last thing you have to worry about. Not sure if you were here when we had LOMAC or pre-DCS world, but we were smaller.

 

Yes, I do miss your point, and your post did not help at all. Calling people pointless whiners and your rhetoric tools "common sense" (seriously?) are not bringing along any kind of point, and when did I ever not allow Razbam their time? The split happens between people who think the DM is fine and people who think it is seriously wrong, bringing in ww2 fighters and 21vsf5 servers is not illustrating a point either my friend, not at all.

 

I am not interested in that kind of discussion, thank you! I appreciate respectful discussions. I also think I spent sufficient amount of effort illustrating my point, see you on a server :pilotfly:

[razo+r]

So i just tested with my friend, and 3 times out of 3 times, the aim 120 ripped my fin of and i was unable to fly...

[TomCatMucDe]

for the sake of fairness, here is pics on a server today with an F15 with burning wings and continue to fighting as nothing has happened. This is not to deny the rework needed on the DM of the M2000. Excuse the Oculus screenshot quality

[zerO_crash]

Yes, I do miss your point, and your post did not help at all. Calling people pointless whiners and your rhetoric tools "common sense" (seriously?) are not bringing along any kind of point, and when did I ever not allow Razbam their time? The split happens between people who think the DM is fine and people who think it is seriously wrong, bringing in ww2 fighters and 21vsf5 servers is not illustrating a point either my friend, not at all.

 

I am not interested in that kind of discussion, thank you! I appreciate respectful discussions. I also think I spent sufficient amount of effort illustrating my point, see you on a server :pilotfly:

 

Well, it`s written quite clear, give them time. No one here argues against M2k damage model being wrong atm, but writing 9 pages on this is not going to make them improve it before their schedule, takes time. Cheers

[0xDEADBEEF]

Well, it`s written quite clear, give them time. No one here argues against M2k damage model being wrong atm, but writing 9 pages on this is not going to make them improve it before their schedule, takes time. Cheers

 

Why don't you write it like that from the start? on eyelevel, no insults, no accusations, no unnecessary rhetoric tools but straight to the point, I like that much better! :thumbup:

[red_coreSix]

Well, it`s written quite clear, give them time. No one here argues against M2k damage model being wrong atm, but writing 9 pages on this is not going to make them improve it before their schedule, takes time. Cheers

 

Do we know they are working on it? No

Have they said a word about it in the last months? No

 

My problem is that RAZBAM seems to be completely ignoring this issue, again, multiple threads have been made almost a year back now and they received little to no attention whatsoever. Just like this one after, like you said, nine pages.

 

I just want an official statement that this is acknowledged and being worked on...

[zerO_crash]

Why don't you write it like that from the start? on eyelevel, no insults, no accusations, no unnecessary rhetoric tools but straight to the point, I like that much better! :thumbup:

 

No intention of being perceived as insulting, sorry if it came forth like that. ;)

[zerO_crash]

Do we know they are working on it? No

Have they said a word about it in the last months? No

 

My problem is that RAZBAM seems to be completely ignoring this issue, again, multiple threads have been made almost a year back now and they received little to no attention whatsoever. Just like this one after, like you said, nine pages.

 

I just want an official statement that this is acknowledged and being worked on...

 

Well, I`m sure they know, you can be pretty confident that they read their forums quite often. If you report something to Belsimtek eg. you won`t get much confirmation either. Can`t blame them though...

[microvax]

How about lets simply wait for the reworked DM which is going to hit with either the ED spit or 2.5. Afaik the ED spit ?

 

Maybee Razbam is exactly doing that but doesnt want to tie themselves to "we will rework with new DM" ?

 

I dunno pretty speculative. Will test in no lag, no maneuvering enviroment what kind of damge which misslez do. I have a feeling something with MP protocoll and maneuvering messes it up.

 

But yes there is something fishy. I do not argue with that. I am just not even sure if its a basic DCS issue or a Mirage DM issue. Or both.

[Weltensegler]

How about lets simply wait for the reworked DM which is going to hit with either the ED spit or 2.5. Afaik the ED spit ?

 

Maybee Razbam is exactly doing that but doesnt want to tie themselves to "we will rework with new DM" ?

 

I dunno pretty speculative. Will test in no lag, no maneuvering enviroment what kind of damge which misslez do. I have a feeling something with MP protocoll and maneuvering messes it up.

 

But yes there is something fishy. I do not argue with that. I am just not even sure if its a basic DCS issue or a Mirage DM issue. Or both.

 

Both is often a safe bet :)

Before I cry over hundreds of mirage kills that took 3 missiles....last night I started learning the mirage myself also to understand why I get team killed every day by them.

While flying straight in the editor and playing with the radar modes I got hit in the face with 4 REs.

After 3 I could still manouver as if the plane was new. The 4th did finaly make it difficult to land. Perfect aircraft to white weasel or drain air defences :)

 

Besides that I'm impressed, its a really fun plane!

[OldE24]

awsome it needed some nerfing, now we just need them to rework F-15 Hydraulics.

Edited November 30, 2016 by OldE24

[jojo]

There is something very strange. The MP M-2000 capacity to take hits doesn't seem to reflect single player experience. In SP a head on hit by AIM-120 or R-27ER and the plane is shattered to pieces.

[Frostie]

There is something very strange. The MP M-2000 capacity to take hits doesn't seem to reflect single player experience. In SP a head on hit by AIM-120 or R-27ER and the plane is shattered to pieces.

I can send you a mission which drops a bomb close to the runway spawn point, all aircraft get destroyed or become unflyable except Mirage an MiG-29.