Grudge Match Series- Round 3: Mig 21 Vs F-5 & AJS-37 Viggen!

[Vincent90]

That Fishbed livery looks awesome btw, is it a public livery?

[FLANKERATOR]

Not sure, its BadHabits...

 

we're over 800 peeps on Twitch....Come join us guys....Fishbed is kicking a$$....

[QuiGon]

Interesting match. The red guys are by far the better pilots and are kicking ass, because of their superior tactic and flying.

The Viggen's RB-04s converging on the same target were unfortunate. :D

 

There are a lot of retards in the twitch chat though, but I guess that's business as usual. A lot of them don't seem to understand, that the Viggen is a striker in the first place, and not a A-A fighter...

Also, Hooks rapid view switching was a bit too much and despite the rapid switching he missed a lot of the action. Longer, steady camera shots would have been better IMHO :)

Edited December 10, 2016 by QuiGon

[FLANKERATOR]

Interesting match. The red guys are by far the better pilots and are kicking ass, because of their superior tactic and flying.

The Viggen's RB-04s converging on the same target were unfortunate. :D

 

There are a lot of retards in the twitch chat though, but I guess that's business as usual. A lot of them don't seem to understand, that the Viggen is a striker in the first place, and not a A-A fighter...

 

True :)

[QuiGon]

Missing that Viggen rocket run in the end was pretty frustrating :/

 

Anyways, nice stream :)

Edited December 10, 2016 by QuiGon

[Hans_Dampf]

is there a way to rewatch the match?

[fixen]

I think a GCI is needed for both teams to better coordinate.

[FLANKERATOR]

is there a way to rewatch the match?

 

Yes, replay will be uploaded to Hooks YT channel.

 

I think a GCI is needed for both teams to better coordinate.

 

Very much considered for R4.

[surstromming]

Always fun to watch these fights :)

[BadHabit]

That Fishbed livery looks awesome btw, is it a public livery?

 

Hey thanks! The livery will go public on User Files of ED site soon.

[Teldja]

Once the stream was finally up and stable, I enjoyed watching it. :D

Team Fishbed was impressive and demonstrated both their flying skills and smart strategy !

 

The Viggen is gorgeous !

[Hook47]

Appreciate those who tuned in and congratulations to Team Fishbed! Was absultelty awesome to see the Viggen in the action as well

 

As far as view switching, I'm afraid that is just an inherent challenge. Staying focused on something in the 3D environment too long makes me loose SA on the action, but the F-10 map is certainly not as exciting- I give it my best shot on that and hope you guys still enjoyed it- I'd love a 3D view dedicated to spectating the action and think it would be a great addition to DCS down the road!

[Darkbrotherhood7]

Very nice guys, Hook is an excellent host! :)

 

Congratulations to both teams, it was to very very nice to see the Viggen in action.

[Oesau]

Appreciate those who tuned in and congratulations to Team Fishbed! Was absultelty awesome to see the Viggen in the action as well

 

As far as view switching, I'm afraid that is just an inherent challenge. Staying focused on something in the 3D environment too long makes me loose SA on the action, but the F-10 map is certainly not as exciting- I give it my best shot on that and hope you guys still enjoyed it- I'd love a 3D view dedicated to spectating the action and think it would be a great addition to DCS down the road!

 

You did a good job considering it's very difficult to keep track of what is going on so thanks for hosting it - really enjoyed the show.

 

Tacview realtime feed (when it is released) might be a interesting element to add to the viewing experience.

[comie1]

Was good fun well done all of you!

Would it be possible to get two spectator clients?

1. in 3rd person views

2. In F10 Map

Then play the 3rd person view on twitch with an overlay of the second clients F10 map in the corner or something?

 

Oh side question... Any chance of getting the Tacview file from the flight? ;)

[Stuge]

This match was decided by decisive Fishbed aggression in the beginning, and their better force coherence over most of the match. Only towards the end did Tiger manage to bunch up enough fighters to fight equally and perhaps even winning some of the late battles.

 

So, congratulations to Team Tiger for the loss and for having the energy to rise up to the challenge towards the end, giving Mig pilots a very action packed run for their money and some very nice combat entertainment for viewers.

 

Congratulations to Team Fishbed for pulling off a brilliant blitzkrieg-style anti-ship attack which set the tone for the whole match. The BTR strafing afterwards wasn't so brilliant though, did you guys even have A2G gun ammunition loaded? :D Oh well, at least you got them in the end.

 

Congratulations to the Leatherneck's Viggen pilots for demonstrating the aircraft's capabilities. The anti-ship missiles, the command-guided anti air missiles (very cool!!), combined with a quite nice maneuverility and short range air to air capability will make this module very welcome into the DCS community, and will surely be a favorite of many to fly in the future! Also thanks for the very nice formation flight demonstrations, it was great, regardless of funny mishaps in the end :D

 

The outcome of the match was definitely not decided by aircraft capabilities, but through which teams performs better two things: aggression and staying together. There is safety in numbers, you are likely to win a battle against a numerically inferior foe! Similarly, there must be maximum aggression against all known targets of high value, which was in this case the ships and BTRs. In this context, especially due to the high value of poorly defended ground targets, I believe it is not tactically wise to go strictly air to air, since Mig-21, F-5 and the Viggen can all have multirole capability. Neither is it wise to stay defensive, waiting for the enemy to attack, since any attack on such poorly defended targets is likely to succeed at least partially. Slipping past fighter cover happens all the time, the radars of these aircraft are not good enough to give good situational awareness of the surroundings, so a strike package will easily go unnoticed until things start blowing up!

 

Congratulations Hook on another successful event! Next time... Tigers/Viggens win again... but only if they train together a few days before at least :)

Edited December 11, 2016 by Stuge

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

I think live ground gci and SRS should be added to the next round. Would be a lot of fun.

 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

[ESAc_matador]

I think a GCI is needed for both teams to better coordinate.

 

Yep.

 

And limited aircrafts

[Stuge]

I think live ground gci and SRS should be added to the next round. Would be a lot of fun.

 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

 

GCI sounds good, SRS is a pain in the butt, and useless in this scenario with only 8 pilot teams. The only advantage gained is decreased voice quality :D

 

My subjective opinion. :)

Edited December 11, 2016 by Stuge

[Hook47]

You did a good job considering it's very difficult to keep track of what is going on so thanks for hosting it - really enjoyed the show.

 

Tacview realtime feed (when it is released) might be a interesting element to add to the viewing experience.

 

Thank you, yes I am greatly interested in Tacview Live Review! Cannot wait for that feature!

 

Throughout three rounds the F-10 map has been a steady gripe, and I would love to be able to find a way to stay on top of things without it, but for the time being we must play the hand dealt :) DCS is a wonderful sim and it has so much to offer, but one day I would really love a 3D Free Cam like the one in ARMA 3, Zeus Mod. This combined with labels would not only improve spectator activity and events like the Grudge Match Series, but it would REALLY improve Combined Arms quite nicely! I hope Eagle Dynamics will consider this soon!

 

CONGRATS TEAM FISHBED, and thanks to all participants! I will have a link to the stream up soon as well as a Youtube Video.

 

Thank you Leatherneck Simulations and all our sponsors for an awesome event. I know I'm no sportscaster but I've really enjoyed (trying) to cover these!

 

Look for the Twitch.Tv and Youtube videos on the front page soon! I have to take some time to burn a full length copy and to delete the rather useless negative Twitch Comments in the Chat Replay- the massive majority of the crowd however was great!

Edited December 11, 2016 by Hook47

[Snail]

This was the first Grudge match I watched and I enjoyed it very much. Hook did a really great job, covering the highlight of the moment. In the past I have been a part of a demo team that flew 'that other sim' and though we flew a thoroughly scripted and trained mission live for a live audience, the 'cameraman' still had to stay 110% focussed not to miss anything. So not a grain of criticism from my side. Well done Hook! Thanks for this great event!

 

And the Viggen is a must-buy of course :-)

[EinsteinEP]

I absolutely loved that twitch (once I got to see the stable replay, that is!). Excellent commentary, lots of good action to spur a lot of discussion...looking forward to watching a bunch more of these!

[*Rage*]

Ive since watched the replay again and the commentary is superb!

 

Thanks again to LN and Hook.

[ViFF]

Well that would all come down to the pilot. F5 and viggen have a good sustained turn rate below 15kft however the mighty mig has a faster instantaneous turn rate. This is surely going to be a great match up.

 

 

Actually Mig-21's horizontal sustained turn rate is currently superior to F-5's, but only in a relatively narrow speed margin (high speeds of ~800 km/h). However, Mig suffers from poor slow-speed handling and thus it is easy for the F-5 pilot to force an overshoot and dominate in slow-speed scissors/rolling scissors and any other one-circle/nose-to-nose geometry. This combined with relatively poor air to air weapon lethality of both aircraft means that 1 vs 1 scenarios are likely to take considerable time to finish, with offensive and defensive roles easily switching between combatants. Because of this, team work, tactics, and concentration of firepower plays perhaps the most significant part in this matchup, and most kills are accomplished by heatseekers fired without the target detecting the missile launch.

 

 

Actually MiG-21 is superior at all speeds (1 deg/s or more) and especially at slow speeds (600 km/h) where it's 3deg/s faster than F-5 optimum STR when both are at full tanks. With half tanks MiG-21 has 4 deg/s edge over F-5. There's no need for the MiG to go for scissors as it can escape it simply with level turn as F-5 will have poor turn rate at that speed while MiG is at it's optimum. edit: I haven't actually tested if level turn works but it seems to me like a plausible option considering the STR numbers.

 

 

The level turn seems the only good way for Mig to escape an F-5, more complex maneuvers can be followed through. F-5 auto flaps help with this! Even then, the F-5 pilot can make a reversal if unable to follow a sustained turn, causing a somewhat head-on merge ideally. The Mig pilot however struggles to stay behind a violently maneuvering F-5, overshoot occurs easily when going guns. Deep stall due to pulling stick too hard is a significant risk.

 

This is very useful information, I have both modules and was always curious what is the optimum tactics that should be used by each.

 

I have just one question: will the F-5 not better retain energy in the turns if you keep your speed up but also use FXD instead of AUTO for flaps?

 

Thanks in advance!

[Stuge]

ViFF I think the auto flaps do help with sustained turns for Tiger, so no I don't think there's an energy gain for not using them, mainly because it lacks a bit in the thrust department so you're often forced to turn at a slower speed where the flaps optimize the turn... I haven't measured optimal speed for turning in F-5 but I always felt it is much slower than the Mig's, because the engines just can't maintain the speed that would be required for a higher-speed and thus higher-G turn. In this way the F-5 is a bit like Su-27, you don't have to fly on the border of blackout to get maximum sustained turn rate, a lower speed with lower G will do for max performance, much easier on the pilot, good for health and less neck problems in the long run :)

 

In contrast the Mig-21 can sustain high enough G that blackout is a risk... but it's not as crazy as F-15C of course... that one is like having a large dog on a leash that's constantly trying to run away from you :)

Edited December 13, 2016 by Stuge