Even with the Spitfire, the bf-109 and the fw-190 will keep making the law in the sky

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

Mine ?

 

 

no,...CombatWombat....

[Ala13_ManOWar]

He also talks how he got shot down by a fw190 ace and that he made a childish mistake.So Ala13 you didn't read the book because he wasn't really showing off.

No, I didn't yet even though it's on my shelf, but did I said so? :smilewink:

 

I didn't felt like reading it, yet, because I know all that stuff, so I've red about it, I'm not inventing just to say Closterman was this or that and I don't have anything against him personally, it's a known fact he lied over all his achievements. Yes he was shot down, yet survived, and that also is told in his book in a way to make him appear even bigger and a greater pilot. Do you know something about literature, style, and how you can write and tell things in different ways to show what you want to? That's the thing, and Closterman not only wrote a novel on his life, he invented it, so I just warn not to take any of what he said as reality.

 

 

S!

[jopri02210]

Hi guys,

I'm reading a book from the French Ace of the WWII, Pierre Closterman, "Le Grand Cirque", he was a pilot on Spitfire IX, V and Tempest V. (This book is amazing, if you speak French or if translated versions exist, you should take a look).

 

 

I just checked on Wikipedia, this Pierre Clostermann got 3 kids : "Jacques, Jean-Pierre et Michel."

 

I have a teacher in my maritime school called Jean Pierre Clostermann, I've got to check if it's his son! :D

[Theskyline35]

No, I didn't yet even though it's on my shelf, but did I said so? :smilewink:

 

I didn't felt like reading it, yet, because I know all that stuff, so I've red about it, I'm not inventing just to say Closterman was this or that and I don't have anything against him personally, it's a known fact he lied over all his achievements. Yes he was shot down, yet survived, and that also is told in his book in a way to make him appear even bigger and a greater pilot. Do you know something about literature, style, and how you can write and tell things in different ways to show what you want to? That's the thing, and Closterman not only wrote a novel on his life, he invented it, so I just warn not to take any of what he said as reality.

 

 

S!

 

How are you saying all of that ?

 

I read that their was suspicion about how many planes P.Closterman shot down. An Historian said that Closterman was a liar, as you said.

 

So, there was an investigation, using RAF/Luftwaffe archives, afterward the tribunal confirmed 33 victories from this pilot without doubt, the historian was wrong.

 

And well it's cool that say that someone is a liar, but was you there ? What are you sources ? The number of victory doesn't matter, it's the fact that people fought and survived that matter.

[Kurfürst]

This is one of my favourite books and I cannot recall him ever stating that about the aircraft.

 

I think what he actually meant was that the pilots were helpless against these aces not the aircraft.

 

That said I do agree that it is odd that the allies are getting the most common aircraft and the axis the rare ones...

 

[Theskyline35]

 

Thanks for finding this page in English, I only had the original version !

 

In the middle of the page, as he said, "The Spitfire were powerless"

 

Damn, will see in few hours if it's that true :cry:

[Teldja]

Merci TheSkyline35 !

 

Now I have to read that book !

 

To be honest I am looking forward to see how perform and behave the Sptifire L.F. Mk IX versus the K4 and the Dora in DCS.

I hope you plan to make a video about it. :D

 

Cheers !

[Tdaffy]

I think that most of us here misinterpret, or have unrealistic expectations about 'Dog Fighting' in general. Especially in the WWII Sim genre. There are always the ongoing debates about this quote from this book and that pilot quoted this, and this one quoted that.

We have the fortunate benefit of History, reflection, and digitally accessed data at our fingertips today, as well as 'plug and play' software that we can input 'stuff' into, and get a comparison between models that should or should not confirm our, or our Simulated Squadron Mates "Historical" Perspectives.

At the end of the day, in reality, the vast majority of these "Dog Fights" were more likely not as dramatic or interesting as they've been assumed by us...today...some 70+ years...after the fact. Good pilots knew their machines, and their machine's limits. They also knew that they had to win...and shoot the other guy....or they would not go home. I believe that Historical accounts suggest that MOST engagements, and 'Dog Fights' on record lasted no more than a few seconds, and were usually over with before anybody (all sides) started to even contemplate how they were going to 'dog fight' "this opponent" today! It was pretty much systematic murder. Stalk them. Sneak up on them. Shoot them. Get the hell out of there.

I mean, I think it's fascinating myself and I'm addicted to the whole idea and the history of it. I just think that we have the benefit today of literally...not having had to have been there...if you will.

Most Aces from the WWI and WWII Era, when quoted, don't go on and on about this or that planes Flight model or Sustained vs Instant Turn rates. Mostly, they say...."If you found yourself in a Dog Fight, then you made a mistake." (loosely paraphrased lol)

I think we are a lot like that in our thoughts and styles today on these computers. We will take advantage of a million amenities of technology in order to have the edge on the other guy in the server room. But, the pixels are the same ones on his or her HD, and the FMs and Code is the same as everyone elses (plane specific of course), and the models have their characteristics....but a 109, or a P51, or a 190, or even the Spitfire is not going to be the better fighter...just because the FM and Statistics say it should be. It's going to be the virtual pilot and their technology that will win or loose the fight. In 2017. In 1939-45, it was the Pilot and their attitude.

[howie87]

It does say "The Huns, knowing the Spit's quality in a dog fight, carefully avoided taking them on, and the poor Spit's had neither the speed nor range necessary to force the new German fighters to fight" though...

 

I don't think this will be as much of an issue in DCS as everyone will want to get stuck in rather than run away all the time.

[Kurfürst]

The Spit IX is much slower (by about 40-50 mph) than all three other prop jobs so it cannot pick its fights, and cannot exit if its loosing... I think that was what Clostermann described as being "powerless".

 

But its also probably the best turning of them all three... soo... if it drags you down for a dogfight, you still probably gonna loose against it. Thats the only golden rule you have to keep in mind, although I think the 109K will be quite close on its heels even in turn.

 

Minding these two basic rules I myself usually just ignored them in past sims, presumably much to their frustration and hit them when they werent looking... Spit pilots love to chase their own tail in a furball so there are plenty of opportunities to shoot but no second chances when the MK 108 starts singing - and connects.. and if anything goes wrong, just dive out and then zoom. Spit cannot follow that. Then come around once he gave up the futile attempt to catch you.

[Krupi]

With any luck we will get 25lb boost and that deficit in speed will be reduced :D

[Theskyline35]

Merci TheSkyline35 !

 

Now I have to read that book !

 

To be honest I am looking forward to see how perform and behave the Sptifire L.F. Mk IX versus the K4 and the Dora in DCS.

I hope you plan to make a video about it. :D

 

Cheers !

 

Yeah read it, It's really entertaining ! I will make videos on this Spitfire, but don't expect real talented piloting ^^

 

The Spit IX is much slower (by about 40-50 mph) than all three other prop jobs so it cannot pick its fights, and cannot exit if its loosing... I think that was what Clostermann described as being "powerless".

 

But its also probably the best turning of them all three... soo... if it drags you down for a dogfight, you still probably gonna loose against it. Thats the only golden rule you have to keep in mind, although I think the 109K will be quite close on its heels even in turn.

 

Minding these two basic rules I myself usually just ignored them in past sims, presumably much to their frustration and hit them when they werent looking... Spit pilots love to chase their own tail in a furball so there are plenty of opportunities to shoot but no second chances when the MK 108 starts singing - and connects.. and if anything goes wrong, just dive out and then zoom. Spit cannot follow that. Then come around once he gave up the futile attempt to catch you.

 

You are the type of people I hate in the sky :thumbup: Because when I will engage the fight I will quickly discover you are a way better pilot and saying to me "What have you done, here you are, engaging a fight against a experienced pilot, you will try to follow him, you bleed you energy, he will catch your six and in few seconds, bam, you are out"

 

:P

 

Concerning what said Tdaffy, you are right, dogfight then and now in simulator are way different, real dogfight were very short, when 30 vs 30 planes were fighting, you chose a target, try to hit him and if you fail change target. In DCS, well, it's very commun to have asymetric fight with 2 vs 4 planes, and then in few seconds you would have 4 planes on your tail, running for the deck. Also in reality fight sweep had objective, in DCS you go for the fight and the kill as you said.

[rogonaut]

2/ It's a Bf109, if we don't out number them and they are good pilots, we are dead, we can't even escape and we don't fly high enough to take advantage of the compressor

 

running and diving are the big traits of the p51 against the 109, keep that window open and off you go having a k4 pilot cursing you cause he cant catch up:)

[Zimmerdylan]

 

I have seen these guys talk about this several times. For some reason I cannot post the actual video on the forums just now. But take a look at this.

[Zimmerdylan]

 

 

This one is really interesting. These guys are saying that it's hands down the 109. This is a must watch if you think that the P-51 is suppose to equal the 109.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Zimmerdylan

[Tdaffy]

Concerning what said Tdaffy, you are right, dogfight then and now in simulator are way different, real dogfight were very short, when 30 vs 30 planes were fighting, you chose a target, try to hit him and if you fail change target. In DCS, well, it's very commun to have asymetric fight with 2 vs 4 planes, and then in few seconds you would have 4 planes on your tail, running for the deck. Also in reality fight sweep had objective, in DCS you go for the fight and the kill as you said.

 

Yes. You said it better than me. In these sims, we pretty much find ourselves in deliberate engagements pitting one against the other more or less. Probably, at least in my opinion, if we were to go solely for pure historical RP, then it would be a Coop setting with each side (wing/squadron) receiving a simple briefing and what to expect based on radar and intel of that time periods capabilities...launch, form up, then patrol. Trust me, I and I'm sure a thousand others here would love it!!

Also, regarding my comments above, I certainly don't believe that good pilots in DCS are only good because of their technology. I might have phrased that badly. We all have a favorite ride and we study and employ it. That's what makes us good or bad. Plus...you gotta have fun at the end. Win or loose. I'm sure that the Spit is going to change the game a bit, but there are some deadly 109 and 190 pilots out here that are just salivating lol. S!

[Theskyline35]

 

I have seen these guys talk about this several times. For some reason I cannot post the actual video on the forums just now. But take a look at this.

 

interesting !!

[otto]

 

it's a known fact he lied over all his achievements.

 

S!

 

You mean he lied about being a successful businessman (what he did with Cessna license ) ,politician, book writer , fighter pilot ?

 

I don't like him either but many people hate and envy him because of those things.And also hate him for congratulating the Argentinian pilots in the war of the Falklands campaign.Which you can imagine is controversial after flying for RAF.And accused him of all kinds of crap that proved to be untrue like warcrimes in the Cap Arcona sinking for example.Which he had nothing to do with.And the list goes on and on.

[Zunzun]

This video is one of those zombies. Comes around every now and then from the tomb.

In reality it proves nothing.

 

What made the p/51 shine back then was that it could take off unopposed from East anglia, fly 300 miles deep into Germany and hunt down Luftwaffe planes while they were taking off, forming up, attacking the bombers or coming back to airbase and landing. It didn't need to dogfight to achieve that and no other plane was able to do it. That is air superiority.

 

Regarding the spit IX, by the time Doras and Kurfusts show up in numbers was busy hunting down the Wehrmacht. Those two were basically a nuisance for the task. If caught low, the luftwaffe planes could attack and disengage at leisure true. But if the opposite happened there weren't any lower place were to dive for the 109 and 190 and they were, then, in a pickle.

[Krupi]

This video is one of those zombies. Comes around every now and then from the tomb.

In reality it proves nothing.

 

What made the p/51 shine back then was that it could take off unopposed from East anglia, fly 300 miles deep into Germany and hunt down Luftwaffe planes while they were taking off, forming up, attacking the bombers or coming back to airbase and landing. It didn't need to dogfight to achieve that and no other plane was able to do it. That is air superiority.

 

Regarding the spit IX, by the time Doras and Kurfusts show up in numbers was busy hunting down the Wehrmacht. Those two were basically a nuisance for the task. If caught low, the luftwaffe planes could attack and disengage at leisure true. But if the opposite happened there weren't any lower place were to dive for the 109 and 190 and they were, then, in a pickle.

 

+1

 

Also why would you replace your current aircraft fleet with new ones that still have engine issues and require training when you are already in a state of complete air supremacy.

 

The Tempest and XIVs were on the front lines in 1944 to counter any threat and the old IX was relegated to support the advance of the ground forces with the tactics that had been learnt from the Desert Air Force

[HotTom]

Don't care about "game play balance", I want to fly historical planes. On online servers also you will rarely fly as they were flown in real life, not to mention that not everyone flying is an experienced pilot and regardless it will always be better against humans because the AI is really bad.

 

The way to make ww2 servers fun will be when we have a variety of things to do like escorting bombers and such.

 

If you think about air quake of course you will find the bf109 dominating but that's because it's arguably better.

 

Amen. It's a sim. Not a game.

[MiloMorai]

On Jan 1 1945 Allied a/c made ~175 claims (damaged-destroyed) during Bodenplatte. So Allied a/c were not totally outclassed by German fighters.

[Theskyline35]

On Jan 1 1945 Allied a/c made ~175 claims (damaged-destroyed) during Bodenplatte. So Allied a/c were not totally outclassed by German fighters.

 

Don't forget that many germans pilot were poorly trained.

[howie87]

It seems to me that Allied aircraft will have to adapt their tactics to fight the Axis forces effectively in DCS. The P-51 should use its high altitude performance and endurance to harass the 109 and 190 with boom and zoom tactics, forcing them to lose energy and wander into Spitfire territory.

[super_baloo]

How are you saying all of that ?

 

I read that their was suspicion about how many planes P.Closterman shot down. An Historian said that Closterman was a liar, as you said.

 

So, there was an investigation, using RAF/Luftwaffe archives, afterward the tribunal confirmed 33 victories from this pilot without doubt, the historian was wrong.

 

And well it's cool that say that someone is a liar, but was you there ? What are you sources ? The number of victory doesn't matter, it's the fact that people fought and survived that matter.

 

Yes Closterman has been credited for 33 victories by the French Air Force (FAF counts shared kills as full kills), the RAF credits him for 23 victories. Closterman personal claims are only those attributed to him from the RAF, he repeated it several times in aviations papers all along his life.

 

The big show is no Sci Fi, no pilot who fly with him ever invalidated what he wrote. Closterman has always been humble and discribed himself as a lucky pilot fighting against aces.

But he was more than a competent pilot, he was clever, as an engineer he had a solid understanding in his aircraft and was experienced as an aerobatic pilot even before the war.

 

Calling him a liar his plain defamation. The keyboard warrior who produces such an insult should better look himself in the mirror and consider trying to be more like Pierre Closterman than what he himself actually is.