Mongoos or Gunfighter

[RFC Rudel]

I was very interested in VKB but the combination of extremely limited availability, long delays, and a fluctuating North American distribution chain make me pretty skeptical.

 

Is it coming out? Will there be more than 20 sticks shipped worldwide? Will promised accessories get released in a timely fashion? History says mehhh and for that cost?

 

To me, VKB is too small to be a player in the joystick market and too big to give the communication and quality you get when working with someone like Milan or Baur one to one.

 

If something comes out, is great, and available, I'll change my tune.

 

 

 

in 2014 yes, you need to read 7 forums to get vkb info. (I said that to them)

If they have a problem is their own search for quality that make them redesign and even cancel products like the mamba.

 

Today is different, VKB have a world wide market in mind but without compromising quality or design, So yes they have delays but I prefer that to the Saitek like products.

 

VKB is a entire modular design not just a metal hotas.

 

VKB strong point:

 

From Mechanical upgrades to sticks changes, VKB offer a scalable system that allow you to build your simulator according to your need and your wallet.

Edited January 18, 2017 by RFC Rudel

[Abburo]

 

VKB strong point:

 

From Mechanical upgrades to sticks changes, VKB offer a scalable system that allow you to build your simulator according to your need and your wallet.

 

This is indeed one of best feature. Thanks for heads-up!!

[Winger]

Even if it misses some fancy clutch feature the VPC base makes a MUCH much sturdier impression to me. The VKB seems to be tiny. Especially with a long extension I cannot help but fear that it will break if youre rough with it. Might be wrong thou. What I like the most about the VPC base is that it utilizes pressuresprings instead of tension springs.

And all my previous experience with all kinds of joysticks tells me that tensionsprings ALWAYS break after a while of excessive use. Worst example was the Cougar Uber gimbal. Awesome and precise but beware if you had to change a spring. Such a PITA...

Thats why i went with VPC all the way. Up until today I only received the Grip and am waiting for a deskmount, extensionset, lefthandgrip and basegimbal to arrive.

The grip makes an awesome impression. High quality buttons and small activationtravel. Simple plug and play with Warthog Base. If I am asked id recommend VPC. But I have to admit all I say about VKB is just a subjective impression without ever having tested it.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Winger

[dburne]

I will have both.

I already have the VKB Gunfighter, and just awaiting on the new MCG grip to go along with it before setting it up.

Also have the Mongoose Base, Desk Center Mount bracket, and Extension set on order as well.

 

It will be interesting to see how the compare when I get them all set up. In fairness though, for the Gunfighter I only went with the desktop version as I did not want to mess with trying to create a mounting system for the extended model.

 

I will see which one, if any, compels me to finally retire my trusty Warthog with extension.

[Bearfoot]

... as I did not want to mess with trying to create a mounting system for the extended model ...

 

https://www.monstertech.de/en/product/joystick-hotas-table-mount/

[dburne]

https://www.monstertech.de/en/product/joystick-hotas-table-mount/

 

Thanks for the link, will check it out!

[LeCuvier]

A bit early to make the call!

 

There is hardly anybody who has a complete VPC stick (base + grip), so any definite statement at this point in time is guesswork.

I have been using a VKB Gladiator Pro for a few months now, and for the WWII birds it's just fine. But I actually bought it because I wanted to use my TM WH grip with the VKB base and that was a complete failure to me. I ruined one of my two TM WH grips trying to install the WH adapter from VKB and I never got it to work. The concept requiring the installation of an adapter inside the WH grip in my opinion is flawed. Even if you get it to work, you no loger have a TM WH grip because after the adapter installation it's no longer compatible with the TM WH base.

The adapterless TM WH compatibility concept of the VIRPIL makes more sense to me. But I have to see how well it works in practice. I have ordered the stick, so I hope to test it soon.

And here comes an issue both vendors seem to have. The supply chain of VKB is notoriously shaky, and VPC have just admitted they cannot ship the first batch of sticks by end-May. Both are small companies with a good idea but lack of striking power and probably not enough volume to give them leverage with their vendors.

Another issue I had with VKB is the lack of professional support, starting with documentation. I never saw any professional documentation for the Gladiator Pro and the Warthog adapter. Will see how VPC scores in this area.

[aaron886]

I ruined one of my two TM WH grips trying to install the WH adapter from VKB and I never got it to work. [...] I never saw any professional documentation for the Gladiator Pro and the Warthog adapter.

Sorry, but this is not a fair assessment of the product. It works quite well, and VKB does not hide the fact that you're buying a PCB and some wires which will need to be installed. I wouldn't be arguing if you had just criticized VKB's disorganized documentation, though. (There is in fact a pretty good pictorial explanation of the adapter installation. Why you proceeded without first finding it I don't understand.)

 

 

Even if you get it to work, you no loger have a TM WH grip because after the adapter installation it's no longer compatible with the TM WH base.

Why on earth would you ever want the Warthog stick base if you have the Gunfighter base? The only things worth using TARGET for are on the throttle anyway.

[Barefoot Bandit]

I think the simple answer to original post, is "We'll have a better idea once both of them are properly out in the wild - VKB is missing the MCG, and VPC is missing their base.

 

I can't see how this decision can be made before both can be bought.

 

As I've said before, I'll be buying both.

 

Z...

[LeCuvier]

There is in fact a pretty good pictorial explanation of the adapter installation. Why you proceeded without first finding it I don't understand.

Why do you suggest I didn't use all the pictures and videos that were around at that time? I did. And I had many exchanges with people who know the product, and I put it together, but I could never make it work. And nobody could really help me.

 

Why on earth would you ever want the Warthog stick base if you have the Gunfighter base? The only things worth using TARGET for are on the throttle anyway.

I don't need to justify why I want to be able to use the original TM WH joystick when I fly the hog.

[Sokol1_br]

The concept requiring the installation of an adapter inside the WH grip in my opinion is flawed.

 

"they would prefer to deliver “ready to use” products only "

 

https://vkbcontrollers.com/?p=5914

[Vullcan]

Lost a customer. Personally my grip is fine, i just want the best base with no stiction.

[Bearfoot]

Lost a customer. Personally my grip is fine, i just want the best base with no stiction.

 

You do realize that the difference between the "base only" and "base and grip" is something like $20-25, right? So all that is happening now is you need to pay effectively $20 extra for that $299 base. Now, if you think that $20 (~6.5% premium) is enough to tip the balance between "worth it" and "not worth it" for you, fair enough.

[Bearfoot]

I think the simple answer to original post, is "We'll have a better idea once both of them are properly out in the wild - VKB is missing the MCG, and VPC is missing their base.

 

I can't see how this decision can be made before both can be bought.

 

As I've said before, I'll be buying both.

 

Z...

 

I will have both.

I already have the VKB Gunfighter, and just awaiting on the new MCG grip to go along with it before setting it up.

 

You guys are in the relatively unique position (or, at least, select group) capable of actually assessing/evaluating these two fantastic offerings. Some of the speculations I've seen on this thread are absurd ("too small to be strong" --- lol, they should look at a helicopter jesus nut sometime). Looking forward to seeing your experience-based first-hand opinions. Don, you really should open up that box and set it up to do the comparison between the table top versions! Takes 10-20 mins or less, and the grip can be swapped in even less time (as in 2 mins). Or, for that matter, even just a peek at the internals, fit and finish to get an idea of the comparative workmanship would be really nice!

[dburne]

You guys are in the relatively unique position (or, at least, select group) capable of actually assessing/evaluating these two fantastic offerings. Some of the speculations I've seen on this thread are absurd ("too small to be strong" --- lol, they should look at a helicopter jesus nut sometime). Looking forward to seeing your experience-based first-hand opinions. Don, you really should open up that box and set it up to do the comparison between the table top versions! Takes 10-20 mins or less, and the grip can be swapped in even less time (as in 2 mins). Or, for that matter, even just a peek at the internals, fit and finish to get an idea of the comparative workmanship would be really nice!

 

Yeah it is tempting, may have a look at it tomorrow and see...

Thought I would wait till I got the new MCG grip, but really would be easy enough I guess to go ahead and program the stock grip in for the Spit just to test it out a little.

Getting motivated.

Edited June 2, 2017 by dburne

[Vullcan]

You do realize that the difference between the "base only" and "base and grip" is something like $20-25, right? So all that is happening now is you need to pay effectively $20 extra for that $299 base. Now, if you think that $20 (~6.5% premium) is enough to tip the balance between "worth it" and "not worth it" for you, fair enough.

 

No I wasn't able to see that because they took the product page down, and thats not very logical pricing.

 

I was looking at the Virpil page and their base + stick costs nearly twice as much as just the base alone, which is logical.

 

As it stands the VKB product is over $100 more than the mongoos base, so after reading the upcoming reviews it better justify that additional cost in terms of precision, feel, configuration, build quality and customer support / warranty.

 

Even without the reviews out, its easy to see from the instructions that they really make you jump through hoops (to modify your warthog stick) to get it to work with the VKB base. Going so far as to say do it at your own risk, do they really have a lack of confidence in their products quality / design that its easily damaged by your average computer enthusiast?

 

So the VKB base better be damn good to have that level of incompatibility with the hog grip, and theoretically the upcoming F18 grip (or whatever it turns out to be), all while charging way more to boot.

Edited June 3, 2017 by Vullcan

[Bearfoot]

No I wasn't able to see that because they took the product page down, and thats not very logical pricing.

 

I was looking at the Virpil page and their base + stick costs nearly twice as much as just the base alone, which is logical.

 

As it stands the VKB product is over $100 more than the mongoos base, so after reading the upcoming reviews it better justify that additional cost in terms of precision, feel, configuration, build quality and customer support / warranty.

 

Even without the reviews out, its easy to see from the instructions that they really make you jump through hoops (to modify your warthog stick) to get it to work with the VKB base. Going so far as to say do it at your own risk, do they really have a lack of confidence in their products quality / design that its easily damaged by your average computer enthusiast?

 

So the VKB base better be damn good to have that level of incompatibility with the hog grip, and theoretically the upcoming F18 grip (or whatever it turns out to be), all while charging way more to boot.

 

"do they really have a lack of confidence in their products quality / design that its easily damaged by your average computer enthusiast?"

 

LOL.

 

It's not so much lack of confidence in their products, nor the average computer enthusiast that are the issue ... but rather lack of confidence in the more clumsy/stupid/incompetent enthusiast who may break things, however simple or robust, and then may demand compensation.

 

Either way, it is clear that you have made up your mind to your own satisfaction based on speculation and conjecture, so I doubt you will learn very much from any discussion here.

 

But I will just say this about the TMWH compatibility: I get it's important to you, and, yeah, it's an easy cause to get behind at first glance, but personally I have come to see it as a white elephant. 100% compatibility means it limits the number of buttons, switches, and axes that can be supported. Drop the compatibility, and you can get, in addition to all the regular buttons and hat switches: an analog brake lever (for the Brit and Soviet WW2 birds), a trigger guard button (for any WW2 bird), and 2? 3? more 4-way hat switches as well as mini-stick. I'll take all of that with a cherry on top over TMWH compatibility, thank you very much! Not only will I be able to support the HOTAS mapping of any aircraft with all of that, but there will be sufficient buttons remaining to support all the essential "meta" functionality required in simming which are now scattered about the throttle and other places (VR zoom, enter, LMB/RMB/scroll, VoiceAttack, etc. etc.) or the secondary station mappings (e.g. radar controls of F-14 GIB, or Gazelle/BO 105 a/c commander). So, I think VKB made the correct choice in unshackling themselves from the constraints of the controls of yesteryear ...

 

p.s. and what is "logical" or not to you is not the same for me: the grip that comes with the desktop VKB is a simple one, plastic KG-12 (as opposed the fancy T-# Mongoose one). $20 is probably close enough to cost, so that premium over just the base makes perfect sense.

Edited June 3, 2017 by Bearfoot

[Vullcan]

Haven't made up anything, this is the thread to compare / discuss the two sticks and i believe the most important factors are stick feel and precision. If not i would have preordered one already.

 

The kg12 grip looks cool, but WWII aircraft aren't the primary reason myself (and i assume most others) own DCS. Id hazard to say it doesn't look like a good grip for the a10c.

 

For a brake lever, there are toe brakes on rudder pedals which feel very natural. The trigger guard would be immersive and the mini stick a nice welcome over the thrustmaster throttle failure... but not enough to make up for the other shortcomings.

 

Im basically saying $100+ is a lot of money for what looks like less on paper, so it will all come down to how the sticks feel and control DCS.

 

Seeing as how both allow you to use the warthog grip, it should be simple for reviewers to keep all aspects of testing consistent, only changing the base, to make an accurate and fair comparison.

[Bearfoot]

The kg12 grip looks cool, but WWII aircraft aren't the primary reason myself (and i assume most others) own DCS. Id hazard to say it doesn't look like a good grip for the a10c.

 

Absolutely. The (plastic) KG-12 is a placeholder grip. Almost like dust cover. It's adequate for WW2, Mig-15, F-86, and, maybe at a pinch the Huey. But even then it is a stretch, and lacking the meta functions.

 

"WWII aircraft aren't the primary reason myself (and i assume most others) own DCS": always amazed as the way people so easily and unquestioningly project their own needs, wants, desires, motivations, etc. to the rest of the world. I play DCS for helos and WW2 birds 99.99999% of the time. So do most people in my own bubble (naturally). The F-14 (even more than the F-18) may tempt me to dabble in jets. But currently if DCS dropped support for WW2 birds, my usage would drop 50%. Same with helos. My guess as to the feelings of the larger community is as good as yours. Though "wishful thinking" is probably a better term than "guess" or "assumption".

 

For a brake lever, there are toe brakes on rudder pedals which feel very natural. The trigger guard would be immersive and the mini stick a nice welcome over the thrustmaster throttle failure... but not enough to make up for the other shortcomings.

 

"toebrakes ... feel very natural" --- not on the Spit or Mig. You have to depress the toe brake and push the rudder on the same side. Really awkward. But the bigger point is: sure, you can work around the shortcomings of the TMWH when trying to fly a non A-10C ... but then, the same statement can be made about pretty much anything. Of course, the ergonomics in the WH stick are really good. But the addition of the analog brake, the mini-stick mouse, plus the extra hat switches just takes it to the next level. It's about "making it work" vs. "making it work better".

 

Im basically saying $100+ is a lot of money for what looks like less on paper, so it will all come down to how the sticks feel and control DCS.

 

You are correct. And, in principle, the question is the same whether the price difference is $0 or $1000. The problem is, of course, you are not going to know how it really feels till you handle it. You can rely on other folks' opinions, but then you are just betting $100 on some random person on the internet who you hope shares the exact same tactile preferences as you.

 

As for the comparison on paper, beside the price the only other thing I see is 100% plug-and-switch WH compatibility vs. the unrestricted range of (more) buttons, hat switches, mini-sticks, and analog axis. Assuming you plan on keeping the stick for, what, 5 years? 10 years? That $100 difference will get amortized away to practically zero. So that just leaves the legacy-compatibility vs. augmented features.

 

Seeing as how both allow you to use the warthog grip, it should be simple for reviewers to keep all aspects of testing consistent, only changing the base, to make an accurate and fair comparison.

 

There is literally an infinite number of ways to configure the VKB: choice of springs for each axis, dry clutch settings, etc. Followed by software dead-zones and responses. I am sure the Virpil has the same (sans dry clutch? I think?). Someone can only reasonable be expected to test a couple of configurations. And these configurations, furthermore, reflect one's personal preferences (do you like a stiff stick or a sloppy one; progressive tension vs linear; a sharp return to the center or a gradual one; a hard center detent or a soft one or none at all; etc. etc. etc.). Add to that one's preferences may change depending on what they are flying (helos vs WW2 vs jet fighters vs airliners) and even over time (e.g., first time you try a stiff stick you might like it, but after a while you realize you may want a softer one). And add to that, it takes experience and experimentation to even understand how different configurations of springs, dry clutch, etc. etc. effect the feel of the stick.

 

And then let's consider the comparison itself: you can measure precision and some other features by software, objectively. But given the hall sensors I really think it is going to be equal here, and the gazillion other variables noted above are going to play a bigger role. So what's left is subjective feel. Which is not only subject to all the other variables above, but also is by definition impossible to measure objectively or consistently, communicate reliably enough to capture the full richness of detail, nor very likely simply not transferable from one person to another.

 

So, maybe not so simple? ;)

 

That's not to say such first-hand comparisons will not be useful or interesting ... but, unless one stick is a total lemon, basing a buying decision is not necessarily going to be any less a leap of faith.

Edited June 3, 2017 by Bearfoot

[LeCuvier]

The kg12 grip looks cool, but WWII aircraft aren't the primary reason myself (and i assume most others) own DCS. Id hazard to say it doesn't look like a good grip for the a10c.

For a brake lever, there are toe brakes on rudder pedals which feel very natural. The trigger guard would be immersive and the mini stick a nice welcome over the thrustmaster throttle failure... but not enough to make up for the other shortcomings.

Different people focus on different features based on different criteria. I would like to see the products systematically assessed by separate scenarios:

1. for WWII aircraft

1.1 T-50 native vs. Gladiator Pro native. I'm lazy and would like to avoid frequent swapping of sticks. This comparison will decide which way I go

1.2 T-50 native vs T-50 with TMWH grip

2. for modern aircraft.

2.1 T-50 with TMWH grip vs Gladiator Pro with TMWH grip (unfortunately I won't be able to contribute to this one because I could not get the Gladiator Pro to work with the TMWH grip).

2.2 T-50 native vs T-50 with TMWH grip

There are probably additional scenarios using the Gunfighter instead of the Gladiator Pro, plus sub-scenarios for specific aircraft where one stick configuration has significant differentiators.

Which product setup is best suited for a gamer depends probably on several factors, like...

1. which aircraft they fly

2. Usage patterns (e.g. do they change planes frequently, or fly the same plane for longer periods)

3. Priorities like maximum realism vs convenience (e.g. the KG12 is more realistic for WWII planes, but it's more convenient to fly always with the same stick)

If we as a community make systematic and objective assessments we can all benefit by making better buying decisions.

In the end it would be great if we could somehow consolidate findings from different people into a single post or document.

[Bearfoot]

There are probably additional scenarios using the Gunfighter instead of the Gladiator Pro.

 

Extension vs no extension being the big one.

 

I, for one, have absolutely ZERO interest in a non-extended stick.

[The LT]

VPC Mongoos, hands down! Don't ask why. Just get it.

[RFC Rudel]

ZERO interest in a non-extended stick.

 

 

my wife agree