Burning Skies Stats aka the Caucasus Turkey Shoot ;)

[DefaultFace]

Except itll be a 21lbs spit XIV.

 

Coopes I'm not even gonna bother...

[coopes]

You should I was getting embarrassed for you.

[Krupi]

Of course not David I am not attempting to detract anything from the skills of you and other 109 pilots they still had to learn the aircraft they still had to master the 30mm and its small amount of ammo. Fair play to you and to them you have truly mastered the aircraft.

 

However I was fed up of those in denial that the Spitfire Mk IX and K4 is a good match up, it is clear it is not, it obviously is not. I had really hoped that the Mk IX could reign in the K4 however that is not going to happen. EVER.

 

So you ask what my aim is, well it is to point this out as best I can and hope that ED are aware of the issue and do something about it as far as I can tell we have two options...

 

The Mk14, which as has been already stated could just reverse the current status quo which I do not think will happen personally as the Griffon will still require the careful handling the Merlin requires.

 

Or

 

What I really really honestly hope will happen is that at some point we will get a G6 or a G14.

 

I like yourself and many others poured money into this sim and all its requirements and peripherals and I really hope to see it fulfil its true potential one day however to do that it will need a solid core of supporter and a growing community and I honestly think that with the current aircraft set that won't happen... People do not want to constantly feel like they are on the back foot and it will become tiresome. Blue pilots will leave, the Reds won't have anyone to fight against and what could have become the first true WW2 sim will come to nothing which would be a great shame.

 

So you ask me what my aim here is, it is to point out the short comings in an attempt to ensure that this sim doesn't fail because no one else is providing me with what I want to see in regards to a high fidelity ww2 sim other than ED.

 

This is not personal.

[Krupi]

 

The thing I want the most right now is damage model. The hit box style system is sucky and gives BS outcomes.

 

See you in the skies for both Red and Blue :thumbup:

 

+1

[amazingme]

I wonder if adding some bombers to the mission will change the airquake altitude.. positively.

 

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

[Kurfürst]

Please. Give them what they want, that G14. Just for week. Just a rough FM, with the same 3D model. I mean if the T-800 is already out there, things can only get better if we add the Predator as well, right.

[rel4y]

Well, as we all know we had a heavier and less maneuverable G-14/U4 until February or March of last year.. This is such a stupid thing to ask for. I still dont get it. The thing did 570 kph at deck, a G-14 does the same or more and has 250 shots of MG151 awesome to spread. Please, for Gods sake gimme that G-14 and make it stop!

 

These stupid discussions return on a monthly basis and nothing will change. Only effect is potential new players reading this bs will be scared off and no new people will turn up on the servers.

[Krupi]

The G14 was much slower than the K4, not faster...

[rel4y]

Like I said around 570-575 at deck. The DCS K4 until Feb 2016 did around 570 at deck. Up until 4k it was a heavier and less maneuverable G-14/U4.

[Krupi]

Like I said around 570-575 at deck. The DCS K4 until Feb 2016 did around 570 at deck. Up until 4k it was a heavier and less maneuverable G-14/U4.

 

 

:music_whistling:

[Bounder]

well...whats the goal of this discussion really? to tell every 109 pilot he only has kills because he flies that certain aircraft? he must have no clue right, because he flies that uber plane, and skill is of no relevance, because he has the wonder weapon?

....

 

I think I get what your saying David but I think the object is to discuss the apparent disparity between the allied and axis lineup we have in DCS, and most specifically the Spit IX and 109K4.

 

I don't buy the argument that one side has better pilots on average than the other and would be equally offended but knowing Krupi (as you do) without wanting to put words into his mouth I don't think anyone's calling the 109K4 a "noob plane" (although I frequently hear that about Spitfires in flight sims :lol:)

 

We have a mid-war Spitfire against late war opponents. This we’ve all known since the kickstarter. The relative performance differences between the aircraft should be of no surprise at all, the 109K4 is the most powerful 109 variant of the war. The same is not true of the Spit IX.

 

The mk IX is a very capable aircraft and you can get plenty of success against the Dora and 109K4. A good pilot and organised teamwork are vital – but this is true of any aircraft and those being equal, the Spit IX is up against it.

 

Whilst it’s true the Spit IX has a turn advantage (which is particularly useful when defensive - and frustrating to opponents), against the current line up there is a crucial top speed disadvantage. It means enemies have a fantastic advantage - the luxury of being able to hound and then disengage at will. I believe this is the major crux of the difference in stats – kill/loss ratios are not only built on kills (duh). When a 109K4 or Dora feels he isn’t getting the best of the Spit, he has a very good chance to cut and run. The Spit IX is however powerless to do so and must fight on unless friends save him. Given how fast the Spit burns through fuel in a fight, very often I know I need to get out of the action area soon and rtb but find I am unable. It’s funny, there can be 10 allies alongside me but somehow the Hun always sniff me out seemingly knowing I have to return for fuel (100 Octane and tea) ;)

 

My hope is that ED will eventually give us a better line-up of aircraft on opposing sides which will benefit both playerbases. What we have now isn’t really EDs fault and they are busy working on a ww2 map. For longevity though I feel a better lineup of opposing fighters will be needed. It’s one of the major draws to other ww2 flight sims available for me. Whilst it’s true the Spit IX faced the 109K4 and Fw190D9, it’s also true Fw190A8s and 109G6s faced the Spit XIV. The mk XIV is coming eventually and that will represent a suitable and more even opponent for the K4 and D9s. My hope (really really hope) is that we can get a 109G6 and a Fw190 A6/8 for the Spit mkIX.

 

[fake edit] I haven’t mentioned the Mustang and wanted to say it is more capable in chasing down and escaping to safety so it’s not like the Axis can always out run / catch their prey.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Bounder

[Buzzles]

[snip]

:music_whistling:

 

That graph has absolutely no relevence to rel4y's post Krupi.

 

 

To everyone else:

 

We know there's a new damage model in the works. Shall we all wait for that and actually see what happens to dogfighting in DCS?

[DarkRaiderss]

Like I said around 570-575 at deck. The DCS K4 until Feb 2016 did around 570 at deck. Up until 4k it was a heavier and less maneuverable G-14/U4.

 

Yes the 109 was slower until about a year ago.

[rel4y]

Don't ever post graphs from spitfireperformance without questioning them. What he didn't tell you is that this is calculated data for an ac with cannon gondolas and predicted engine performance. This is not from a flight test. There are several real life flight tests which I am referring to.

[Krupi]

Don't ever post graphs from spitfireperformance without questioning them. What he didn't tell you is that this is calculated data for an ac with cannon gondolas and predicted engine performance. This is not from a flight test. There are several real life flight tests which I am referring to.

 

You don't trust that website seeing what Krufurst is like, I can't trust his sources either... where does that leave us?

[CripesAMighty]

To provide some balance from the allied side (you can probably guess that the Mustang is my favourite A/C from my username), I do not think that the Me109K4 in the sim is "unbeatable". I believe that ED have done a great job with the flight model and simulation of the aircraft, its just unfortunate for the Allied pilots that the K4 is the variant which was modeled. It is absolutely historically possible for a Spitfire IX variant or Block 15-30 P-51D to engage a K4 over Germany/the Low Countries in 44' or 45', and I would still like to see other variants of all A/C added (as many others do too)

 

I saying that I also believe that the K4 gains some advantages from the state of the simulator currently, as well as some decisions made by the developers. The damage model is an issue for everyone (all aircraft incredibly resilient but also incredibly fragile in some ways) but it is clear that the AN/M2 under-performs, you just need to take a look at some gun camera footage (Examples). In addition, the Mustang is currently missing the G-Suit, which was in wide service by the time the K4 was operational (Link) The DM is planned to be fixed which will be a great improvement for everyone.

 

Finally, the altitudes which A/C need to operate at in MP currently favor the Luftwaffe. The engagements need to occur at 26,000ft+ to see a performance advantage for the Allies. This will change with the release of Normandy.

 

There are good pilots on both sides, and I suppose my point is that at some point Allied pilots need to stop making excuses, and trade forum posts for stick time. Here are the statistics from the last complete month on Burning Skies (January)

 

 

I'm at #3, and I'm flying the same P-51D as everyone else. There is one other Mustang pilot in the top 10 who has figured it out, and a few more in the top 25. The top Spitfire is #23, and i'm sure as people get more stick time they'll move up the list. If the allied pilots who are struggling change their approach i'm sure they'll see better results. Remember, being a pilot is not just about reefing on the stick and leading accurately, its equal parts tactics and airmanship.

 

In summary, I suppose my points are for us allied pilots to work with what you have for now, wait for the DM update, wait for Normandy, ask what you can change about how you fly instead of what ED can change about the sim. Its absolutely tough for the allies now and can get frustrating, but you'll be in a much better position when ED finally release the updates. Everybody wins if we try and put our biases aside and work towards the most realistic simulator possible.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Cripes'A'Mighty

[rel4y]

You don't trust that website seeing what Krufurst is like, I can't trust his sources either... where does that leave us?

 

That leaves us with the data from eg Rechlin archives, which is actually one of the best there is concerning german ac. I was there twice last year, very interesting and a nice place at that.

[Krupi]

To provide some balance from the allied side (you can probably guess that the Mustang is my favourite A/C from my username), I do not think that the Me109K4 in the sim is "unbeatable". I believe that ED have done a great job with the flight model and simulation of the aircraft, its just unfortunate for the Allied pilots that the K4 is the variant which was modeled. It is absolutely historically possible for a Spitfire IX variant or Block 15-30 P-51D to engage a K4 over Germany/the Low Countries in 44' or 45', and I would still like to see other variants of all A/C added (as many others do too)

 

I saying that I also believe that the K4 gains some advantages from the state of the simulator currently, as well as some decisions made by the developers. The damage model is an issue for everyone (all aircraft incredibly resilient but also incredibly fragile in some ways) but it is clear that the AN/M2 under-performs, you just need to take a look at some gun camera footage (Examples). In addition, the Mustang is currently missing the G-Suit, which was in wide service by the time the K4 was operational (Link) The DM is planned to be fixed which will be a great improvement for everyone.

 

Finally, the altitudes which A/C need to operate at in MP currently favor the Luftwaffe. The engagements need to occur at 26,000ft+ to see a performance advantage for the Allies. This will change with the release of Normandy.

 

There are good pilots on both sides, and I suppose my point is that at some point Allied pilots need to stop making excuses, and trade forum posts for stick time. Here are the statistics from the last complete month on Burning Skies (January)

 

 

I'm at #3, and I'm flying the same P-51D as everyone else. There is one other Mustang pilot in the top 10 who has figured it out, and a few more in the top 25. The top Spitfire is #23, and i'm sure as people get more stick time they'll move up the list. If the allied pilots who are struggling change their approach i'm sure they'll see better results. Remember, being a pilot is not just about reefing on the stick and leading accurately, its equal parts tactics and airmanship.

 

In summary, I suppose my points are for us allied pilots to work with what you have for now, wait for the DM update, wait for Normandy, ask what you can change about how you fly instead of what ED can change about the sim. Its absolutely tough for the allies now and can get frustrating, but you'll be in a much better position when ED finally release the updates. Everybody wins if we try and put our biases aside and work towards the most realistic simulator possible.

 

+1

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

I think I get what your saying David but I think the object is to discuss the apparent disparity between the allied and axis lineup we have in DCS, and most specifically the Spit IX and 109K4.

 

I don't buy the argument that one side has better pilots on average than the other and would be equally offended but knowing Krupi (as you do) without wanting to put words into his mouth I don't think anyone's calling the 109K4 a "noob plane" (although I frequently hear that about Spitfires in flight sims :lol:)

 

We have a mid-war Spitfire against late war opponents. This we’ve all known since the kickstarter. The relative performance differences between the aircraft should be of no surprise at all, the 109K4 is the most powerful 109 variant of the war. The same is not true of the Spit IX.

 

The mk IX is a very capable aircraft and you can get plenty of success against the Dora and 109K4. A good pilot and organised teamwork are vital – but this is true of any aircraft and those being equal, the Spit IX is up against it.

 

Whilst it’s true the Spit IX has a turn advantage (which is particularly useful when defensive - and frustrating to opponents), against the current line up there is a crucial top speed disadvantage. It means enemies have a fantastic advantage - the luxury of being able to hound and then disengage at will. I believe this is the major crux of the difference in stats – kill/loss ratios are not only built on kills (duh). When a 109K4 or Dora feels he isn’t getting the best of the Spit, he has a very good chance to cut and run. The Spit IX is however powerless to do so and must fight on unless friends save him. Given how fast the Spit burns through fuel in a fight, very often I know I need to get out of the action area soon and rtb but find I am unable. It’s funny, there can be 10 allies alongside me but somehow the Hun always sniff me out seemingly knowing I have to return for fuel (100 Octane and tea) ;)

 

My hope is that ED will eventually give us a better line-up of aircraft on opposing sides which will benefit both playerbases. What we have now isn’t really EDs fault and they are busy working on a ww2 map. For longevity though I feel a better lineup of opposing fighters will be needed. It’s one of the major draws to other ww2 flight sims available for me. Whilst it’s true the Spit IX faced the 109K4 and Fw190D9, it’s also true Fw190A8s and 109G6s faced the Spit XIV. The mk XIV is coming eventually and that will represent a suitable and more even opponent for the K4 and D9s. My hope (really really hope) is that we can get a 109G6 and a Fw190 A6/8 for the Spit mkIX.

 

[fake edit] I haven’t mentioned the Mustang and wanted to say it is more capable in chasing down and escaping to safety so it’s not like the Axis can always out run / catch their prey.

 

yeah i totally agree...and you know i do ;)

109G and Fw190A8 would be awesome...heck ive said it quite often, give me a 109F4 and i wont complain. more variety will always be a good thing for all of us and the longevity of the sim.

[otto]

I fly both sides when I jump into a 109 I know things are going to be a lot easier for me this is my experience online.

 

.

 

And that could be explained rationally by a few things :

 

1.Less experienced players on one side.When you fly on one side it's not only you that makes the difference it's the whole team even if you're not coordinated.

 

2.Your preconception that one side has weak planes.So you see yourself as already defeated even before you take off. That works against you as you're setting yourself up to fail.

 

 

 

Now if I were to try that in a spitfire I would have no chance, even with a wingman. So for me it is pretty black and white.

 

 

I was never good with a spitfire in any game.Others were gods.

 

 

 

Personally I think there are only two ways to solve the current problem either giving the spitfire the 25lb boost which will slightly close the performance difference or my personal preference a G6/AS or G14 is produced.

 

I've got these kills without mw50 boost:

 

XoSNOEBLh9I

wZlguXL5JuE

H90jgDfCm2E

 

I can get lots of kills without boost.

I actually fly worse with mw50 because i fly less carefully and make mistakes.And if i got another 109 or 190 like G6 or A8 i wouldn't even care if i lose all the time even if i've seen other players dominate tempests and spit 14 with those planes .It would be fun for me just to improve .

 

And you know what. If all pilots are equal maybe you can get some kills like me:

No headtracking, an old pc that stutters ,no rudder pedals [i have to save money for study purposes ] and sometimes no mw50. If you get one kill like that in 2 moths i'll be really blown away.

Edited February 28, 2017 by otto

[Krupi]

You have missed the point Otto, the speed from MW50 is only relevant when you are in a bad spot , obviously when you are dogfighting you will be reducing throttle.

[Kurfürst]

I have learned today that having 400 extra horsepower under the hood is meaningless in a dogfight.

[Krupi]

Not as meaningless as someone who is on a thread that they cannot comprehend since they do not fly online, which begs the question why are you even here Kurfurst...

[Swoop117]

Complains, complains and what else? Another complains, likewise other sim (or sim-wise) forums are full of. I would bring something spicy to this discussion. Reading other threads here I found complains about online team work. Someone really thought and tried to prove that online team work using TS is not honest as it prevents to unveil individual pilot's skills. They plan their attack, get all the time connected, cover and warn each other, etc. and by this they almost eliminate possibility to act against them individually. It was proposed to ban those ones who plays in team as it limits individuals and hence they could leave (or leave) DCS online for something else what finally impacts number of online playes. This sounds weird to me but this is what was said there. I believe DCS is a very capable world to choose - find - act like your individuality requires despite of it certainly has issues (there is nothing perfect in our world and as to me this is good :)).

[Krupi]

So last night I had the pleasure of flying with DavidRed and DefaultFace an experience which I would like to publicly thank them for.

 

Originally the plan was to fly the Spitfire, unfortunately events conspired against us and the blue side was out in force last night... 16 Blue vs 6 Red... Even the team's for crying out loud people...

 

We had one quick sortie in the spitfire, unfortunately in my haste to join the fun I embarrassingly blew my engine and had to drift back to base as they got stuck in.

 

We ended up taking 109s next as the team's were not going to become even anytime soon. We spawned with the airfield spewing lead all around us as P-51 and spitfires flew low over the base... Seriously when will people learn to stay away from base, let people take off!

 

Regardless off we went and in short succession we had raked up a few kills, not surprising given the target rich environment that was offered to us. Within a few minutes the skies were clear however it wasn't long before another wave ok blue aircraft was upon us...

 

Now the first thing that we agreed upon was just how bad shoulder shooting has been of late, it seems that the stat page has turned a lot of people into shameless kills stealers and by the end of the night I think we all had at least two kills robbed each.... :(

 

As the night wore on the team's became even and we moved from dogfights over our base to eventually dogfights over the allied base...

 

Unfortunately I had to leave shortly after as it was quite late.

 

I had four kills registered and two deaths both pilot kills from a spitfires guns.

 

DefaultFace also had four kills

 

David Six kills (Note that he had to leave for a while so he probably had more)

 

Unfortunately this venture only reinforced my belief that of all the aircraft the IX have the hardest time of it, to put it simply speed is life and nothing will stop its slow speed from being a death sentence. I say this because I have experienced the same scenario but reversed, if you have 109s over your base you are in for a very rough and frustrating time and prepare to die a LOT. I felt no such qualms going up in the spitfire infested skies above the red base.

 

All in all it was a very good experience and we had a good conversation, we all agree that we need a Gustav and Anton. We also agree that petty arguments will do nothing to avail the current issue, the onus is on us to convince ED and to do that we need to be unified not arguing amongst ourselves.

 

Thanks again DavidRed and DefaultFace, now I hope we can jump in Spitfires tonight :D

Edited February 28, 2017 by Krupi