A proper engine cooling mechanism

[razo+r]

What I'd like to see is a proper engine cooling mechanism for WWII planes. Right now, It cools and heats up so fast, I don't think this is real...

 

Neither a water cooled GPU nor a Car could do what the cooling in DCS does...

 

Hopefully this is on the to-do list already

[Jarlerus]

Have you tried flinging the GPU cooler and/or car cooler through the air at ~300 knots?

 

I'm not saying the DCS cooling model is "proper". I am saying that you don't seem to actually know it isn't proper.

[razo+r]

Have you tried flinging the GPU cooler and/or car cooler through the air at ~300 knots?

 

I'm not saying the DCS cooling model is "proper". I am saying that you don't seem to actually know it isn't proper.

 

No i didn't try that, but a gpu and a normal 4cylinder car engine (at least the gpu) won't get as hot as an airplane engine, but you can try it eith the gpu, fans full rpm when the gpu is idling, maybe even car, idle the engine after driving and turn if you can the fans full up, maybe even roll down a hill and see what happens

 

I had a 980 ti water cooled with fans at maximum, when on load, it didn't heat up as quick as in dcs when you are doing an air start, neither did it cool down as quick as in dcs when idling

 

And i'm sure so dramatic temperature differences would have fatal consequences for the engine/metal

Edited April 17, 2017 by razo+r

[sobek]

Your car doesn't have 1000+hp and it doesn't operate in a speed range of 0-600 mph, it doesn't use the same volume of coolant, it doesn't have a pressurized coolant system, the radiator dimensions and flow arrangements are wildely different, how on earth could you come to the conclusion that that is a valid comparison?

[Pocket Sized]

Yeah, the cooling systems in fighters are engineered very precisely to work just fine if you fly the airplane in a sensible manner . Which is to say, KEEP YOUR SPEED UP!

 

Doesn't matter what plane you're flying, lower power settings and higher airspeeds will save your engine. Each plane has at least 5 engine management discussion threads in its subforum.

[Mars Exulte]

People really misunderstand how these things work.

 

I had to take a crash course in engine management flying Il2:CloD with ACG. It's not terribly complicated, but you do need to read up on the operating ranges and characteristics of your SPECIFIC aircraft (each has different specs). It will help a lot more than coming to the forums and complainingc 'it's too hard'.

 

Engine RPM management via prop pitch and throttle.

Engine coolant and oil temp via radiator adjustments.

Maximum safe cruise RPM

Maximum short duration emergency power RPM

 

When you can answer any questions about those four things, you'll quit blowing engines and achieve maximum speed and power for your aircraft.

[drPhibes]

An internal combustion engine is incredibly inefficient, with a typical efficiency of around 20%. So 4/5 of the energy you put into the engine is lost as heat. For a 1200HP engine that would equate to ~3,5 MW (3,5 million Watts for the non-SI folks) in heat loss. The specific heat of water is 4180J/kg °K, meaning that you need 4180J of energy to increase the temperature of one kg of water with one degree Kelvin. 1 Watt = 1 Joule/second, so ~4,2kW of thermal energy will increase the temperature in one kg of water by 1°K every second. 3,5MW will do the same to ~840kg of water. Every second. And the total coolant volume isn't anywhere near that; perhaps around 1/10th (wild guess; I don't have any manuals available here at the moment). So it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out that there is an enormous amount of heat that has to be dealt with, and it is not comparable to a gpu cooler or car engine, which have huge radiators compared to what you can cram into the wings and/or fuselage of a plane. Is the modelling in DCS perfect? Probably not, but that does not mean that people should make wild assumptions on topics they know little or nothing about.

[razo+r]

Ok then forget about my examples (you could do a model of a real wwii system but nobody would do that)

 

But then if it heats up so quick and also cools down so quick, shouldn't the metal get damaged?

 

In some planes i can go full power, open rads and i can still undercool my engine which results in a broken engine, but the point is, that I can undercool an engine at full workload (low and high speeds)

Edited April 17, 2017 by razo+r

[razo+r]

Your car doesn't have 1000+hp and it doesn't operate in a speed range of 0-600 mph, it doesn't use the same volume of coolant, it doesn't have a pressurized coolant system, the radiator dimensions and flow arrangements are wildely different, how on earth could you come to the conclusion that that is a valid comparison?

 

Why did i compare these systems? Because they are cooled by "water" and some things are downsized

 

So all say, gpu and car should be able to cool better due to bigger coolant volume and radiator size/less heat output from the power source?

 

Then shouldn't our wwii stuff always be on the higher part on temps and not instantly cool down whem engine is on load but radiators are full open ( especially 190/109)

 

I guess you could put a car or gpu in a windtunnel, but other than that, these two systems should cool the heat source better, at least, that's my conclusion after reading all of your posts above (but not how it is in dcs)

 

so actually, all you guys confirmed my thought about the not-so-well-simulated cooling system...

 

@pocket sized and zhukov032186, this shouldn't be a thread about engine management, but more about how dcs modelled the cooling system and how it behaves compared to real life

Edited April 17, 2017 by razo+r

[Mars Exulte]

What I told you, is instead of making assumptions, go do some actual research on how aircraft cooling systems work and compare it to what you see, then you'll know if it's accurate or not.

 

At this point you're saying : ''Is this right? I don't really know anything about it, and can't be bothered to find out, but I think this is wrong.''

 

If you're not willing to actually put some effort into finding out, and are not willing to listen to the explanations given by others, then your opinion is like your a--hole : nobody really cares to hear about it.

 

 

If you came here and said 'I read this and this about this aircraft, and it doesn't seem to be behaving in line with what I studied' you would have a valid point to operate on. Instead you came here, 'I have no idea what I'm talking about, but Imma just throw this out here.'

 

If you have done some research, then please elaborate and show it to us, otherwise, accept you may be wrong or misunderstanding the process.

[myHelljumper]

Prove us that it is wrong, "I don't think this is real..." is not enough.

[razo+r]

Prove us that it is wrong, "I don't think this is real..." is not enough.

 

GPU and Car should be able to cool more efficient according to the previous posts, but our planes in DCS cool much more efficient

 

read the previous posts

[Mars Exulte]

On what... do you... base... your belief.

 

Have you... ACTUALLY looked into it? I think not. Therefore, you're just drawing random conclusions. Even if you're correct, you have no frame of reference to say 'right or wrong'.

 

Go. Read. About. This topic.

[razo+r]

What I told you, is instead of making assumptions, go do some actual research on how aircraft cooling systems work and compare it to what you see, then you'll know if it's accurate or not.

 

At this point you're saying : ''Is this right? I don't really know anything about it, and can't be bothered to find out, but I think this is wrong.''

 

If you're not willing to actually put some effort into finding out, and are not willing to listen to the explanations given by others, then your opinion is like your a--hole : nobody really cares to hear about it.

 

 

If you came here and said 'I read this and this about this aircraft, and it doesn't seem to be behaving in line with what I studied' you would have a valid point to operate on. Instead you came here, 'I have no idea what I'm talking about, but Imma just throw this out here.'

 

If you have done some research, then please elaborate and show it to us, otherwise, accept you may be wrong or misunderstanding the process.

 

I'm willing to find out and I've told it you with my examples, the other people then told they are not comparable because they are more efficient (my examples) but this is not what we see in DCS

 

Instead of telling me what to do, you could also to something by yourslef, give me a proof that DCS is real and that I'm wrong

[myHelljumper]

GPU and Car should be able to cool more efficient according to the previous posts, but our planes in DCS cool much more efficient

 

read the previous posts

 

I have read it but you can't compare a GPU a car and a plane, the power is not the same, the heat is not the same, the cooling is not the same.

 

This way I can say "I can run my car at max revs for a long time and the engine won't blow up, please fix the plane engine blowing up." :)

 

You see ?

[razo+r]

On what... do you... base... your belief.

 

Have you... ACTUALLY looked into it? I think not. Therefore, you're just drawing random conclusions. Even if you're correct, you have no frame of reference to say 'right or wrong'.

 

Go. Read. About. This topic.

 

Let's say the cooling is proper, then just after the first idle, the metal should break right?

 

As I said, can you give me an example that tells me i'm wrong?

[Mars Exulte]

No. I will not reward you for being lazy. Read a book dammit. Even just go to wikipedia, scrub.

 

It would take very rapid extreme temperature fluctuations to cause the kind of temperature induced shattering you're talking about, way more than just a hundred or so degrees. The COOLANT is dropping in temperature rapidly, not the metal itself.

Edited April 17, 2017 by zhukov032186

[myHelljumper]

I'm willing to find out and I've told it you with my examples, the other people then told they are not comparable because they are more efficient (my examples) but this is not what we see in DCS

 

Instead of telling me what to do, you could also to something by yourslef, give me a proof that DCS is real and that I'm wrong

 

No, it does not work this way, DCS is produced by engineers with real data coming from the real planes.

 

It is you to prove DCS wrong, DCS does not need to justify everything they do...

[razo+r]

I have read it but you can't compare a GPU a car and a plane, the power is not the same, the heat is not the same, the cooling is not the same.

 

This way I can say "I can run my car at max revs for a long time and the engine won't blow up, please fix the plane engine blowing up." :)

 

You see ?

 

As I said in a previous post, they said, it has a smaller radiator, with higher airflow and a hotter heat source than a GPU and a car engine with less cooling fluid volume

 

so i came to the conclusion, if we would speed up a GPU and a car engine cooling system to the speed of an aircraft, they would simply cool more efficient... which i guess is logical but nobody tetsed it?

 

Could be that I've made a wrong though about scaling, i think i missed the speed in my thoughts... but still, I don't expect an engine with full RPM and boost to get undercooled

 

So one part got cleared, sorry for that (cooling when idling)

 

but now one question remains, cooling while full workload...

[razo+r]

No. I will not reward you for being lazy. Read a book dammit. Even just go to wikipedia, scrub.

 

 

I tried to have a discussion... not being rude, everyone can still learn, so instead of calling me a scrub, tell me what i could learn or what i'm mistaking...

[myHelljumper]

I tried to have a discussion... not being rude, everyone can still learn, so instead of calling me a scrub, tell me what i could learn or what i'm mistaking...

 

Making a thread asking for a better mechanism not even knowing or researching why the mechanism would be broken or wrong is asking for it....

[Mars Exulte]

There are a lot of things that can affect your cooling. Ambient temperature, airflow, power setting, and fuel air ratio (affect by altitude, too).

 

At low altitude, an engine will heat more, air is thicker, temperatures higher. Also, aircraft are tuned for an ideal operating range. A Mustang or 109 is not tuned for low altitude flight.

 

If you're in a high altitude aircraft at low altitude, going all out, it will heat very quickly. If you back off, the coolant will still dissipate heat quickly because of the airflow (assuming you opened radiators). Even at low speeds you're talking about several hundred mph of airflow... that will cool fairly quickly.

 

We're only talking temperature fluctuations of a few dozen degrees here. The gauge is moving 'a lot' but no, you're not going to shatter metal over such small changes. Prolonged high temperatures can and will blow gaskets, crack heads, etc. Normal operation will not.

[probad]

if you dont even know what subjects are relevant to the issue at hand...:doh:

I tried to have a discussion... not being rude, everyone can still learn, so instead of calling me a scrub, tell me what i could learn or what i'm mistaking...

doubly funny because you're not shy at all about calling others scrubs and telling them to look up the information for themselves ingame

Edited April 17, 2017 by probad

[razo+r]

At least with this conversation i know now what caused my confusion and the reason why i did this thread

 

thanks

Edited April 17, 2017 by razo+r

[Pocket Sized]

Shock cooling isn't caused directly by rapid temperature changes. It's caused by temperature GRADIENTS.

 

If you chop the throttle and dive in a 172, the outer casing of the air cooled engine will cool down and contract while the inner portions cool down slower and stay expanded. This creates huge internal stresses that "stretch" the outer casing, forming cracks. Same thing happens to the turbine blades in a jet engine if you shut it down without letting it cool at idle for a bit.

 

I have a sneaking suspicion that shock cooling is extremely unlikely in a water cooled engine due to the largely uniform temerature within the engine. Don't quote me on that, though.