Pilot blackouts for almost nothing

[Havremonster]

Pilot blackouts for almost nothing. Why?

[razo+r]

What was your G load?

[_schepper_]

Negatif g?

 

Posotif g, a pilot can handel way above 6g

but whit fast negatif g the blood to your brain is not good en therefor fast blackout i think,

 

Correct me if i am wrong :)

 

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[Cobra847]

The G-Loading can happen so fast when flying fast that you can instantly blackout.

 

However- we're still investigating whether this is a transient in the FM that may be causing it (e.g. the negative G spikes for a millsecond or something triggering a blackout)

[TOViper]

The G-Loading can happen so fast when flying fast that you can instantly blackout.

 

However- we're still investigating whether this is a transient in the FM that may be causing it (e.g. the negative G spikes for a millsecond or something triggering a blackout)

 

Hello!

 

I really appreciate your motivation for investigations on this topic.

I would like to share my personal flying experiences with negative g-loads which might help someone here. The feelings I describe here are not measurable, but I feel it in this way, so please consider this comment as subjective.

 

During competition flying in aerobatics, I sometimes have to fly figures at negative g-loads up to -5.5 (yes). While approaching them quickly (far below 1 second), the blood pressure "needs a little time" to increase in the head due to elastic effects of blood vessels (this is what a doctor told me). The "system response" (the pressure increase I feel in the brain) while reaching -5.5 g's is NOT instant, and NOT following the g-meter. BTW: The pain comes a little later, when the pressure distribution is constant (assuming the g-load stays constant).

 

The most important point is, that I never experienced anything like "blacking-out" or getting unconscious while flying negative. This is contrary to flying positive g's, where I have gray-outs very often, but this depends on the final g-load AND the time of full g-load onset AND also the speed the g's are approaching.

 

This post is not meant to disagree other posts of people who are flying fast jets (that might exist in this forum). AFAIK, although at high IAS, the g-load onset for a -3g load takes somewhat of 0.3 to 0.6 second until fully established. This relates especially to swept wing and high swept wing aircraft.

 

Also it must be said that training DOES help withstanding g-loads. I really don't know if jet pilots do regular training on flying negative g's. AFAIK they hate flying negative (despite some F-16 display pilots and maybe others indeed do it ...).

 

These "training effects" could then be logged to a virtual pilot logbook :P.

The actual effects then take into considerations the "training" of the virtual pilot *sorry_just_fantasy* :smartass:

 

 

Kind regards,

TOViper

[-IRRE-Rolluptito]

There definitely are "instant blackouts" with little amount of negative G sometimes. Things I don't experiment on any other module. There's for sure something to investigate. :)

 

And thank you for your comment TOViper, that is interesting!

[easy_ci]

I got instant Blackouts (not Redouts) while flying supersonic and pulling negative G's.

[Havremonster]

What was your G load?

I dont know but just a little touch forward on the joystick and instant blackout. I dont have these problem flying the other airplanes. Well maybe sometimes in F15 too.

[VincentV]

Only getting blacked out if i go like above 1.0mach and pull more than 8G's..

[Snowman]

I have this issue as well. What for me makes this annoying is that other dcs aircrafts doesn't have this that detailed modelled. I've been thinking if this can be because of the extremly slow trim. It might be that theese blackouts happen very easy when not trimmed for the current speed.

If I for example engage ATT hold when flying in mach 1.4 and the trim was done at mach 0.7 and then disengage ATT hold resulting in instant blackout. Even if I try to trim as often as I can its hard to keep the trim up because of the slow trim. Could this be the case that the blackouts are related to the trim. I did read somewhere that the trim is related to the FPS which I have a strong feeling of being true.

 

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[2-niner]

Yes! This has killed me so many times and it's a super annoying way to die, and like others have said I haven't experienced this in other modules.

[Silverado]

This blackouts making it very hard to fly fast and low (like, 10 meters low) over not completely flat terrain. Thing, that Viggen supposed to do. Very annoying and killed me so many times that i stopped counting.

 

After even slight push of the stick Viggen goes to -4g and cannot recover with pilot blacked out.

[Holton181]

Just because you don't see it in other modules doesn't mean it's incorrect, it might as well be the other development teams didn't put much effort into making negative g reactions as real as possible, for what ever reason.

[-IRRE-Rolluptito]

Yeah, maybe. But as it is for people who has the bug, it is just impossible...

Minus 1G instant blackout does exist... Only in your dreams.

[Ghost_SWE]

I think the Spitfire suffered from this when it was released. Think it has been corrected now though.

[TOViper]

I have this issue as well. What for me makes this annoying is that other dcs aircrafts doesn't have this that detailed modelled. I've been thinking if this can be because of the extremly slow trim. It might be that theese blackouts happen very easy when not trimmed for the current speed.

If I for example engage ATT hold when flying in mach 1.4 and the trim was done at mach 0.7 and then disengage ATT hold resulting in instant blackout. Even if I try to trim as often as I can its hard to keep the trim up because of the slow trim. Could this be the case that the blackouts are related to the trim. I did read somewhere that the trim is related to the FPS which I have a strong feeling of being true.

 

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Additional infos about supersonic speed (also relates to the trim problem):

Flying at supersonic speed is problematic in regards to g-forces, since we are far above v-attack (va). This means when pulling, there are a few things to consider by the pilot (or the flight control system when installed):

- the wing is able to produce 20gs or more, which has to be limited somehow (poor aircraft :cry:)

- there will be a very long time high-g onset when the stick is pulled, since it takes a "long" time to slow down the aircraft to a speed lower than va (poor pilot :cry:); furthermore if you fly supersonic, the engine might produce as much thrust as aircrafts drag thus it might happen that you don't loose speed -> time of high-g onset is infinite limited by the onboard fuel (poor pilot squared :D)

 

Apart from having such difficulties in positive g-regime, this hits the negative g-regime most, since drag is much less and aircraft and pilot are more sensitive to negative g-forces.

 

Ah ... and ... yes: the trim setting has to be performed VERY carefully. In doubt I pull a little in advance before de-activating the autopilot when I activated it below M0.8.

[TOViper]

This blackouts making it very hard to fly fast and low (like, 10 meters low) over not completely flat terrain. Thing, that Viggen supposed to do. Very annoying and killed me so many times that i stopped counting.

 

After even slight push of the stick Viggen goes to -4g and cannot recover with pilot blacked out.

 

Hello Silverado, please let my try to help here a bit.

 

Don't know exactly what you are doing relating to the problem you stated ... but it might help to really take care about your stick movements.

It will definitely help if you act very gentle when requesting something from the aircraft in regards to pitch (especially when flying low and in the speed regime of M0.7 to 1.2). Try to approach from your lowest request (very slight and slow movements), and then slowly increase your requests (more and faster movements) if you got the feeling for it.

This should be done exactly vice-versa than the most people do when using flight sims - boom full deflection here, full thrust there, boom crash :smilewink:.

 

It also might help to add a curvature to your joystick config.

E.g. I am using 50% curvature (due to the potentiometer design of my stick). It works really great, since I can "configure" my g's onset to at least 0.1 to 0.2 g scale if needed so!

This helps me in really "feeling" the aircrafts aerodynamic abilities.

 

If you dont mind give me feedback if you were successfully with following/trying out these suggestions :joystick:

 

Kind regards,

TOViper

Edited January 5, 2018 by TOViper
added word "trying out"

[Rtyer]

This blackouts making it very hard to fly fast and low (like, 10 meters low) over not completely flat terrain. Thing, that Viggen supposed to do. Very annoying and killed me so many times that i stopped counting.

 

After even slight push of the stick Viggen goes to -4g and cannot recover with pilot blacked out.

 

I have the same. It happens unexpectedly and at a slight overload at speeds above 1000 km/h

[Eldur]

I just had this issue one or two days ago. Was flying at 8-9k, full burner, 1.4 - 1.5ish, trimmed nose down just a tad and my screen went totally black. All I could do was go F2 and watch my Viggen lawndarting straight down, 90° into the ground since I didn't get back the control at all.

 

Yeah, maybe. But as it is for people who has the bug, it is just impossible...

Minus 1G instant blackout does exist... Only in your dreams.

 

-1G is just a hand stand. But well, I've seen a well known WW2 simulation giving redouts as soon as you pass 0G into negative direction and it still does today. I tried to get twice the neg G load myself by turning my head upside down and didn't get a redout instantly and not even after one or two minutes. But that didn't count as a proof for the sim being wrong in that regard, or maybe I'm just overmodelled

 

[TOViper]

I just had this issue one or two days ago. Was flying at 8-9k, full burner, 1.4 - 1.5ish, trimmed nose down just a tad and my screen went totally black. All I could do was go F2 and watch my Viggen lawndarting straight down, 90° into the ground since I didn't get back the control at all.

 

-1G is just a hand stand. But well, I've seen a well known WW2 simulation giving redouts as soon as you pass 0G into negative direction and it still does today. I tried to get twice the neg G load myself by turning my head upside down and didn't get a redout instantly and not even after one or two minutes. But that didn't count as a proof for the sim being wrong in that regard, or maybe I'm just overmodelled

 

 

 

If I am honest ... I fly negative g-forces very often, and up to values of -5.5g, and I have NEVER (NEVER) seen red things ... this is just stupid nonsense in computer games since ... I don't know ... maybe 30 years, its time to throw this away, and I kindly ask HB to rework this a little bit.

What a pilot might see is grey out (yess grey when negative), and maybe stars depending on his daily physical conditions.

Where would the red color come from? Blood? Haha. If a blood vessel really explodes in the eye (this spot is the black for the pilot), why does then the color disappear if g-forces are gone? Com'on ... where are the medics? I have seen a pilot collegue, who had a vessel gone (right in the white area of the eye), so he wasn't able to see it. But we did :smartass:

 

I talked to a lot of guys in some community I have access to (military forces, aerobatic pilots), and nobody I asked has ever seen red things.

 

Sorry for saying this so clear, but it is not only that I think its nonsense ... no: IT IS nonsense.

Edited July 7, 2018 by TOViper

[Quip]

In real life - and I'm not saying this is working properly in the game, but it's worth remembering - pilots can pull high Gs as long as the onset is slow.

It's far worse going from 1 to 5G in a blink of an eye than to pull 7G for several seconds.

[TOViper]

In real life - and I'm not saying this is working properly in the game, but it's worth remembering - pilots can pull high Gs as long as the onset is slow.

It's far worse going from 1 to 5G in a blink of an eye than to pull 7G for several seconds.

 

 

This is true, if the onset is to fast, you might see stars (at daylight) :P

I had this a few weeks ago ...