Amazing how much hardware affects flying helos

[streakeagle]

I have had the UH-1 since it was available. The early release was a little rough as it was all too easy to get into VRS and somewhat hard to get out before hitting the ground when flying low. Even back then, I was fairly proficient with the UH-1 with the hardware I had: 46-inch 1080p TV, my real F-4 Phantom stick with the B-8 grip (identical to the UH-1 stick grip) using a BU0836X for the USB interface, a Warthog throttle, Saitek Pro Rudder Pedals, and TrackIR. From my very first flight, I was able to take off into a hover, transition into forward flight, transition back to a hover, then land.

 

 

My F-4 stick used industrial grade linear pots, which eventually needed frequent cleaning with alcohol to minimize spiking. I got tired of having to clean it almost every other night and also needed more buttons/hats for modern aircraft, so I bolted my Warthog stick in its place. This greatly increased the stability and precision (from 12-bit to 14-bit analog values with no spiking and no maintenance required).

 

 

I flew like this for a long time. Then all of a sudden I got Oculus Rift when it went on sale this past summer for $400 and I had already stumbled into a GTX 1080. VR totally changed my ability to fly helos in DCS. I could really perceive the slightest drift and simultaneously watch my gauges, where I was going, and look through the lower glass to pick my landing spot very precisely. I didn't think it could get any better.

 

 

But I was wrong. Unlike my F-4 stick, the Warthog was a little clunky around the center and suffered from "sticktion" despite my best lubrication efforts. The extension I added so that it would sit at the same height and have the same range of motion in the pitch axis as my F-4 stick reduced the problems, but it was still difficult to make small, precise movements using only a little force. Enter the MCG Pro. It has a longer extension, which allows more precise inputs for the same amount of movement, but that is partially canceled out by the downgrade from 14-bit to 12-bit analog values. The real gain is the incredibly light easy feel to the stick near the center with no real increases in stick forces until you reach the last 10 or 20% of the max position. I can now effortlessly make very small corrections.

 

 

Combine this smooth, precise stick with Oculus Rift, and I feel like I can fly the UH-1 anywhere and land exactly where I want. I understand many think the Saitek Pro Rudder Pedals are utter crap or at least need to be modified to make good tail rotor control pedals. However, I have had my set for years and they still don't spike or need a deadband to work well. I am sure many of the high-end rudder pedals mentioned frequently on this forum are much better, but for now, if it isn't broke, I won't fix it. Whenever they finally fail, I will look into getting one of the high end rudder pedal controllers frequently mentioned on flight sim forums. In the mean time, I am very happy flying DCS helos with the hardware I currently have.

[hansangb]

I couldn't agree more. I don't have sticktion problems, but before getting Milan's WH Extension, I used the spring mod to swap the springs for that light touch. Then when I added the WH extension, I put the old main spring back on. I remember a Huey pilot saying "if you can't control it with just a few fingers on the cyclic, something is not right" Since then, I too moved on to Rift which increased by ability to fly the Helo orders of magnitude!

[Cibit]

I have warthog with 15cm extension fitted to a wheelstand pro between my legs and a collective at my side so my controllers mirror what I see. Along with jetseat it's as immersive as possible without owning a huey and flying it :)

[Sokol1_br]

..more precise inputs for the same amount of movement, but that is partially canceled out by the downgrade from 14-bit to 12-bit analog values.

 

This 14 x 12 bits is really noticeable in practice?

[NeilWillis]

It's not really surprising at all that operating simulations is affected by the interfacing hardware.

 

You get what you pay for - as in all things.

 

You can find some excellent peripherals, and you can also find some that are dire. Read the reviews, hear what people on forums have to say about their latest purchases.

 

Above all, buy the best gear you can afford, always.

[Gearbox]

I remember back in my Falcon 4.0:AF days going from a stock Cougar to uber2-modded one made airborne refueling go from impossible to pretty fun.

[Bearfoot]

It has a longer extension, which allows more precise inputs for the same amount of movement, but that is partially canceled out by the downgrade from 14-bit to 12-bit analog value

 

Can you really tell the difference? I went from a Saitek X-55 to a Warthog with 20cm extension, and it was a night-and-day difference. Then to a VKB Gunfighter Pro, and it was better still, but not quite as a dramatic. But I have no idea how you assessed 12-bit vs 14-bit precision! Is that even humanely possible??!!

 

More generally, though: agreed. In terms of performance gain, for me the single biggest one came from VR, followed by upgraded stick, followed by upgraded pedals, followed by upgraded throttle. Frankly, the single biggest difference was VR, and that's the only no-going-backer. I used to fly with TrackIR and 4K. It looked beautiful. But VR feels better. And the last couple of times I tried flying in 2D, it was a disaster. Don't think I can -- or want -- to fly in 2D anymore.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Bearfoot

[Jabbers_]

12 bit to 14 bit is a pretty large difference in precision, we are talking 4096 to 16384, thats 4x the range

[cichlidfan]

12 bit to 14 bit is a pretty large difference in precision, we are talking 4096 to 16384, thats 4x the range

 

That does not address the question of whether you can tell the difference. Most people do not have the ability to move their hands in increments small enough for that difference to matter.

[hannibal]

try using a full length cyclic... that control is, imho 1 on 1..

 

[rrohde]

but that is partially canceled out by the downgrade from 14-bit to 12-bit analog values.

 

Just FYI - you can up the resolution for VKB devices in VKBdevCfg to 15. The default is 12.

[Bearfoot]

Just FYI - you can up the resolution for VKB devices in VKBdevCfg to 15. The default is 12.

 

Interesting. Good to know! Why are the defaults lower rather than the maximum? Is there any reason -- or are there trade-offs -- we can't or shouldn't just crank everything up to maximum precision?

[rrohde]

That question should be directed at the VKB engineers. I don't mess too much with my settings. :)

[Bearfoot]

That question should be directed at the VKB engineers. I don't mess too much with my settings. :)

 

Asked: http://forum.vkb-sim.pro/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=2901

[Sokol1_br]

Why are the defaults lower rather than the maximum?

 

Probable because 12 is more than your brain, hand/foot can manage. :joystick: :D

 

Means movement of 0.00X angles, or 0.0x milimetre for practical use.

[streakeagle]

This 14 x 12 bits is really noticeable in practice?

 

Using JoyTester2 I can see the difference. 12 bits is about the lowest resolution that will work. In practice, you want a greater resolution than you can perceive. I don't perceive discrete steps in control positions when I drive a car or fly a plane in real life.

 

 

As with music files, there is a minimally acceptable resolution used to keep file sizes down, then there is a good resolution that is almost impossible to detect, then there is insane resolution that is impossible for event he most stalwart audiophile to notice compared to an analog recording. 12 bits is around the middle. 14 bits is at the edge of too high to detect. So for me, 12 bit is somewhere between minimum acceptable and goo while 14 bit is right at the edge of insanely high.

 

When it comes to graphics, I have always been a fan of high FPS when others were claiming 30 was plenty. I also enjoyed 1600x1200 when most were still playing 1024x768 or 1280x1024. So the idea of having controls with a resolution high enough to be so smooth and precise that it is beyond my mechanical ability to move only 1 bit is very appealing. The control equivalent to a "retina display": pixels so small that you can't perceive them.

 

 

With the controls in the game, I can't see the difference the way I can in the tester, but the exact situations where it makes a difference for me are precisely aiming a gunshot and landing exactly where I want while hovering in a helo. But the force required to move the Warthog nullified the resolution. I had to use both hands and concentrate fairly hard to enjoy the full 14-bit resolution, which wasn't happening in a dogfight or while flying a helo. If I had the Warthog's 14-bit and the VKB mechanics, I am fairly sure it would be easy to notice the difference at the edge of a stall or while hovering.

Edited January 12, 2018 by streakeagle

[streakeagle]

Just FYI - you can up the resolution for VKB devices in VKBdevCfg to 15. The default is 12.

 

 

I was not aware of that. I know from the Warthog that I can move a stick with a 15cm extension one bit at a time. With the VKB stick's lighter feel around the center and longer extension, I might be able to see 15-bits if I am very careful and easily see 13 or 14 bit resolution with very little effort or concentration.

[streakeagle]

I see the precision level on the axis config, set to 12 :)

[streakeagle]

I adjusted the pitch and roll axis resolutions. I can easily move the stick and see each step of movement at 15-bit. The light feel and much longer extension of the MCG made it dramatically easier than going for 14-bit with the Warthog.

 

Now there are only a few reasons to go with a Warthog over the MCG:

1) Price. The Warthog stick and throttle can be bought together for $400 or less when you catch it on sale.

2) Form. While the MCG can be configured to emulate the Warthog's stick control maps, it still does not have the size or shape of the Warthog. The Warthog stick is perfect for those who fly DCS A-10C or Falcon 4 BMS since it is the exact size and shape and has the same or better button mapping options.

3) Feel. While I prefer the feel of the MCG, I am sure there will be many who like the weight and/or feeling of the metal Warthog grip. Some may even prefer the heavy springs despite the clunky transition across the center.

 

Personally, I find the feel of the MCG almost perfect, though I think it could still benefit from slightly heavier springs as I like the idea that pulling the stick all the way back should require enough force to cause fatigue during extended dogfights. As it stands, I can easily tell I am close to hitting the hard stops by the spring force

[streakeagle]

Upon further review, there is either some sort of filtering/averaging/deadbanding going on. I can move 3 or 4 steps of 2 in a row, then I have to move a lot more to see a change, and then it jumps by 20-30 instead of 2. So while the chip is capable of 15-bit, the necessary noise/hysteresis filtering doesn't let you fully access it. There may be settings to adjust that, too. But the stability and smoothness is great just the way it is, if it isn't broke, don't fix it!

Edited January 12, 2018 by streakeagle