How to control aircraft when you are out of fuel

[Beqanyc]

Hello everyone,

 

 

Do you guys know any procedures on how to control the aicraft (AV-8B) when it is out of fuel?

 

Does it have any emergency systems ? like RAT (Ram air turbine) or any other system used during the engine power loss.

 

 

any help is greatly appreciated.

[Mars Exulte]

I've always been a fan of vigorously flapping my arms followed by jumping in the final moment to cushion the impact.

[Emmy]

Unless you're trying to avoid a school or old folks home below you, pull the loud handle and step outside...

[Eagle7907]

How to control aircraft when you are out of fuel

 

No fuel = running on battery. I’d check in the NATOP Harrier manual under emergency section. Good question, bad situation.

 

 

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[joey45]

Pull the handle and hit the silk.

[Beqanyc]

No fuel = running on battery. I’d check in the NATOP Harrier manual under emergency section. Good question, bad situation.

 

 

I tried to search for the manuals :) , i found couple, unfortunate could not find the information i was looking for,

 

I agree with you , in most aircraft the battery takes over the basic flight controls in case of engine power loss , or RAT . its kind of hard to believe that 30 million dollar aircraft has no backup system in this type of scenario.

 

it would be interesting to know if this aircraft has some sort of backup hydraulic system in case of engine power loss.

[Kang]

In all fairness, it's also hard to believe that 30 million dollar aircraft are generally piloted by people who just happen to run out of fuel. ;)

[Buzzles]

In all fairness, it's also hard to believe that 30 million dollar aircraft are generally piloted by people who just happen to run out of fuel. ;)

 

I dunno, I'd imagine getting shot at with AA when doing a ground strike has the chance of having your tanks unintentionally drained...

 

Either way, engine failure is engine failure, whatever the root cause. They'll be something in the irl manual about it.

[mvsgas]

Of all the manuals I have read in the past I have never seen "out of fuel" in flight emergency.

From A1-AV8BB-NFM-000

15.34 FUEL LEAK

1. Minimize maneuvering.

2. Air refueling switch — OUT.

3. Boost pumps — OFF.

4. Fuel flow proportioner — OFF.

5. Execute Inflight Fire procedure.

Note

Excessive maneuvering may discontinue fuel syphoning and may cause

fuel pooling in the bottom of the fuselage to come in contact with hot motor

sections. Use of nozzles may also increase the likely hood of igniting fuel

pooled in the fuselage.

 

If we follow engine fire procedures is does not say anything about engine being shut down.

It does say

15.27.3 Inflight

*1. Nozzles — AFT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

*2. APU GEN — OFF.

*3. MASTER ARM/GUN — OFF.

*4. Throttle — MINIMUM REQUIRED.

If fire persists:

*5. EJECT.

 

If we follow compressor stall procedures

*1. Throttle — IDLE.

*2. AOA — REDUCE TO LEVEL FLIGHT AOA.

If JPT continues to rise; before 590 °C:

*3. Throttle — OFF.

4. Emergency oxygen actuator — PULL.

5. Initiate airstart

 

And following air start

[ATTACH]175757[/ATTACH]

 

This is not exclusive to the AV8B, the F-117 is the same. If you are out of fuel, you eject. F-16 you have the emergency power unit (EPU) that can be powered by hydrazine (if engine is off) but that gives you 10 minutes ( or less, depending how much are you moving the flight controls etc.)

Edited January 8, 2018 by mvsgas

[Eagle7907]

I tried to search for the manuals :) , i found couple, unfortunate could not find the information i was looking for,

 

 

 

I agree with you , in most aircraft the battery takes over the basic flight controls in case of engine power loss , or RAT . its kind of hard to believe that 30 million dollar aircraft has no backup system in this type of scenario.

 

 

 

it would be interesting to know if this aircraft has some sort of backup hydraulic system in case of engine power loss.

 

 

 

The problem, I believe, is that a backup system for power uses extra weight. Even though it would probably help save the jet if you are near a long enough piece of pavement, it probably doesn’t out weigh the ability to carry more munitions.

 

 

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[Eagle7907]

Of all the manuals I have read in the past I have never seen "out of fuel" in flight emergency.

From A1-AV8BB-NFM-000

 

 

If we follow engine fire procedures is does not say anything about engine being shut down.

It does say

 

 

If we follow compressor stall procedures

 

 

And following air start

[ATTACH]175757[/ATTACH]

 

This is not exclusive to the AV8B, the F-117 is the same. If you are out of fuel, you eject. F-16 you have the emergency power unit (EPU) that can be powered by hydrazine (if engine is off) but that gives you 10 minutes ( or less, depending how much are you moving the flight controls etc.)

 

 

The inflight fire procedure does make sense to me. You only have one engine, and most of the time to extinguish the fire you don’t need to use an extinguisher. Bit interesting that there isn’t any procedure for fuel exhaustion.

 

My guess is there isn’t one because if you’ve ran out of fuel over enemy territory, it’s in the governments best interest to destroy the aircraft.

 

 

 

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[Beqanyc]

In all fairness, it's also hard to believe that 30 million dollar aircraft are generally piloted by people who just happen to run out of fuel. ;)

 

:lol: i like your comment! but unfortunate things happen , there are many instances where both commercial and military planes run out of fuel, sometimes mechanical failure, ground crew mistake , or just pilots like me who do not pay attention to fuel gauges :)

 

 

 

 

Of all the manuals I have read in the past I have never seen "out of fuel" in flight emergency.

From A1-AV8BB-NFM-000

 

 

If we follow engine fire procedures is does not say anything about engine being shut down.

It does say

 

 

If we follow compressor stall procedures

 

 

And following air start

[ATTACH]175757[/ATTACH]

 

This is not exclusive to the AV8B, the F-117 is the same. If you are out of fuel, you eject. F-16 you have the emergency power unit (EPU) that can be powered by hydrazine (if engine is off) but that gives you 10 minutes ( or less, depending how much are you moving the flight controls etc.)

 

 

Thank you! that is interesting! As far as i also learned after many hours of googling, AV8B just does not have any backup for engine failure. The developers did an amazing job on this module , it would be interesting to hear their insight on this matter.

 

 

 

The inflight fire procedure does make sense to me. You only have one engine, and most of the time to extinguish the fire you don’t need to use an extinguisher. Bit interesting that there isn’t any procedure for fuel exhaustion.

 

My guess is there isn’t one because if you’ve ran out of fuel over enemy territory, it’s in the governments best interest to destroy the aircraft.

 

 

Very good point , lets just say the plane is not in the enemy territory but on routine training exercise and just looses its engine. the concern is that you are loosing the flight hydraulics, which leaves you only option to eject and lose the aircraft.

[mvsgas]

:

Very good point , lets just say the plane is not in the enemy territory but on routine training exercise and just looses its engine. the concern is that you are loosing the flight hydraulics, which leaves you only option to eject and lose the aircraft.

 

But like I said, is not an AV8B exclusive thing. The F-15A/B/C/D does not have a battery, so if both your engine are gone (because fuel starvation), there isn't much to do but to eject. The JFS would do you no good either, no fuel.

Edited January 8, 2018 by mvsgas

[Emmy]

This is why you brief Bingo Fuel and it's carved in stone unless there are dire circumstances at play. It's why you do Ops Checks in flight so you have SA regarding the state of your aircraft.

[epoch]

If all else fails, just find a handy cargo ship.

 

[NeilWillis]

In a low fuel situation, you'd take appropriate steps to secure the aircraft BEFORE the engine shuts down. Even a loss of fuel due to battle damage would give prior warning of a fuel emergency.

 

There are 2 fuel status warning light for just this reason, and if you ignore them, and fail to factor in fuel requirements at mission start then there is but one course of action open to you - eject!

 

The procedure for running out of fuel is "Never run out of fuel".

[Eagle7907]

:lol: i like your comment! but unfortunate things happen , there are many instances where both commercial and military planes run out of fuel, sometimes mechanical failure, ground crew mistake , or just pilots like me who do not pay attention to fuel gauges :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Very good point , lets just say the plane is not in the enemy territory but on routine training exercise and just looses its engine. the concern is that you are loosing the flight hydraulics, which leaves you only option to eject and lose the aircraft.

 

 

Interesting. I wasn’t sure if the Harrier had an electrical backup hydraulic pump or not. So absolutely, if there isn’t fuel, you have no choice but to call mayday and punch out.

 

 

 

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[robmlufc]

You can drop the undercarriage (Helium filled blow down bottle) and flap the rudder (manual reversion) around a bit when you run out of engine. The other flying controls are all powered purely from the hydraulic pumps connected to the engine.

[Robert31178]

I read that there is no RAT in a Harrier.

[robmlufc]

I read that there is no RAT in a Harrier.

 

Correct

[some1]

Actually, an out of fuel situation is not that unlikely, in almost every pilot memoir that I've read (including Joint Force Harrier) there are some very close calls. But as others have said, installing backup systems for engine-out situation increases weight and cost, so it's all a calculated risk. And since harrier is not very well suited for flameout landing due to landing gear configuration, plus its V/STOL capabilities imply that there may not even be a conventional airfield within operating rage, it probably has been decided not to bother with it.

[Fri13]

:lol: i like your comment! but unfortunate things happen , there are many instances where both commercial and military planes run out of fuel, sometimes mechanical failure, ground crew mistake , or just pilots like me who do not pay attention to fuel gauges :)

 

The main reason that I can see that can't be fault of pilot, is malfunctioning fuel sensor/instrument so pilot get the false reading in multiple instruments.

 

Like reading that there is 1500kg fuel, but in reality it is <300kg so pilot does not prepare to do emergency landing in time.

[Fri13]

You can drop the undercarriage (Helium filled blow down bottle) and flap the rudder (manual reversion) around a bit when you run out of engine. The other flying controls are all powered purely from the hydraulic pumps connected to the engine.

 

Isn't there a hydraulic pressure gauge somewhere in cockpit?

As like ie in Su-25T, once your engines or hydraulics are gone, you can try to do a emergency landing and evaluate the possibilities by keeping eye of the pressure level and minimizing all control operations to landing flare and breaking.

[some1]

The main reason that I can see that can't be fault of pilot, is malfunctioning fuel sensor/instrument so pilot get the false reading in multiple instruments.

 

Like reading that there is 1500kg fuel, but in reality it is <300kg so pilot does not prepare to do emergency landing in time.

 

In combat scenario, it can happen most likely because of longer loitering time over target in support of the ground troops who are under attack. In such situation, it's hard to call that pilot fault.

 

This or air refuelling system malfunction as airplanes like Harrier refuel in air almost for every combat mission, often twice. That may be caused by mechanical failure or organizational cock-up (tanker too far, unavailable, has less fuel to spare, etc.)

 

As for civilation aviation, Wikipedia has a list of all engine out situations :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airline_flights_that_required_gliding

[firmek]

:lol: i like your comment! but unfortunate things happen , there are many instances where both commercial and military planes run out of fuel, sometimes mechanical failure, ground crew mistake , or just pilots like me who do not pay attention to fuel gauges :)

 

+1.

Many things can happen, examples that came immediatelly to my mind:

Gimli Glider - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider - run out of fuel due to unit conversion mistake during fuel ammount calculation.

Flight 254 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varig_Flight_254 - many mistakes, a navigation error, pilots making a confirmation bias mistake and on top of that being busy listening to the futball match audition.

Finally the Harrier Alraigo incident - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alraigo_incident