SAMs

[Aeroscout]

this is really actually a question for Ironhand.

 

I watched Ironhand's toutorial on defeating the strelas and realized that SAMs have to reload. However, does this apply to all sams and even ships? this would make Anti ship strikes with out the Kh-41 alot easier.

 

Thanks

[Anytime]

Ticonderoga has 128 cells for SM-2s? You might run out of fuel before they need to reload. Not to mention the sea sparrows now replaced by the Evolved Sea Sparrow. Taking out a AAW destroyer or cruiser should be next to impossible without a very well coordinated attack.

[GGTharos]

Actually, the Tico in LO is basically a sitting duck. We're hoping to fix that.

 

Right now, SAMs engage at far longer ranges than what's good for them where enemy tactical aircraft are concerned, and they have a 'floor' to their engagement which isn't necessarily realistic.

[tflash]

In LO, your best shot at a surface warship is with an ARM missile. In fact, this is often also the tactics IRL. The marineflieger Torado units did first HARM attack, then Kormoran, then bombs.

[159th_Viper]

In LO, your best shot at a surface warship is with an ARM missile.

 

Correct - Albatros usually easily enough taken care of with a pair of 25MPU's. With the Tico, a co-ordinated attack with the T-Frog first firing KH-58's followed by a KH-41 strike with SU-33's yields success.

[Pilotasso]

Actually, the Tico in LO is basically a sitting duck. We're hoping to fix that.

 

Right now, SAMs engage at far longer ranges than what's good for them where enemy tactical aircraft are concerned, and they have a 'floor' to their engagement which isn't necessarily realistic.

 

Ticos are old news... we would like to see Arkley burkes and Daring type 45's. That would rock. Wohohoho :D

[GGTharos]

Don't count'em out. Tico's have gone through some pretty interesting upgrades.

[Aeroscout]

Ok, that's it for ships. But what about other SAMs?

[EricJ]

Well you're long to medium range ones have the ability to shoot down your missiles at extreme ranges (a la Flanker 1.5). The S-300PS will shoot at least two to three missiles (5V55) at one missile. The Kub/Buk generally act the same, so to compare them might be just range differences. I haven't tried the S-300V yet, but methinks if you manage to get within 20km, you should be able to pop it. IguanaKing talks about 15,000 - 16,000 ft with an A-10 and Mavs so that works against I would guess Buks(?). The main thing you have to realize is that the closer and lower for right now, is the only way to go. Generally speaking, when you fire at a longer range, it has a high launch flight profile (maximize speed and yadda yadda) so therefore able to be intercepted by the SAM's missiles. So the only thing that has worked so far is getting within 20km and firing from that distance. It gives it a flatter and a better angle (i.e. it doesn't do a terminal pop up maneuver) to allow a general one shot, one kill. Of course that puts you within the range of any long to medium ranged SAM, so it's not for the faint of heart. I've guesstimated for the Kub/Buk 20km at 50-100m will give you a good solid kill (lower and you may "hit" the radar system) against the targeted radar, while 20km at like 15-25m for the S-300PS. The Tor and probably the Tunguska can intercept slow moving (along with the Strela-10 and Shilka) missiles, so a Kh-25MPU should work, as well as a Kh-58. Anything slower for SEAD work and it'll be shot down.

[Anytime]

Yes, with E2Cs and CEC those long range shot should have a much higher PK. Thought they basically had the same combat system and radars as the Arleigh Burke's anyway.

 

 

Don't count'em out. Tico's have gone through some pretty interesting upgrades.

[D-Scythe]

Yes, with E2Cs and CEC those long range shot should have a much higher PK. Thought they basically had the same combat system and radars as the Arleigh Burke's anyway.

 

Well, they have 4 SPG illumination radars as opposed to 3, so the Ticonderoga should be able to guide more SM-2s onto their targets simultaneously than the Burke's can. Both are also starting to be retrofitted with short-range RAM missile launchers in place of CIWS I think.

[EricJ]

I'm dropping a little lower now, between 14,000 and 15,000. It keeps me above the Strelas, AAA, and Iglas. I don't mind being seen by the radar-guided SAM systems, because I can at least see them and know when they are shooting at me. I haven't quite got a good tactic worked out for dealing with the S-300, but I'm working on it. SNIP

 

Well oddly enough I've never been hit with Stingers, or even Iglas, at least at ranges they can hit me. Maybe it's because I'm in my -33, but in a sense that shouldn't make too much of a difference but it's strange that I usually don't concern myself with them anymore.

 

As for the Buk.. yeah pretty much you can dance but if you're playing in the mountains he likes to wait until you get at a good point where it'd be almost impossible to dodge, then when you get the launch, you dive towards the ground. It's worked out on one occasion though.

[GGTharos]

It's probably because you're flying too fast for the MANPADS to cope with you, which is both realistic and unrealistic.

They can't cope with supersonic aircraft, and fairly fast aircraft could just as well take'em by surrpise, enough so that they won't have time to fire before you fly by.

 

It's unrealistic because technically it isn't likely you'd be supersonic, and secondly, it's unlilkely you'd get to 'surprise' all of them.

[EricJ]

Nah I was doing some flying in the valleys east of Suhumi and the speeds I was flying at werent' really excessive. And the aspects I set them at (they were even setup to "ambush" me) would have guaranteed even the dumbest gunner to at least fire a missile, but no, they fired quite late. That and probably the odd flare bundles I dropped, but then again I always didn't do that.

[Aeroscout]

Ok, what i'm ultimataly getting at is: How does one lead a sucessful ground attack in the A-10 Su-27 or Su-33 against targets guarded by medium and long range SAMs? And dont tell me "fly low" I usually fly in Crimeia, with the wide open fields...

[GGTharos]

Nah I was doing some flying in the valleys east of Suhumi and the speeds I was flying at werent' really excessive. And the aspects I set them at (they were even setup to "ambush" me) would have guaranteed even the dumbest gunner to at least fire a missile, but no, they fired quite late. That and probably the odd flare bundles I dropped, but then again I always didn't do that.

 

 

In that case, I blame the hiring process :D

[GGTharos]

Ok, what i'm ultimataly getting at is: How does one lead a sucessful ground attack in the A-10 Su-27 or Su-33 against targets guarded by medium and long range SAMs? And dont tell me "fly low" I usually fly in Crimeia, with the wide open fields...

 

Answer: One does not. Or more to the point, one *should* not. LO still makes it possible to successfuly do so, both due to SAM constraints on low-altitude engagemetns and typical, poor deployment of SAM defenses by the mission designer. The medium range SAM should not be your only problem: It's there to push you down into the SHORAD and vice-versa!

[EricJ]

Well yeah, really that's how you do it, you gotta move low and fast. Even the "slow" A-10 it's possible to take at least the Kub/Buk head on (its not fun though, trust me) but the longer ranged... just have to try and fly under the minimum height (S-30PS is 25m, while the -300V is 15m) or if you can, head for the hills and play "hey shoot me!" then making sure a missile is on the way, dive behind the hill, and repeat. You can do that to any medium, or long ranged without buring a whole lot of fuel. The tactic IK described is what's called "Bait and Kill". You are essentially playing tag with the missile system. Get it to shoot at you, then head outside it's missile effectiveness radius. Depending on the distance you may have to use afterburner, but wouldn't recommend it if you got the A-10. Su-25T if you feel like it.

 

ECM is actually worth something, but I've noticed Sorbitsya suffers burn-through at ~17-20km, and I figure the ALQ-131 will be roughly the same, just have to test it sometime later on to be sure.

 

Unfortunately the main problem is that the SAMs are coded to shoot down (a major major bug in itself) even high speed ARMs. However, much in reality, the Patriot may be able to shoot down a Kh-31p, but then again I highly doubt it, even the S-300PS and -V, the intercept angles are fairly easy, but the converging trajectories would render interception useless (speed being the primary factor) wheareas the HARM? Got me, but it could still work.

 

And GGTharos is right, the old North Vietnamese tactic during the Vietnam War was to fire SA-2s to shoot them down. If that didn't work, then the US aircraft would be forced lower into a ZSU trap. Then again, if you know it's there, and see it, the ZSU can be avoided, just jink. SAMs might be a little different but that's another thing.

[GGTharos]

Unfortunately the main problem is that the SAMs are coded to shoot down (a major major bug in itself) even high speed ARMs. However, much in reality, the Patriot may be able to shoot down a Kh-31p, but then again I highly doubt it, even the S-300PS and -V, the intercept angles are fairly easy, but the converging trajectories would render interception useless (speed being the primary factor) wheareas the HARM? Got me, but it could still work.

 

Here you're wrong. I did in fact run into some declassed info, which, despite the blacked-out sentences, quite clearly indicated that not only the Patriot CAN shoot down ARMs, but its crews are TRAINED to do so.

 

In the same document, it turned out that a number of times, aircraft had been mis - identified as incoming ARMs, resulting in certain Blue on Blue incidents. This particular case was relevant to the Tornado shoot down in GW1, IIRC.

 

Oh, and, by the way, it turns out that a 'high speed' ARM isn't all that 'high speed' by the time it gets near its target, typically.

 

And GGTharos is right, the old North Vietnamese tactic during the Vietnam War was to fire SA-2s to shoot them down. If that didn't work, then the US aircraft would be forced lower into a ZSU trap. Then again, if you know it's there, and see it, the ZSU can be avoided, just jink. SAMs might be a little different but that's another thing.

 

Yep! :) Just remember, a MANPADS is nastier than a ZSU, and the SA-2 bears no comparison to even a HAWK or KUB as far as SAMs go ... those two systems were EXTREMELY effective in '67. You don't even want to go up against a Patriot or S300.

[Kula66]

Unfortunately the main problem is that the SAMs are coded to shoot down (a major major bug in itself) even high speed ARMs. However, much in reality, the Patriot may be able to shoot down a Kh-31p, but then again I highly doubt it, even the S-300PS and -V, the intercept angles are fairly easy, but the converging trajectories would render interception useless (speed being the primary factor) wheareas the HARM? Got me, but it could still work.

 

Well, they've had a go at wobbling bits of Scuds in the past, so I would think an ARM would be much slower and easier!

[Ironhand]

this is really actually a question for Ironhand.

 

I watched Ironhand's tutorial on defeating the strelas and realized that SAMs have to reload. However, does this apply to all sams and even ships? this would make Anti ship strikes with out the Kh-41 a lot easier.

Obviously, I'm coming quite late to the party. :) While it's currently fairly easy to run the short-range land based systems out of missiles (due not only to poor mission design but also to poor AI logic) you will usually run out of go-juice long before you run the long-range systems into the ground with that tactic. And ships in the sim will feel like they have missiles in unlimited supply.

 

This sim's SAM systems waste far too many missiles on low-percentage shots which is why you can be so successful baiting short-range SAM systems. But, then again, most mission designers aren't utilizing the ADA assets as they would be used, anyway. For example, in the old Soviet order of battle, the ADA battery covering a motorized rifle or a tank division would consist of two ADA platoons. One platoon would consist of 4 SA-9s (Strela-1) and the other would be 4 ZSU-23-4s (Shilka). So there would be 8 ADA assets for you to deal with, not one or two. And, more recently, those SA-9s were being replaced by SA-13s (Strela-10s) and the ADA batteries transformed into ADA battalions consisting of 6 SA-13s and 6 ZSU-23-4s.

 

Ok, what i'm ultimataly getting at is: How does one lead a sucessful ground attack in the A-10 Su-27 or Su-33 against targets guarded by medium and long range SAMs? And dont tell me "fly low" I usually fly in Crimea, with the wide open fields...

In the sim, you do it by flying low. :) It doesn't matter if you're flying across tabletop terrain. It also doesn't matter whether or not you get launched against. When you figure the missile is getting close, get lower. The missile will fly itself into the ground aiming for where it expects you to be when it arrives--which would put it underground (this missile behavior wouldn't happen in real life).

 

In reality, as others have already told you, you shouldn't be going up against those systems directly in those aircraft. Doing so would amount to a suicide mission. In the sim, savvy mission designers can also make it a suicide mission by including proper ADA defenses.

 

Rich

[EricJ]

Well, they've had a go at wobbling bits of Scuds in the past, so I would think an ARM would be much slower and easier!

 

That's true maybe, but then again, there's no such evidence it can, yet anyways. It'd have a good chance against a HARM, but a ramjet powered missile moves quite fast so it'd have some expected difficulty.

 

As for the A-10.... I don't really have too much to complain about it really, it's far better than the Su-25T (not because of SFM vs. AFM) in capability, and has far more energy for the maneuvers necessary.

[159th_Viper]

Ok, what i'm ultimataly getting at is: How does one lead a sucessful ground attack in the A-10 Su-27 or Su-33 against targets guarded by medium and long range SAMs? And dont tell me "fly low" I usually fly in Crimeia, with the wide open fields...

 

You make sure your Wingman is driving a T-Frog ;). KH-58's to knock out the Long Range SAM's, 25MPU's for the medium range systems and AT-9's for the short range Air Defences and all your problems are sorted.:)

[GGTharos]

That's true maybe, but then again, there's no such evidence it can, yet anyways. It'd have a good chance against a HARM, but a ramjet powered missile moves quite fast so it'd have some expected difficulty.

 

A SCUD re-enters at mach 3+. It also terminates at similar speeds, and Patriots have been swatting'em down lately. I don't think a ramjet powered missile will be an issue.

 

Especially since the typical Patriot test target is...another Patriot ... moving at mach 4.

[Groove]

A Reentry Vehicle is an issue, but thats different speed and different story ^^.

 

Here is a track of me in a Su-25 vs. a TOR M1 system:

 

http://home.wtal.de/groove/dodging_tor.rar