The biggest mistake in military aviation history?

[GGTharos]

You should go read up some on missile guidance and LPI radars ...

[Anytime]

Some of them may know :P

 

At least he admits he doesn't know a lot about it. Others here go the opposite direction making statements like they know something is fact. The truth lies in between.

[fretwear]

Biggest mistake in aviation history? Hmmm, no I think sending Flogger E's up against two F-14 Tomcats might be way up there. Or mebbe putting bombs on an ME 262...:doh:

[Anytime]

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/

[FanBoy2006.01]

Frost1e

How dare you accuse me of being a fanbois! ;)

 

 

P.S. I don't think that if Hitler won the Battle of Britain it would have been a good thing.

 

 

=4c= Hajduk Veljko

 

 

If stealth is not as important as you say, why are the Russians trying to develop their own stealth fighter?

 

 

I read articles in which F15 pilots say that they didn't even detect the F 22's that “shot them down”.

 

 

A South African fighter pilot (And test pilot for our Grippen program.) seems to be singing the praises for the F 22.

 

 

AWACS and datalink gives the F 22 “look first” capability (If you ignore it's RWR and it's claimed radar capabilities. As for shooting first. He who shoots first, shoots first.

[tflash]

It’s funny that you said that LPI radar can be detected yet somehow that does not matter when it comes to stealth? If it can be detected, than it is not "so" stealth is it?

 

R-27EP is designed to go after airborne radars, and while stealth designers think about stealth, anti-radiation missile designers think about radars.

 

Since no one sems to have read my post I will quote myself ;):

 

Stealth in the F-22 is the combination of new sensors, new engine technology, new materials, new coating, new aerodynamic insights, new mettalurgy, new electronics, new radio etc. etc.

 

To give one example: it took the US ten years and much more powerful computers to go from the limited aerodynamics of F-117 to the smooth lines of F-22.

 

It is not something like the inlet duct separator, that anyone could copy once you saw a jet having it. Even more so, the engineers could also make an estimate *how long it would take* for an adversary, with its industrial potential, to match this combined performance.

 

Stealth is a combined effect, not one "feature". You cannot take an aircraft and "add stealth". You also cannot add a tool and so "beat stealth".

 

To make an F-22 sufficiently detectable and engageable you will need to do very computing-intensive efforts in a wide range of domains.

 

The project was calculated to have a sufficient time advantage. They knew it would take the competition a sufficiently long time to come up with rival technologies to create an advantage gap. That is the whole point of defense industry: it's not about a capability, it's about your capabilities in relation to those of the competition.

 

Just face it: There is currently no answer to F-22.

[FanBoy2006.01]

Since no one sems to have read my post I will quote myself ;): .............

 

Just face it: There is currently no answer to F-22.

 

You wrote a great post. Probably the best one in this whole thread.

But my posts are totally my own opinion and yours are cold hard facts, so I did not know how to respond. I think your post realy speaks for itself.

Most people probably just nodded in approval without thinking to respond.

[Pilotasso]

I strongly disagree. Because, to “engage opposing fighters” the “stealth” must come out of the “stealth” condition. Therefore, the stealth itself, does not provide ability to engage opposing fighters without their knowledge.

 

The use of other aircraft for searching simply means that those other aircrafts are primary targets of the R-27EP missiles.

 

By “look first” do you mean turn the radar on first? If yeas, then F-22 is “seen first” and the R-27EP maybe flying towards his nose even without him knowing it. Hunter becomes hunted.

 

If by “look first” you meant some search sensors other then radar, then please provide the type of the sensor you are talking about.

 

You better read some more without your well known bias. Get a clue m8.

How do you account for current exercises where f-15/16's get news their dead without a blip on either their radars or RWR's?

 

Wheres your sources saying otherwise?

 

 

I strongly disagree. Because, to “engage opposing fighters” the “stealth” must come out of the “stealth” condition. Therefore, the stealth itself, does not provide ability to engage opposing fighters without their knowledge.

 

The use of other aircraft for searching simply means that those other aircrafts are primary targets of the R-27EP missiles.

 

By “look first” do you mean turn the radar on first? If yeas, then F-22 is “seen first” and the R-27EP maybe flying towards his nose even without him knowing it. Hunter becomes hunted.

 

If by “look first” you meant some search sensors other then radar, then please provide the type of the sensor you are talking about.

 

Don’t get me wrong, I do believe that F-22 is among the best fighter airplanes in the world.

 

geesh! LOL

 

R-27EP's are vaporware and in theory even they are very poor missiles for 3 reasons:

1)They will miss if target swiches radar off, or if each planes interleaves their radar data to each others planes.

2)LPI means that no current generation of signal interceptors are able to well... intecept it much less a simple miniature seeker on a missile.

LPI are not impossible to intercept, but not by current fighter mounted equipment.

3) all modern new GEN planes can detect incomming missiles, because there are proximity projectiles detection devices wich I beleive are coupled with AESA radars. The Raptor will never take an EP in the face because its not in service and because its weapons are more like to hit first before the target can think having the nerve of firing back such a low PK missile.

 

You seem to be very convinced that very simple and cheap devices made in the east can just surpass hardware that had cost multi billion dollars of the best dev resources and technology, every single time. So in your mind your ideal means to overcome the advances of new fighters come through the use of techologies to catch previous generations of fighters...

 

I think you should realy consider some more common sense before saying you can beat anyone with older technology seemingly no matter what.

[nscode]

There IS a very simple and cheap way to overcome the F-22.. Just walk up to it with an RPG while it's on the ground :D

[pschelchshorn]

I think the military police is going to have a problem with that...Including their K-9s

 

Flip

[Groove]

A Anti-material rifle will suffice. Thats why the brithish use counter-sniper teams on their air-bases in `stan and iraq. US will deploy them too this year afaik.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

If stealth is not as important as you say, why are the Russians trying to develop their own stealth fighter?

I never said stealth is not important. I keep saying F-22 is among the best fighter airplanes in the world.

 

I read articles in which F15 pilots say that they didn't even detect the F 22's that “shot them down”.

You are listening to salesman?

 

A South African fighter pilot (And test pilot for our Grippen program.) seems to be singing the praises for the F 22.

I also say F-22 is an excellent aircraft.

 

AWACS and datalink gives the F 22 “look first” capability (If you ignore it's RWR and it's claimed radar capabilities.

AWACS and data link insures that AWACS will see first, not F-22. Data link is so that the AWACS, who saw it first, can tell it to F-22. AWACS will be the first to target in such hypothetical situation.

 

As for shooting first. He who shoots first, shoots first.

There I agree with you!

[GGTharos]

Or just get your finka and slash the tires! ;)

 

There IS a very simple and cheap way to overcome the F-22.. Just walk up to it with an RPG while it's on the ground :D

[RvETito]

Once more I came to realise that if one wants to start 10+ pages thread it should contain "F-22 is..." or "F-22 is not...". How many times really????

 

To answer the question- I don't think the F-22 is the biggest mistake in military aviation history. Period.

[Groove]

For 100+ pages following words must be a part of the topic: F-117, SA-6, stealth, lol, Serbia, Clinton

[Frostie]

The biggest mistake in aviation history was the collapse of the USSR , in them days the US had someone to fear and they would tread carefully now though they feel supremely superior to everyone and are chomping at the bit to show it.:cry:

[Prophet]

Whats that have to do with aviation?

[Rhen]

The biggest mistake in aviation history was the collapse of the USSR and the Berlin wall, in them days the US had someone to fear and they would tread carefully now though they feel supremely superior to everyone and are chomping at the bit to show it.:cry:

Remind you of someone?

 

 

:shocking: Oh, yes. :noexpression: Wholeheartedly agree with that. :noexpression: I'd much rather live under the threat of a nuclear holocaust. I'm sure there's loads of people from the former DDR who'd much rather live behind the Berlin wall than in a united Germany. :no_sad:

 

Well that post most've came from the bowels of your mind...

[FanBoy2006.01]

=4c= Hajduk Veljko

 

 

Yeah, you are right. I read the part where you said the F 22 is good. It just didn't register.

 

 

I think the F 22 is the best fighter in the world for BVR combat.

It is a great dogfighter.

According to the stuff I had read it has limited air-to-ground capability, but then again, if correctly employed, it can drop bombs till the cows come home and will not take any losses. Just stay out of reach of the greatly reduced engagement zones of radar guided SAMs.

I hear (From the forums.) that it has a reduced IR signature as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I am listening to the salesman there. But I think that most military pilots are patriots. Why would they lie to protect the F 22 if it is a failure? So that defense contractors can make money?

Fighter pilots are usually cocky so say you “smoke” a F 22 during training will you keep it quiet once you get a couple of well deserved drinks down your throat?

 

 

When South Africa got our Mirage F1's, they lost the majority of dogfights against our Mirage III's (Before they learned to fight in the vertical.). It was not kept secret though.

 

 

The footage of the F 22 in the sights of a Super Hornet is all over the Internet

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I agree whack the AWACS!

But AWACS have very long radar coverage. I know Russia is developing a missile (Or missiles.) that are designed to take down AWACS aircraft, but you are going to have to cross fighter-infested airspace to launch on it.

[Rhen]

War is hell... well not anymore, for some. War is... a police action? Nation building? Arguably - getting back to the premise of this thread, the thing that's the biggest mistake in military aviation history is the removal of guns from fighters and the lack of training in BFM & realistic engagement scenarios. That did more harm than proliferating stealth aircraft or blind reliance on an air force to accomplish the goal of holding territory - which requires boots on the ground.

 

With (no) respect to you armchair quarterbacks who's hindsight is 20:20, all I can say is that the wind that blows from your holes has all the intelligence, odor, and warmth of a fart.

 

You get all your insights on how air combat works from a flawed game. You have no concept of what it's like to take a 30 ton piece of metal, strap it to your ass, to go out and do battle with a similarly equipped individual. If you did, you'd realize how painful it is to look at what you post and assume there's intelligent life behind your thoughts.

 

Fine, flame me. I don't give a damn. Hopefully the political opinions contained in this thread will close it.

[Frostie]

 

Well that post most've came from the bowels of your mind...

Totally agree with the Berlinwall part bit that was just misplaced.

I was more concerned with the reduction of the Russian air force.

[pschelchshorn]

have we mentioned the environment yet? :D

 

Flip

[Prophet]

have we mentioned the environment yet? :D

 

Flip

 

I think the F22 exhaust is effecting global warming. :pilotfly:

[tflash]

War is hell... well not anymore, for some. War is... a police action? Nation building? Arguably - getting back to the premise of this thread, the thing that's the biggest mistake in military aviation history is the removal of guns from fighters and the lack of training in BFM & realistic engagement scenarios. That did more harm than proliferating stealth aircraft or blind reliance on an air force to accomplish the goal of holding territory - which requires boots on the ground.

 

With (no) respect to you armchair quarterbacks who's hindsight is 20:20, all I can say is that the wind that blows from your holes has all the intelligence, odor, and warmth of a fart.

 

You get all your insights on how air combat works from a flawed game. You have no concept of what it's like to take a 30 ton piece of metal, strap it to your ass, to go out and do battle with a similarly equipped individual. If you did, you'd realize how painful it is to look at what you post and assume there's intelligent life behind your thoughts.

 

Fine, flame me. I don't give a damn. Hopefully the political opinions contained in this thread will close it.

 

Rhen, I think this rant was unsollicited for. Everyone on this board knows that we are armchair pilots since that is our hobby and the very reason we are on this forum.

 

You could as well charge us with the fellony of being forum posters.

 

But as usual, we very highly value your contribution, and I like your view that "Arguably - getting back to the premise of this thread, the thing that's the biggest mistake in military aviation history is the removal of guns from fighters and the lack of training in BFM & realistic engagement scenarios. That did more harm than proliferating stealth aircraft or blind reliance on an air force to accomplish the goal of holding territory - which requires boots on the ground."

[S77th-konkussion]

I think Rhen is right on the money- and I salute him for it.