MK82 snake eyes CCIP mode very hard

[blast]

Hi guys,

 

I'm trying to use snake eyes in CCIP mode but it's nearly impossible or too dangerous to drop them.

 

I dive on the target at 30° angle with a speed of ~450 knots but the launch authorization (= the small cross on the hud) appears too late.

 

How do you manage MK82 snake eyes in CCIP?

[Wags]

As they are hard-set to HD, you need to be very low at release. They are not slicks.

[IvanK]

But they should be selectable HD or FF :)

 

 

[lemoen]

But they should be selectable HD or FF :)

 

 

 

 

I think those have not opened yet, the Mk82AIR is selectable (ballute), Mk82SE always opens the fins I think.

[IvanK]

Tail HD wires are not that long :) Stores page has drag selection options. In the early days of Hornet operation there were issues with Snakeye Tail retaining bands impacting with the Stab leading edges when released in HD mode ... one of the reasons the ballute tail was favoured.

 

 

On a side note in peacetime in some operators there were restrictions on HD V Slick fusing. If RET was selected but failed and the bomb went slick and it was Dual fused then the safety drag switch in the tail fuse wasoverridden by the nose fuse ... Frag envelope compromised .... Balfang .... Martin Baker let down ensued :)

Edited June 4, 2018 by IvanK

[QuiGon]

Hi guys,

 

I'm trying to use snake eyes in CCIP mode but it's nearly impossible or too dangerous to drop them.

 

I dive on the target at 30° angle with a speed of ~450 knots but the launch authorization (= the small cross on the hud) appears too late.

 

How do you manage MK82 snake eyes in CCIP?

I think they should be dropped at level flight (not in a dive) at very low altitude.

Edited June 5, 2018 by QuiGon

[Papa Spardy]

MK-15s definitely have pilot option. I think wags was saying the the option wasn't implemented yet. The wire is connected to the rear ZRF switch. Which is a solenoid that opens or closes depending if the pilot wants it or not.

Now for things like the m904 mechanical nose fuze. those wires are run and connect to the positive arm latch and the pilot get no say in what happens when the bomb is dropped.

[Wags]

Of course IvanK, it just has not been implemented yet.

[arteedecco]

First... Hornet = Pure joy. It is just awesome. Congrats to the whole team. I've been just thrilled flying it since the release. THANK YOU! Incredible detail and the sounds... love it.

 

Okay, on topic. I've also been trying to successfully implement the SnakeEye via CCIP and Auto and am also a bit baffled by the appropriate profile to fly. Watching the legacy footage from drops in Vietnam it looks like it's a pretty low, fast, shallow (or even flat?) profile meant to give the pilot plenty of time to escape the frag envelope.

 

That said in the F/A-18C early release I'm only getting the reticle at the very last moment while in a steep. nose low attitude (relative to the proximity of the dirt). In essence it seems like the computer is calculating based on FF despite RET design of the SnakEye munition.

 

I can successfully drop using Auto from a level, low, and speedy profile, but I've got the big "X" blaring on the HUD the whole time and no matter what I do I can't seem to get a profile where that is gone. I guess with Auto I could fly higher, but what alt AGL is that?

 

[EDIT]I assumed you should be able to drop from 750 - 1000 AGL (or lower) and 450-500 knots?

e.g. https://youtu.be/P8B_uDCxhM0?t=3m19s[/EDIT]

 

I also tried a traditional steep, moderate-high altitude profile using CCIP and it works, with you getting sufficient time to see the reticle before having to come OFF and egress.

 

So maybe my understanding of usage is wrong... or perhaps the system is still being tweaked since we're in early release.

 

Anyhow... would love to get a vid on proper usage of the SnakeEye and some description of the assumed profiles and usages.

 

Thanks for all the amazing content and vids already published. Just an amazing release and module. Can't say enough.

 

Cheers!!!

Edited June 4, 2018 by arteedecco

[fencible]

I think they should be dropped at level flight (not in a dive) at very low altitude.

 

I agree with QuiGon - a load of 10 snake-eyes dropped from level flight at 500 knots from 400 feet in manual mode, retarded (of course!) with about 80 ms ripple and instantaneous fusing is highly effective against soft area targets. I've been testing these low-level runs off-line and also on some servers. If your target is in a flat area you can be on top of it without any warning and there is no time for their AAA to react effectively.

 

It's not too hard to guesstimate when to release, and practice helps. It makes for an exciting ride, as long as you have a good idea of where your targets are going to be. At that speed and altitude there is no room for adjustments once you arrive. Best to set a waypoint on the target or have it marked with smoke.

 

I've found that a load of snake-eyes fused for instantaneous burst are much more destructive than cluster bombs against softer targets (in DCS world).

 

For arteedecco: they used simple reticle sights in Viet Nam - like those of the F5E in DCS World. I recommend 'Phantom Over Vietnam' by John Trotti for a highly detailed account of techniques and procedures. He flew Phantoms for the US Marine Corps. He describes one pop-up attack as a hard climb from low level to 3,200 feet, rolling onto target into a 20 degree dive with sight set to 87 mils, and release at 2,000 feet at 400 knots with pull-out at 1200 feet. Of course that takes extremely precise flying and careful study of waypoints and target.

 

I have found that for CCIP runs with snakes in the F18C that the faster you go, the easier to keep the CCIP ground reticle out front of you where you can see it, not under your nose, and keep your velocity vector well above the target (not coming from under the target as in a conventional run with fixed reticle sight). This gives you more time before you get too low. But I'd just go with slicks - 82s or 83s for CCIP runs.

Edited June 4, 2018 by fencible

[arteedecco]

@fencible Great! Thanks for the tips. Yeah, that makes sense they didn't have (?)/use CCIP type delivery back in Veitnam. I haven't messed w/ the Manual bombsight yet. The question still remains... is the frag area "X" warning on the HUD still valid for Snakes when in CCIP?

 

I'll try faster passes with higher velocity vector (aka, velocity vector beyond target) and fly reticle onto target as opposed to the traditional method for FF delivery you mentioned (coming from under target like I'm used to).

 

Thanks for those tips. Gives me some good things to try!

 

o7

Edited June 4, 2018 by arteedecco

[fencible]

@fencible Great! Thanks for the tips. Yeah, that makes sense they didn't have (?)/use CCIP type delivery back in Veitnam. I haven't messed w/ the Manual bombsight yet. The question still remains... is the frag area "X" warning on the HUD still valid for Snakes when in CCIP?

 

I'll try faster passes with higher velocity vector (aka, velocity vector beyond target) and fly reticle onto target as opposed to the traditional method for FF delivery you mentioned (coming from under target like I'm used to).

 

Thanks for those tips. Gives me some good things to try!

 

o7

 

The big 'X' on your CCIP HUD means that your weapons computer calculates you to currently be inside the lethal zone of where your own munitions will hit the ground, and your plane will probably get hit by fragments and/or shock wave blast from your own bombs training off if you release now. You are not well advised to ignore it. I found that out the hard way.

Edited June 4, 2018 by fencible

[arteedecco]

@fencible did about 10 runs trying it all and cannot get a combination where I get reticle “+” without “X”.

 

Only way I’ve found is traditional bombing run. I even did a drop at Mach 1+ to see if prodigious speed would get me the reticle, but nope. Below about 2,500 AGL unless I’m in a 30 degree nose down or more I never get LA reticle without the “X”.

[RShackleford]

You need to be dropping in CCRP mode rather than CCIP, or have a CCIP mode where if you hold the pickle and the reticle is HUD limited that it holds the bomb at the bottom of the HUD where you pickled and basically becomes CCRP from there. Now sure how the F-18 does it, but you aren't going to get a non-HUD limited pipper with high drag option unless you're pretty much pointing straight at the ground, which defeats the purpose of the high drag bomb.

[arteedecco]

@Rshackleford, interesting. F/A-18C early release at least has Auto, CCIP, and Manual.

 

Auto is pretty much CCRP since you mark a target and then fly to it while holding down “pickle” until the system releases automatically. Can try that to see if it gives “X” or not, but the trouble I see there is designating target in advance. Of course as the release version approaches I believe we get more advanced features and targeting will have more robust options like TGP, which would allow for easier stand off target designation at range.

 

So Auto and Man for high drag.

[Chrinik]

I just did some drops with snakeeyes, 1600feet agl, 700 kts. Got the pipper out infront of me with the warning cross of course...but snakeeyes provide plenty of time to pull out of harms way after the drop.

 

There is a good 3 seconds between pickle and impact, at that speed I just pull up and am at 3000feet before they impact...

 

I do not know what the problem is using them in CCIP?

 

https://imgur.com/a/C8ozZNn

Edited June 5, 2018 by Chrinik

[blast]

i guess the best is to not use snake eyes in CCIP since we don't have the cross reticle on the hud due to the very high speed required to drop them.

 

 

Auto mode (aka CCRP) is the mode to use with snake eyes.

[Dangerman]

Retarded bombs such as snakeye (USA) or HEMC with 117 tail (UK) are designed to be dropped in shallow dive or layout attack in high threat environment. Shallow dive is for acquisition after a shallow pop up to acquire after ingress at extremely low level.

 

This was the staple delivery technique during my serve in RAF in 80's-90's when the big bad Warsaw Pact would shoot you down over the German battlefield if you were above 100ft.

 

You definitely want to be less than 10 deg dive (for UK 1000lb bomb..not sure about snakeye) ....and use the "pass height" bombing technique. anything over that dive angle, use slick tails and dive-toss., high angle dive or Loft...which is difficult if you have a high threat environment or don't have air superiority,

 

A true test of situation awareness is leading a 6 ship armed with 4 x 1000lb retarded bombs for a hard TOT in high threat environment when you don't have air superiority. Target study and effective IP to Target planning is the key for late and limited target exposure.

 

Further to that...CCRP (named as phase1 bombing on a Tornado) needs target acquisition and moving the mark at a busy time with v v v short target exposure time. CCIP needs target acquisition and simple manoevre of the jet and the Bomb fall line through target. "phase2/phase3" bombing on the Tornado was a half and half solution that put the mark on the target for an accurate height sensor to look at the range whilst you commit the attack in the style of CCRP

Edited June 5, 2018 by Dangerman
spolling mistooks

[fencible]

@Dangerman: - thanks very much for your comments - always a thrill to hear from a real fighter pilot.

[RShackleford]

Auto is pretty much CCRP

 

Yup, each aircraft has their own name for different things. Like in a viper or hawg they have CCIP (continuously computing impact point) whereas the strike eagle has CDIP (continuously displayed impact point.) It's literally the same thing with a different name, as CCRP and Auto (F-15Es also call it Auto) is the same.

 

A true test of situation awareness is leading a 6 ship armed with 4 x 1000lb retarded bombs for a hard TOT in high threat environment when you don't have air superiority. Target study and effective IP to Target planning is the key for late and limited target exposure.

 

Further to that...CCRP (named as phase1 bombing on a Tornado) needs target acquisition and moving the mark at a busy time with v v v short target exposure time. CCIP needs target acquisition and simple manoevre of the jet and the Bomb fall line through target. "phase2/phase3" bombing on the Tornado was a half and half solution that put the mark on the target for an accurate height sensor to look at the range whilst you commit the attack in the style of CCRP

 

Yup, 6-ship going through is difficult, especially if all the targets are in the same area. Need plans so your bombs aren't going to frag the trailing jet, and if it is LGBs you need a plan to have either near-simultaneous impacts or spacing enough for smoke to clear for follow-on bombs.

 

Low altitude CCRP used to be pretty difficult in pre-GPS days because even though you could designate on coordinates, it might not be accurate after drift. Strike Eagles are able to do it really well with A2G radar using offset designations. If you have Cat1 coordinates on the target and Cat1 coordinates on a tower that you can see on radar from low altitude really well, just make an offset designation on the tower and it will update your nav system and the designation together for an accurate hit. Only useful today for GPS jamming environments, but still pretty cool ability.

[TheBamse]

Semi-necro but just wanted to check if I'm doing things incorrectly or not with the SE's.

 

So, this is my 2 setups for 2 different tests;

2x Mk82 SE set with AUTO, MNOSE, FF, single bomb per pickle. Waypoint designation. 500kts, 14000ft. I fly fairly straight and fairly level. Bombs hit several miles behind/long of designation.

 

Same setup but with CCIP set (and ofc no waypoint desig). To even see the cross at the end of the DIL/BFL I need to do more than a 60 degree dive.

 

This tells me that no matter what DRAG you set the SE's to they are always calculated for a RET-release in the HUD.

In regards to the latest OB fix; "Mk-82 Snakeye bomb always releases retarded - fixed", so remaining "bug"/not completely implemented or intended behavior? Has anyone else tried this? :)

Edited July 5, 2018 by TheBamse

[Hog_No32]

[...]

Waypoint designation. 500kts, 14000ft. I fly fairly straight and fairly level. Bombs hit several miles behind/long of designation.

[...]

 

Just to be sure there is no typo: Did you really drop them from 14000 feet (14k)? That would be a veeery high altitude for such a weapon and certainly not what it was build for. I wouldn‘t expect anything that deserves the label „accuracy“ when dropping from that altitude...except of you define accuracy by them impacting the ground...somewhere.

 

If is 1400 ft, that is more closer to the envelope you would want to use a high drag bomb but likely still too high (definitely too high in a high threat environment).

[TheBamse]

Just to be clear and repeat my post above, they were dropped in FF mode (Free Fall), not RET mode (retarded) and yes, 14k feet :)

Visual inspection by pressing F6 was made and they did indeed drop slick, as programmed, in all of the attempts.

 

Ofc I don't expect pinpoint accuracy with any unguided munitions but as with a regular Mk82s (as in non-SnakeEyes) I also wouldn't expect being several miles off-target in a no wind scenario.

[Hog_No32]

Not several miles in FF, that is indeed a tad too much.

 

Thanks for clarifying, I was under the impression you used them in retarded mode. Slick from 14k is a different story, sure.

[Eldur]

Things I noticed: They always fall long in low passes. I have to drop way before the cross comes over the target to hit.

Also, since today: CCIP calculation doesn't account for FF setting, so they come off slick, but without proper aim...