Air-Air Refueling

[Andryl]

First tries here... i'm with KC130 at 15000ft absolutely no weather... the IAS of the tanker is 260 knots. Everything goes smooothly i am very near the basket ... until hell breaks loose and huge oscillation happens. I am not sure is this wake turbulence or PIO ..

 

 

It could absolutely be turbolence generate by the tanker engines.

And it was my first issue that couldn't let me refuel in the A-10C. I tried a lot with the Hornet and finally succeeded, only in straight flight and not yet during turning... but I'm working on it.

My techinque is the following:

- let's say the tanker flies at 260 knots, I approach it at higher speed untill I'm about 1.5 - 2 NM from it. Then I slow down (even with airbreaks if necessary) and stabilize at its speed. I approach him with a speed about 5 miles higher than its (no more otherwise you overshoot it) untill I'm very near the basket. At this point I don't care too much about horizontal alignement, but only about vertical one: when I think I'm at the right height to catch the basket I quickly hit the A/P BALT. After it's very easy because you have to manage only the lateral shift and the speed. Don't hit the basket at a speed 1 - 2 knots higher than the tanker otherwise you can't slow down before it disconnects. Either I didn't find useful to engage ATC, because you will never be able to match the exact speed of the tanker.

 

 

In this way I can manage a complete refuelling in 2/3 connections. I know maybe it's not the more elegant way to do it, but I was so frustrated with my fruitless attempts with the Hog that I'm very happy now.

There is always time to work on style :D

[Brun]

It could absolutely be turbolence generate by the tanker engines.

I'm pretty sure that's not modelled.

[Alfredson007]

It could absolutely be turbolence generate by the tanker engines.

And it was my first issue that couldn't let me refuel in the A-10C. I tried a lot with the Hornet and finally succeeded, only in straight flight and not yet during turning... but I'm working on it.

My techinque is the following:

- let's say the tanker flies at 260 knots, I approach it at higher speed untill I'm about 1.5 - 2 NM from it. Then I slow down (even with airbreaks if necessary) and stabilize at its speed. I approach him with a speed about 5 miles higher than its (no more otherwise you overshoot it) untill I'm very near the basket. At this point I don't care too much about horizontal alignement, but only about vertical one: when I think I'm at the right height to catch the basket I quickly hit the A/P BALT. After it's very easy because you have to manage only the lateral shift and the speed. Don't hit the basket at a speed 1 - 2 knots higher than the tanker otherwise you can't slow down before it disconnects. Either I didn't find useful to engage ATC, because you will never be able to match the exact speed of the tanker.

 

 

In this way I can manage a complete refuelling in 2/3 connections. I know maybe it's not the more elegant way to do it, but I was so frustrated with my fruitless attempts with the Hog that I'm very happy now.

There is always time to work on style :D

 

I'll probably try that at somepoint although using AP sounds a tad cheating .. =)

 

As of now, if it is not PIO, the effect feels very artificial, i mean i am less than 5-10 meters from the basket, everything is smooth and works well, all the sudden out of nowhere huge oscillation, without any warning...

[Alfredson007]

It's just perception of relative motion and PIO.

 

You hold altitude with +-50ft precision in cruise.

You fly formation with +-3ft precision.

You connect with basket with +- radius of basket (let's say 25cm).

 

At +-25cm you can actually see how much oscillation you make.

 

Same for lateral movement.

When you cruise you do not notice 0.5 Bank angle

When you are close to basket, 0.5 bank angle will make you miss the basket.

 

Very good points.

 

I might try little curve on the joystick axis at some point, as of now i have no curves set.

[sze5003]

It could absolutely be turbolence generate by the tanker engines.

And it was my first issue that couldn't let me refuel in the A-10C. I tried a lot with the Hornet and finally succeeded, only in straight flight and not yet during turning... but I'm working on it.

My techinque is the following:

- let's say the tanker flies at 260 knots, I approach it at higher speed untill I'm about 1.5 - 2 NM from it. Then I slow down (even with airbreaks if necessary) and stabilize at its speed. I approach him with a speed about 5 miles higher than its (no more otherwise you overshoot it) untill I'm very near the basket. At this point I don't care too much about horizontal alignement, but only about vertical one: when I think I'm at the right height to catch the basket I quickly hit the A/P BALT. After it's very easy because you have to manage only the lateral shift and the speed. Don't hit the basket at a speed 1 - 2 knots higher than the tanker otherwise you can't slow down before it disconnects. Either I didn't find useful to engage ATC, because you will never be able to match the exact speed of the tanker.

 

 

In this way I can manage a complete refuelling in 2/3 connections. I know maybe it's not the more elegant way to do it, but I was so frustrated with my fruitless attempts with the Hog that I'm very happy now.

There is always time to work on style :D

What button do you map for A/P BALT hold on hotas? I couldn't find it in controls. I do a similar approach but instead I use autothrottle. I have a much easier time getting the speed of the tanker this way.

 

Your movements are actually pio just refrain from making any movements while you are right about to connect. If you have to, make sure they are super tiny movements. I added a curve of 20 on my stick. I also need to remove any deadzone because I think that still messes me up. I think on the warthog stick it's not needed.

[hornblower793]

First tries here... i'm with KC130 at 15000ft absolutely no weather... the IAS of the tanker is 260 knots. Everything goes smooothly i am very near the basket ... until hell breaks loose and huge oscillation happens. I am not sure is this wake turbulence or PIO ..

Having just been through the learning curve myself, the oscillations are almost certainly because you glance at the basket which results in a twitch of the controls followed by panic!

 

 

Focussing on the tanker pod in relation to a point on my HUD worked for me

[Andryl]

I'm pretty sure that's not modelled.

 

 

Are you sure? If I remember correctly, it's also cited in Chuck's guides.

[Andryl]

What button do you map for A/P BALT hold on hotas? I couldn't find it in controls.

 

 

I don't map it; istead I use the mouse to push the buttons in the cockpit. It's more difficult, but in this way I feel less guilty to cheat with the A/P :music_whistling::D

 

 

 

I added a curve of 20 on my stick. I also need to remove any deadzone because I think that still messes me up.

 

 

I also added a curve to my stick, but I think it depends a lot on the HOTAS you have. Maybe with a Warthog or with extensions it's not needed. Be careful to remove all deadzones, because if your Stick it's not perfect, with 0 input in the center position, the A/P won't engage.

[sze5003]

I don't map it; istead I use the mouse to push the buttons in the cockpit. It's more difficult, but in this way I feel less guilty to cheat with the A/P :music_whistling::D

 

 

 

 

 

 

I also added a curve to my stick, but I think it depends a lot on the HOTAS you have. Maybe with a Warthog or with extensions it's not needed. Be careful to remove all deadzones, because it your Stick it's not perfect, with 0 input in the center position, the A/P won't engage.

I mean you are using the autopilot either way so mapping it wouldn't matter. I will check once I remove deadzones today. I fly in VR and trying to use the mouse while staying stable and attempting to get fuel while pressing buttons and shifting tour focus can cause oscillations easily. Which is why I find using just autothrottle easier for me.

 

As for deadzones I recently got the Huey so I'm thinking the current deadzone I have on there may be making it worse for me at least attempting to learn a helicopter.

[Sandman1330]

I mean you are using the autopilot either way so mapping it wouldn't matter. I will check once I remove deadzones today. I fly in VR and trying to use the mouse while staying stable and attempting to get fuel while pressing buttons and shifting tour focus can cause oscillations easily. Which is why I find using just autothrottle easier for me.

 

As for deadzones I recently got the Huey so I'm thinking the current deadzone I have on there may be making it worse for me at least attempting to learn a helicopter.

 

OT: Dead zone in the Huey is a definite no-no, as stick “center” is entirely dependent upon the phase of flight you are in and not on the actual position of the stick

[chinpok]

I find it very easy to maintain speed, but I keep messing up on the slow-down. Approaching a KC-130 that is doing 270 kts but I'm doing 370 and I keep think "no problem, speed brake and crab.." Nope.. zoom..right past..

 

But once in pre-contact and taking fuel, you simply walk the throttles back and forth only millimeters (Warthog HOTAS for me) to maintain position. No lateral stick movement though because that will mess you all up Rudder and pitch only..

 

Anyway, works for me

 

Lot of people say it easy and I was like I must be retarded because it was very hard for me but compared to the harrier it is hard(so this is for the newbies: it is not easy :D). I play with the throttle too(back and forth) but I still find it difficult, however I can do it almost every time now.

I have the CH pro throttle and it has a quite short travel but it shouldn't matter when you "play" with it, the main problem is the lazy engine like 1-3 sec reaction time, harrier is almost instant 0.3-1 sec. I have the zoom problem too so now I approach very slowly(probably too slow) but it works.

[sze5003]

Lot of people say it easy and I was like I must be retarded because it was very hard for me but compared to the harrier it is hard(so this is for the newbies: it is not easy :D). I play with the throttle too(back and forth) but I still find it difficult, however I can do it almost every time now.

I have the CH pro throttle and it has a quite short travel but it shouldn't matter when you "play" with it, the main problem is the lazy engine like 1-3 sec reaction time, harrier is almost instant 0.3-1 sec. I have the zoom problem too so now I approach very slowly(probably too slow) but it works.

People said the same to me that it's easy when I said the A10c is easier to AAR. Gotta find the technique that works for you honestly.

[BSS_Sniper]

You guys saying you use AP to refuel, you're just making it more difficult. The refueler doesn't stay at a perfect alt, and when it turns in it's racetrack, it most definitely doesn't maintain alt. You should be able to hand fly your AAR, even in a turn. You're just hurting yourself by not working on the skills needed to handfly the plane. I know it gets frustrating, but...

[sze5003]

Unfortunately until I get a better stick and gimbal I have to use autothrottle/autopilot so I dont overshoot my corrections with the stick. Autopilot only works for a little while anyway..while you get heavy you will need to adjust speed. Plus the throttle response is very slow in the hornet which I'm sure is still WIP.

[BSS_Sniper]

Unfortunately until I get a better stick and gimbal I have to use autothrottle/autopilot so I dont overshoot my corrections with the stick. Autopilot only works for a little while anyway..while you get heavy you will need to adjust speed. Plus the throttle response is very slow in the hornet which I'm sure is still WIP.

 

 

I think people expect a jet engine to be instant, but its not. You have to plan ahead and while it's possible that it's a little slow, it's not off by what I'd consider a lot. I think people need to learn how to "bracket" the thrust levers to find a sweet spot to maintain speed while refueling.

[sze5003]

I think people expect a jet engine to be instant, but its not. You have to plan ahead and while it's possible that it's a little slow, it's not off by what I'd consider a lot. I think people need to learn how to "bracket" the thrust levers to find a sweet spot to maintain speed while refueling.

Could be my warthog throttle. I move it a tiny little bit, then the response comes 1.5 seconds later but much more than I'd expect. I'd expect 1-2 knots but I'm seeing 3-5 knots increase / decrease in each tiny movement. I do have some saturation on the throttle axis that I could put in, I heard that helps. I just haven't tried that yet.

[dolfo]

Could be my warthog throttle. I move it a tiny little bit, then the response comes 1.5 seconds later but much more than I'd expect. I'd expect 1-2 knots but I'm seeing 3-5 knots increase / decrease in each tiny movement. I do have some saturation on the throttle axis that I could put in, I heard that helps. I just haven't tried that yet.

 

I'm by no means an expert, but regarding throttle usage:

 

I find that rather than MOVING the throttle in a noticeable manner I rather apply pressure to the levers. Obviously first need to find a fuel flow that is in the ballpark, then go adjusting 100lbs up or down, on one or both engines, as required to keep the plane +-1kt from my desired speed. Warthog user here also.

[Mule]

I'm by no means an expert, but regarding throttle usage:

 

I find that rather than MOVING the throttle in a noticeable manner I rather apply pressure to the levers. Obviously first need to find a fuel flow that is in the ballpark, then go adjusting 100lbs up or down, on one or both engines, as required to keep the plane +-1kt from my desired speed. Warthog user here also.

 

Bang on. Just walk the throttles ever so slightly.

[RED]

Could be my warthog throttle. I move it a tiny little bit, then the response comes 1.5 seconds later but much more than I'd expect. I'd expect 1-2 knots but I'm seeing 3-5 knots increase / decrease in each tiny movement. I do have some saturation on the throttle axis that I could put in, I heard that helps. I just haven't tried that yet.

Did you try to walk the throttle forward?

[sze5003]

Did you try to walk the throttle forward?

Yea I have I don't see much of a response, or if I do it's really slow. I will practice some more with it and see if I am missing something. Maybe I'll reduce the warthog throttle friction.

[KungFu]

Lot of people say it easy and I was like I must be retarded because it was very hard for me but compared to the harrier it is hard(so this is for the newbies: it is not easy :D). I play with the throttle too(back and forth) but I still find it difficult, however I can do it almost every time now.

I have the CH pro throttle and it has a quite short travel but it shouldn't matter when you "play" with it, the main problem is the lazy engine like 1-3 sec reaction time, harrier is almost instant 0.3-1 sec. I have the zoom problem too so now I approach very slowly(probably too slow) but it works.

 

I find it much much easier to control the speed in the harrier. And I believe it is partly because of this:

 

 

That's the controls indication in the F18, see that the afterburner detent "area" is taking up about 20% of the usable throttle axis (in this case a warthog, but would be the same with any throttle.) Now imagine if your throttle is a lower resolution one, you lose 20% of your usable MIL power range, so the same movement with a non AB aircraft would more fine/precise

 

edit: oh and you lose about 10% on the bottom end as well. (notice you can move the throttle quite a bit before the slider moves), so about 30% taken away from the MIL range for the 18 compared to harrier.

 

I am working on some curves to reduce the effect, but just keep the above in mind.

Edited June 28, 2018 by KungFu

[Mad_Max2]

Yea I have I don't see much of a response, or if I do it's really slow. I will practice some more with it and see if I am missing something. Maybe I'll reduce the warthog throttle friction.

 

 

Try reducing it for sure. I like my throttle a little more firm but with carrier landing and AAR in the hornet I have been having good results with less friction.

 

 

 

As far as getting better at it. Make a mission. Plop any plane you want. Give it a path. Fly formation with it. When I really struggled with AAR, I always saw ppl saying learn to fly formation with the tanker before trying to tank. Good advice, just not for me. I would do this, get antsy, and try to tank lol, ultimately failing. I then took the tanker out of the equation entirely and just worked on formation with random planes doing random routes. Came back to tanking and it was night and day. Learn formation flying and you will learn AAR.

Edited June 28, 2018 by Mad_Max2

[Andryl]

You guys saying you use AP to refuel, you're just making it more difficult. The refueler doesn't stay at a perfect alt, and when it turns in it's racetrack, it most definitely doesn't maintain alt. You should be able to hand fly your AAR, even in a turn. You're just hurting yourself by not working on the skills needed to handfly the plane. I know it gets frustrating, but...

 

 

I know you're right, but simply I cannot keep under control altitude, lateral shift and throttle in the same time yet. If I concentrate myself in keeping the correct attitude (expecially on the vertical line) I loose control on the throttle very often and disconnect from the basket. I have the same difficulties if I try to train in close formation with another aircraft (the worst moment is when it starts turning: I loose the distance ever time).

Therefore I'm trying to become proficient in throttle control: when I'm able to control it as a second nature, I'll stop using AP and concentrate on stick movements. I don't know if it'll work, but please feel free to give me any hint you think it's useful. (and btw, I don't fly online, simply because I have to pause the simulator very often due to family/childrens).

[sze5003]

I find formation flying with people online, etc I'm fine. But tanking seems a bit tougher. I use the ATC just to help with the throttle. Keeping distance and lining up seems to be the easier part as long as it's small adjustments.

[BSS_Sniper]

I'm by no means an expert, but regarding throttle usage:

 

I find that rather than MOVING the throttle in a noticeable manner I rather apply pressure to the levers. Obviously first need to find a fuel flow that is in the ballpark, then go adjusting 100lbs up or down, on one or both engines, as required to keep the plane +-1kt from my desired speed. Warthog user here also.

 

 

That's what you'll do in the end, if you understand what bracketing is, but if you're watching fuel flow, i mean...